Found Deceased Australia - Russell Hill, 74, & Carol Clay, 72, Wonnangatta Valley, 20 Mar 2020 #5 *charges*

[JBowie]

Police await DNA results of human remains found during search for campers

The human remains found in the search for missing Victorian campers Carol Clay and Russell Hill may take investigators several weeks to identify.

In cases I have followed overseas, even when bodies are in terrible condition, the teeth survive intact and dental records as well as DNA extracted from teeth often provide police with the best means of identification.

 

[Zanzibar]

Just because it's interesting to me how police activities are covered by the media: I don't believe police would conduct an initial search for bodies by using an excavator (unless they knew the perp had used an excavator to bury them.)

That would completely destroy the crime scene and the forensic evidence. It might actually damage the remains, and they can't reconstruct what the site was like before being scooped up and dumped.

IMO, only after they had found enough to learn what forensics were going to be available, and to determine there would be no significant/meaningful damage to evidence, would they bring in excavators.

JMO

My husband is able to scrape the topsoil off clear ground a centimeter at a time, the operators can be quite skillful and gentle. That said, they may have used the excavator just to move some of the undergrowth to open up the area.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Your wording was fine, Amber. You were giving your opinion in a general way as we all do.

I didn't mean to take you up! Sorry for the poor wording. I was just speculating purely for myself as to why he has retained such counsel and what it means.

 

[Kemug]

It may not be a long wait for identification - IIRC, for Brian Laundrie it only took a day.

 

[sleuther123]

Thank you to all the super sleuths out there for your good wishes. We (the camping group) have long held the belief that we would never see Russell again. So todays news is a bit of a double edged sword. If the remains are infact those of Russell and Carol (we don't really know yet but the chances are very likely that they are) at least we have closure, but it also means that the last glimmer of hope has been extinguished.

I’m sorry for your loss, motomike.

I keep thinking how lovely it is that Russell has a friend speaking here for him.

Thank you for your detailed insight on the case and the great hobbies people enjoy in the high country!

 

[Satchie]

It may not be a long wait for identification - IIRC, for Brian Laundrie it only took a day.

Yes, I doubt they will make the family wait potentially weeks or months for the identification. I think what could take time is the cause/manner of death.

ETA: BL was by dental records.

Sadly and significantly, it seems there might not be intact remains to use dental records. However, DNA can still be retrieved.

 

[JayWill]

I’m sorry for your loss, motomike.

I keep thinking how lovely it is that Russell has a friend speaking here for him.

Thank you for your detailed insight on the case and the great hobbies people enjoy in the high country!

That is a very thoughtful post.

 

[sleuther123]

Further to today's developments, I wanted to share some screen grabs from the 60 mins story. If one cuts through the usual 60 mins puffery and quizzical grimaces of the reporter, there was this one shot of a wall of posters. How much of this is staged to rattle the suspect has not been stated. But, there is this one poster that shows red and blue dots on a map. This appears to be a map of the Dargo - Mt Hotham area with the Wonnangatta valley.
What is interesting are the two red dots - on the extreme left. Speculation: thiese represent the camp site and possibly the Myrtleford gate.
The line of blue dots appear to follow the Dargo High Plains road.
The reason this is important is that each dot represents a data point. Do the blue dots represent a sighting of the vehicle, verified by say dash camera?
It seems that these maps show the police had tracked a vehicle along the Dargo High Plains road to Mt Hotham. But at the bottom of the screen grabs are other blue dots.

View attachment 324554

View attachment 324555

View attachment 324556

View attachment 324559

On the topic of how VicPol pinpointed the site, I’ve attached a Googlemap approximation of the most direct route from the campsite to the site of the remains. Comparing that to the maps Arboreal posted before, they seem to show a data ping (one! And still assuming that they were data pings) on that route..

 

[Arboreal]

In cases I have followed overseas, even when bodies are in terrible condition, the teeth survive intact and dental records as well as DNA extracted from teeth often provide police with the best means of identification.

Yes. That is what they are looking for.
When I was a about oh, 12 or so, we had a family friend who was interested in pathology professionally. He told me about the famous UK pathologists - Bernard Spillsbury and Keith Simpson and introduced me to a book, I can't remember the title now, but it detailed many famous cases, mostly UK, but also some Continental cases, in the development of forensic science. It sparked a life long interest in the science, but also the application of logic to these cases. Anyway, one of the cases was the famous Acid Bath Murders. The murderer was tried and convicted, even though there were no bodies and all the police had was a murder scene, some barrels and acid: "Investigation of the area by pathologist Keith Simpson revealed 28 pounds of human body fat, part of a human foot, human gallstones and part of a denture which was later identified by Mrs. Durand-Deacon's dentist during the trial."

 

[Arboreal]

I didn't mean to take you up! Sorry for the poor wording. I was just speculating purely for myself as to why he has retained such counsel and what it means.

No worries at all, Amber. I should have been clearer.

 

[Arboreal]

Has there been any mention of the sleeping bags near the remains? Perhaps the sleeping bags were burnt, hence the fire expert being on site? I don’t really want to think too graphically about other things. But regarding sleeping bags, they would stand out and increase the risk of being found so to me it makes sense that they would have been destroyed. I can’t imagine they would deteriorate naturally over this short period of time but I’m no expert. IMO.

I agree; I'm trying not to think about what might have happened, but my friends here, including a young lass studying criminology, keep talking about it!
I think folks discussed this previously; but police said they were missing and friends of Mr Hill said he had sleeping bags and camped with them. In a fire the metal pieces will likely survive, such as parts of the zip. there will also be residue from the burning nylon and other chemical residue that indicate the bags were consumed in the flames.
On the flames question. A fire expert appeared on the Ch.9 Under Investigation program and tested material identical to that in Mr Hill's tent. He found that unless a flame was applied directly and constantly to the material, it would quickly stop burning and the flames would be extinguished. The must have been, he surmised, some fuel in the ten to keep it burning and reduce the ten to ashes. It must have been quite hot, given the twisted metal and damage to the battery. But Police said they had not identified the fuel. One of the folks here who has attended gas bottle fires doubts that the gas bottles tossed into the tend would do he damage. Speculating, we wondered if Mr Hill took additional fuel with him and the tend was doused with this. But some of the ashes looked like wood and twigs had been thrown into the tent.

 

[PIMaz]

they don’t start with a murder charge. if they didn’t have enough to prove murder they would have charged him with manslaughter to begin with as it is easier to prove manslaughter than it is to prove murder.

I tend to agree with you, if you remember Boris Resevski case they started with murder and plea bargain down to manslaughter. I hope this does not happen in this case.

 

[sleuther123]

This might be better…



So what I’m getting at is that I don’t think that GL told them..

 

[Kemug]

I have so much sympathy for the families of the victims, and particularly for Mrs Hill. I also have a lot of sympathy for GK's family, especially as they may also receive some unwarranted criticism, and much less sympathy than the other families.

 

[Arboreal]

Here is a brain teaser, fellow WebSleuths. [But people with local knowledge like Motomile and Brumby Jack, will likely know the answer.]
Teaser: Where, in the Union Spur-Providence Spur tracks, is the burial site? See map with A,B, C marked.
Erin Pearson says the site is a 20-metre-square area on the Union Spur Track near the Providence Spur Track.
In her article, Ms Pearson provides a photo showing the Providence Spur sign, pointing right and in the background, a blue police gazebo and police car. [Photo below]
In her article Ms Pearson also provides a video, that shows the excavation. It is also on her twitter. If you look at the video, on the LHS appears to be a blue police gazebo. [Screenshot below]
In a video on youtube, 10 News (time: 1.30) shows the same Providence Spur sign, this time pointing left. It is the same sign as in Ms Pearsons article. However, we can also see a portaloo, to the right of the sign. The portaloo may well not have been there when the photo in Ms Pearson's article was taken.
Also in this video, is a shot of the excavation scene and just visible on the LHS, circled, is a white gazebo.
In a Ch.9 video, also on youtube, we can see an aerial shot that shows the portaloo on the left and the blue Police gazebo on the upper right and a second, white one.
It seems that the sign is at point A in the map; the portaloo at point B and the blue police gazebo at point C.
We do not know if all these photos are of the same site. However apart from the Ch.9 and Ch.10, there is a Ch.7 video, also on youtube (at 1.50) which seems to show the white gazebo.
a lot of this footage has been taken from, it seems a single source and shared by the TV stations.
The question is: where is the burial site? First issue is whether all these videos and photos pertain to the one site. Police were excavating in several areas. There are in some photos a blue and white gazebo and at other times only a blue or only a white.
Second, the gazebos have to be on the RHS, unless the map is not accurate in its alignment of roads and point C is further to the left. That would mean the burial site is below A. It does not seem possible for the site to be on Providence spur, as that is a dead end and in two videos a vehicle is running towards the excavation site. As well, reports have stated the site is on the Union Spur track.
The other puzzle is the location. Why not drive up the Providence Spur - that is very private. Or turn the corner, swing right, into the next section of the Union Spur? That also afford some privacy for the task.
Any thoughts?
I am leaning at the moment to the site being below A.

 

[sleuther123]

Here is a brain teaser, fellow WebSleuths. [But people with local knowledge like Motomile and Brumby Jack, will likely know the answer.]
Teaser: Where, in the Union Spur-Providence Spur tracks, is the burial site? See map with A,B, C marked.
Erin Pearson says the site is a 20-metre-square area on the Union Spur Track near the Providence Spur Track.
In her article, Ms Pearson provides a photo showing the Providence Spur sign, pointing right and in the background, a blue police gazebo and police car. [Photo below]
In her article Ms Pearson also provides a video, that shows the excavation. It is also on her twitter. If you look at the video, on the LHS appears to be a blue police gazebo. [Screenshot below]
In a video on youtube, 10 News (time: 1.30) shows the same Providence Spur sign, this time pointing left. It is the same sign as in Ms Pearsons article. However, we can also see a portaloo, to the right of the sign. The portaloo may well not have been there when the photo in Ms Pearson's article was taken.
Also in this video, is a shot of the excavation scene and just visible on the LHS, circled, is a white gazebo.
In a Ch.9 video, also on youtube, we can see an aerial shot that shows the portaloo on the left and the blue Police gazebo on the upper right and a second, white one.
It seems that the sign is at point A in the map; the portaloo at point B and the blue police gazebo at point C.
We do not know if all these photos are of the same site. However apart from the Ch.9 and Ch.10, there is a Ch.7 video, also on youtube (at 1.50) which seems to show the white gazebo.
a lot of this footage has been taken from, it seems a single source and shared by the TV stations.
The question is: where is the burial site? First issue is whether all these videos and photos pertain to the one site. Police were excavating in several areas. There are in some photos a blue and white gazebo and at other times only a blue or only a white.
Second, the gazebos have to be on the RHS, unless the map is not accurate in its alignment of roads and point C is further to the left. That would mean the burial site is below A. It does not seem possible for the site to be on Providence spur, as that is a dead end and in two videos a vehicle is running towards the excavation site. As well, reports have stated the site is on the Union Spur track.
The other puzzle is the location. Why not drive up the Providence Spur - that is very private. Or turn the corner, swing right, into the next section of the Union Spur? That also afford some privacy for the task.
Any thoughts?
I am leaning at the moment to the site being below A.

View attachment 324807

View attachment 324808


View attachment 324806

View attachment 324809

View attachment 324810

View attachment 324811

View attachment 324815

Great mapping, Arboreal!

I agree - it would seem more private to go up the Providence Spur track, as the Union Spur track is a *relative* thoroughfare. I wonder how close the media would be allowed to get to the actual site of the remains, as opposed to just the sites where they’re looking for more evidence. I’m leaning towards north-east of C, without much concrete evidence to back that hunch up.

I added some thoughts to one of the photos, because I couldn’t help myself..

 

[sleuther123]

Also, to add to the pinging data - I know that it was a pretty rough estimate but maybe it gave them a smaller area. Although (and yeah, I’m backtracking) it was pretty quick that they located the spot, soon after talking to him. Anyway, time will tell.

 

[sleuther123]

Here is a brain teaser, fellow WebSleuths. [But people with local knowledge like Motomile and Brumby Jack, will likely know the answer.]
Teaser: Where, in the Union Spur-Providence Spur tracks, is the burial site? See map with A,B, C marked.
Erin Pearson says the site is a 20-metre-square area on the Union Spur Track near the Providence Spur Track.
In her article, Ms Pearson provides a photo showing the Providence Spur sign, pointing right and in the background, a blue police gazebo and police car. [Photo below]
In her article Ms Pearson also provides a video, that shows the excavation. It is also on her twitter. If you look at the video, on the LHS appears to be a blue police gazebo. [Screenshot below]
In a video on youtube, 10 News (time: 1.30) shows the same Providence Spur sign, this time pointing left. It is the same sign as in Ms Pearsons article. However, we can also see a portaloo, to the right of the sign. The portaloo may well not have been there when the photo in Ms Pearson's article was taken.
Also in this video, is a shot of the excavation scene and just visible on the LHS, circled, is a white gazebo.
In a Ch.9 video, also on youtube, we can see an aerial shot that shows the portaloo on the left and the blue Police gazebo on the upper right and a second, white one.
It seems that the sign is at point A in the map; the portaloo at point B and the blue police gazebo at point C.
We do not know if all these photos are of the same site. However apart from the Ch.9 and Ch.10, there is a Ch.7 video, also on youtube (at 1.50) which seems to show the white gazebo.
a lot of this footage has been taken from, it seems a single source and shared by the TV stations.
The question is: where is the burial site? First issue is whether all these videos and photos pertain to the one site. Police were excavating in several areas. There are in some photos a blue and white gazebo and at other times only a blue or only a white.
Second, the gazebos have to be on the RHS, unless the map is not accurate in its alignment of roads and point C is further to the left. That would mean the burial site is below A. It does not seem possible for the site to be on Providence spur, as that is a dead end and in two videos a vehicle is running towards the excavation site. As well, reports have stated the site is on the Union Spur track.
The other puzzle is the location. Why not drive up the Providence Spur - that is very private. Or turn the corner, swing right, into the next section of the Union Spur? That also afford some privacy for the task.
Any thoughts?
I am leaning at the moment to the site being below A.

View attachment 324807

View attachment 324808


View attachment 324806

View attachment 324809

View attachment 324810

View attachment 324811

View attachment 324815

I think that the aerial shot showed two blue gazebos, the second one with some reflection. I thought I saw a white one initially, but having just re-checked, they look to be blue with reflection.

Or will this be like the blue/white dress internet meme conundrum?

 

[SouthAussie]

Regarding the trailer, if he sold it, he must have sold it unregistered because you would usually just transfer the reg to the new owner, so the plate should really be the same. But obviously somethings happened there because a simple search on VicRoads would have found the new owner in a flash. However I’m not convinced he did sell it, because the person who bought it would surely recognise his picture in the news? I doubt it went interstate because all the borders have been shut for a very long time during the last 18 months. I know I wouldn’t have gone through the hassle of getting an interstate travel permit just to buy a cheap trailer. JMO.

Maybe he destroyed/dumped his trailer, and told everyone else he sold it on Gumtree.

Maybe he doesn't want to fess up that he destroyed/dumped it (and be pressured into divulging the location of any remnants) due to that making him look really guilty of transporting Russell and Carol in it.

 

[Arboreal]

Also, to add to the pinging data - I know that it was a pretty rough estimate but maybe it gave them a smaller area. Although (and yeah, I’m backtracking) it was pretty quick that they located the spot, soon after talking to him. Anyway, time will tell.

Tracking people by Mobile is accurate down to some low tens of metres, and possible even more accurate.
I just looked at the mobile coverage data for the area where the bodies were buried.
According to the maps, Vodaphone has the best coverage; Telstra the next and Optus last. However, if the person in this area had roaming turned on then in would be possible to obtain quite accurate movement data. Additionally, if the person had a satellite phone turned on that too can provide location data.
When earlier searches were done, it involved an entire road, such as the Cynthia. But this was exceedingly specific: 20m square.
There are two options, I think:
1. the accused provided the detail.
2. after arrest and police seizure of vehicle, phone, tablet and so on (inc. say a fitbit or smart watch), it would show movement down to the metre.