Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #14

[inkpink]

This is an intriguing case which is just starting to gain some traction due to her daughter's relentless efforts.

Here is the facebook page:

Missing Person Marion Barter

...and a just released podcast 'The Lady Vanishes'

Left Behind | The Lady Vanishes on acast

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[Sillybilly]

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[Meligator]

I’m wondering why there aren’t records or Marion (and RB) entering UK/EU. Do those countries not keep/use passenger records (they must) or are they not sharing those with AU? We don’t know for sure what day Marion arrived in UK (if she did indeed fly into Heathrow) or what day she left.

 

[Bagpus]

Re relationship between RB
and link to the real FR
Just a theory
Marion now has the initials of the real FR
RB asks her to go to the bank/ other financial institute in Luxembourg or Belgium to withdraw funds from his own “accounts “ or co sign as spouse as he doesn’t have his papers with him to verify identity??
It would be interesting to know if there had been a fraud/ attempted fraud on real FR accounts??
Marion finds out RB isn’t really FR after putting information together in Australia?
Something happens??

Also interested that when TLV podcast speaks to MC ( episode 11 or 12) about Florabella Remakel from Australia who is missing that her memory doesn’t not twig that she had an affair with a man that now lives in Australia who was ( at least by her evidence we have heard now) a con man?
IMO/MOO

Especially if the name is so rare.

 

[Meligator]

If DH claims they went to Tasmania because of a sick uncle and there is no sick uncle — this seems the most overt (and provably false) lie implicating DH. But sometimes people use the term Uncle imprecisely (to refer to an older distant cousin or great uncle, for example).

It is interesting that he mentioned his sister in law discussing the pod cast b/c she (I believe) was living in Byron bay around the time Marion was withdrawing money there. If DH was involved (or at least aware), was the whole family?

I tend to think RB was a one man show and DH got very comfortable not asking any questions, but an overt lie about an Uncle in Tasmania would be harder to dismiss.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

I’m wondering why there aren’t records or Marion (and RB) entering UK/EU. Do those countries not keep/use passenger records (they must) or are they not sharing those with AU? We don’t know for sure what day Marion arrived in UK (if she did indeed fly into Heathrow) or what day she left.

Sadly and annoyingly UK records are nowhere near as extensive as Australia. Data protection time limits have also destroyed many of them. I’m pretty certain Marion flew into Heathrow from her letter to Sally but did RLW (as his passport was) fly into Amsterdam and worked his way to her via the Hook of Holland ferry?

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

Not sure if discussed before but who was the lady who stood up and walked out when AC started reading out the love letter at the inquest?

 

[Whonose]

The way I interpreted it was that you need to supply some ID documents in that name to get a passport and that one of the documents that she supplied was an INT DL and so that box was ticked. As the documents would have to have been in the Ramakel name then it would have to match. I don't really follow what you mean by "So is the process for getting a passport include an application for an INT DL?"
INT Driving Permits are obtained through the state motoring association in this case RAQC.

Ok thanks, this is how I understood it as well. What you have described to get the INT licence is what I thought also. I was confused as it was on the post I replied to that stated MB indicated she was going to get an INT license by ticking the box and the question on that post asked did the passport office grant the INT licence. I don’t know how to tag that post.

 

[Meligator]

Especially if the name is so rare.

From MC’s perspective (based on what we know)—he hadn’t stolen anything from her. RB was just a guy who was super into her and hid that he was married. Wrong yes, but not so unusual and not necessarily red flag for a super fraud like RB. She may just now be putting it all together.

I agree it’s surprising she didn’t think of RB when the podcast called, but the focus of the questions were on FR. She likely had no idea RB was using fake names, including her ex.

 

[lrb66]

From MC’s perspective (based on what we know)—he hadn’t stolen anything from her. RB was just a guy who was super into her and hid that he was married. Wrong yes, but not so unusual and not necessarily red flag for a super fraud like RB. She may just now be putting it all together.

I agree it’s surprising she didn’t think of RB when the podcast called, but the focus of the questions were on FR. She likely had no idea RB was using fake names, including her ex.

 

[BonnieB]

I might be missing something here but most documents, passport, drivers licence, bank accounts etc have a person's full name. There must be thousands of people with the same "J.M.F. Smith" for example.
What benefit would there be having Marion's initials match FNR's? Are there some official documents overseas that just have initials and the surname?

 

[lrb66]

I also imagine a phone call between the real FR and MC after they had both been asked about Marion ( Florabella Remakel) missing since trip from Australia.
They both still live in Luxembourg- it’s a very small place.
Neither has ever been to Australia??
FR says he has never been to Australia
Mc says neither have I but I dated someone after you who moved to Australia.
Remember you met him a few times?
He was such a con man
I wonder whether he is involved??
All MOO

 

[ruby925]

Sadly and annoyingly UK records are nowhere near as extensive as Australia. Data protection time limits have also destroyed many of them. I’m pretty certain Marion flew into Heathrow from her letter to Sally but did RLW (as his passport was) fly into Amsterdam and worked his way to her via the Hook of Holland ferry?

Maybe RB didn't even get to UK and meet MB? She is in UK, he is in mainland Europe 'visiting family'. They are in contact by phone. Marion tries to access her money via Barclays and finds she cannot because her account is still in the name of Barter...and this will apply to her accounts in Aus too. RB advises her to go back to Aus for a short time to sort out her finances. RB meanwhile also flies back to Aus as this trip has not gone to plan, except for the 'visiting family' aspect and all the other things he recollected so clearly (!). They meet up in Aus and something goes badly wrong for MB.
Conflicting opinions I know, but assuming MB returns to Aus, it can only be to enable access to her money. Even if she rumbled RB, her money was in the name of MB and he couldn't access it alone.

 

[KeenSleuth17]

It has been narrowed down to an eye check because only this service is claimable on Medicare. Glasses would require payment (and claim on private health fund if you wished to get money back) plus it would require time for the glasses to be prepared and a return visit to collect them anyway. The Grafton records show one visit for eye exam only.

The photos from the NAA aren’t great though. I wouldn’t recognize him from them.

I think RB could of easily got DdH to go to the eye appointment in Grafton without her even knowing she was using MB Medicare card. Wouldn’t suprise me if he is the type to tell her to sit down and wait while he fills out forms / pays etc.

Also the Medicare card isn’t needed. You just need the numbers and exp. New clients usually fill out paper forms with questions like name / dob/ address blah blah and you just fill out the Medicare details on the paperwork.

I haven’t had a psychical Medicare card in over ten years, just a photo of it. Never needed one.

My gut feeling is that there’s more to the eye appt than just a routine check up for either MB or DdH… and I sadly don’t think MB made it to September 1997, so I think it was someone else using her card at that appt. I feel like the eye appt has something to do with either creating smoke, proof of life, etc OR is to do with obtaining a disguise, maybe for DdH to get for example, coloured contacts to make her eyes match Marion’s (Duno DdH eye colour but just as an example) so that she could pose as MB particularly for the October withdrawal.

The other thing I wonder is, if the eye appt is in fact an innocent part of the story, if for some reason the appt was processed late and it actually occured before MB went overseas but it wasn’t processed correctly through Medicare so they had to process it down the track when reconciling their systems, hence it shows as September but wasn’t really? Just an idea.

 

[BonnieB]

Just listened to the podcast interview with MC and I have to agree that she sounds genuine when asked about Florabella Remakel. She could have just hung up but seemed willing to try and help. If she wasn't aware of RB's scam with Marion, the only hint to connect RB to the questioning would have been the mention of Australia. But I'm also keeping in mind that she WAS an actress.

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

So thinking the purpose of taking JO overseas was to get her title deeds. But what was the purpose of taking Marion overseas. I mean if he told her to sell her house and he would buy her a school in Europe so they could start a new life…by the time they left he already had all her valuable antiques and could have certainly come up with a way to get her money into his account before their trip—then he could have just done all that and skipped town without going overseas. Why go?

Funny. I was thinking the exact same thing today. THIS is the $64,000 Question, @Meligator. Maybe the key to everything. How does Marion's story fit JO's?

Here's my take: the big idea was to have the Australian money available to Marion in Europe. Candy from a babe. Not documents but nice, cold hard cash. The Big Sting. That way, RB could propose a school to buy or a yacht to sail the Mediterraena, or a newlywed house in Luxembourg to buy with Marion's ready cash. (While his is tied up in some other legal venture, he explains. . .) RB will takes the money, vanish, and Marion is left with nothing and no legal means of going after RB.

[ So the Barclay's is aligned with the Australian bank, so the idea is Marion could have withdrawn all her money through Barclay's.]

So, Marion changes her name, as suggested, it's all good! He's got her in Europe where he wants her. Now he can tell her there's an amazing deal to purchase, they need the cash for the deal. BUT a hiccup. Marion can't withdraw her Australian funds from the Barclays as RB had planned. Either there is a limit on withdrawals or the new name has screwed things. RB is angry at Marion, and the patina begins to wear off. RB tells Marion she must return to Australia to withdraw the funds immediately or they'll miss the big deal! Marion complies. Arrives in Australia to withdraw funds or set straight the bank setup so she can withdraw from Europe, planning it will take days -- BUT she can't arrange it. Either the name change has screwed up the banking situation or the way she deposited the money in the high-earning account. Marion's (really RB's) only option is slow withdrawals. Time drags by. RB waiting and waiting to get his hands on all the $$.

Meantime, Marion begins to weary of the whole thing. She' runs a few errands. Tries to kill time. She's alone, handing money over to a man who is increasingly impatient and cruel, and she begins to doubt everything. Who does she call? She has no one to share this horrible situation with. Where to begin?

And meantime, RB knows he's screwed up. He didn't think of everything. Now Marion's back in Australia where he doesn't really want her. Of course, he can't blame himself, so he blames Marion. It's a perfect storm once he has the money. Or maybe just part of the money. Perhaps the charade of a fake Marion does happen but it's after she's dead and RB can't resist draining out every last penny. His wife is called in to perform, and she does.

 

[ruby925]

Funny. I was thinking the exact same thing today. THIS is the $64,000 Question, @Meligator. Maybe the key to everything. How does Marion's story fit JO's?

Here's my take: the big idea was to have the Australian money available to Marion in Europe. Candy from a babe. Not documents but nice, cold hard cash. The Big Sting. That way, RB could propose a school to buy or a yacht to sail the Mediterraena, or a newlywed house in Luxembourg to buy with Marion's ready cash. (While his is tied up in some other legal venture, he explains. . .) RB will takes the money, vanish, and Marion is left with nothing and no legal means of going after RB.

[ So the Barclay's is aligned with the Australian bank, so the idea is Marion could have withdrawn all her money through Barclay's.]

So, Marion changes her name, as suggested, it's all good! He's got her in Europe where he wants her. Now he can tell her there's an amazing deal to purchase, they need the cash for the deal. BUT a hiccup. Marion can't withdraw her Australian funds from the Barclays as RB had planned. Either there is a limit on withdrawals or the new name has screwed things. RB is angry at Marion, and the patina begins to wear off. RB tells Marion she must return to Australia to withdraw the funds immediately or they'll miss the big deal! Marion complies. Arrives in Australia to withdraw funds or set straight the bank setup so she can withdraw from Europe, planning it will take days -- BUT she can't arrange it. Either the name change has screwed up the banking situation or the way she deposited the money in the high-earning account. Marion's (really RB's) only option is slow withdrawals. Time drags by. RB waiting and waiting to get his hands on all the $$.

Meantime, Marion begins to weary of the whole thing. She' runs a few errands. Tries to kill time. She's alone, handing money over to a man who is increasingly impatient and cruel, and she begins to doubt everything. Who does she call? She has no one to share this horrible situation with. Where to begin?

And meantime, RB knows he's screwed up. He didn't think of everything. Now Marion's back in Australia where he doesn't really want her. Of course, he can't blame himself, so he blames Marion. It's a perfect storm once he has the money. Or maybe just part of the money. Perhaps the charade of a fake Marion does happen but it's after she's dead and RB can't resist draining out every last penny. His wife is called in to perform, and she does.

RB is the ultimate master of name changes and all the associated dodges. So presumably he would have known that Marion would not be able to access her money as FNMR. In this scenario, either he thought MB had changed her bank accounts to FNMR (which would have been a red flag when Sally started her enquiries that year) or he did not instigate the name change to FNMR, thinking MB could transfer her money without returning to Aus. For MB to vanish without trace at that point, the name change was brilliant to stop her being found (if your name is RB) but had to be a sticking point re the money. If we knew who booked MBs airline ticket ex Aus, we would know for definite whether RB knew about the name change.

 

[Meligator]

Maybe he takes them overseas primarily as a mean to better secure their trust. No reason to suspect he’s not serious/able to buy a school overseas/start a new life. JO wasn’t on to him even after he abandoned her in UK. Wasn’t until she found her documents missing that she realized something was wrong. The trip overseas probably offers a lot in terms if credibility, trust & emotional investment in the fairy tale.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

Maybe he takes them overseas primarily as a mean to better secure their trust. No reason to suspect he’s not serious/able to buy a school overseas/start a new life. JO wasn’t on to him even after he abandoned her in UK. Wasn’t until she found her documents missing that she realized something was wrong. The trip overseas probably offers a lot in terms if credibility, trust & emotional investment in the fairy tale.

I also believe travelling through various villages and towns (often rural) across South East England that are unfamiliar to the victim in such a short period of time is to disorientate them in some way too.

He is also close to airport and ferry transport links to mainland Europe to help aid his ‘escape’ back to Australia.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

He has been asked at the inquests more than once how many times did he meet Marion (4 according to him and no doubt a lie) but nobody has ever asked him how many times did he speak to her over the telephone from Feb to June 1997? I’m assuming this figure would be a lot higher giving him more opportunities to coerce, manipulate and love-bomb Marion?