Found Deceased Australia - Russell Hill, 74, & Carol Clay, 72, Wonnangatta Valley, 20 Mar 2020 #5 *charges*

[bearbear]

Given what I've seen of traditional funeral pyres, it takes a pretty big bundle of combustible material to effectively burn corpses and I think I'd expect more residue at the site.

However, I don't know what the perpetrator tried to do with fire, other than probably hope to destroy what he may have considered obvious evidence.

Although the fire suggests that something violent has occurred there, has the possibility been discussed that it might have been an accidental byproduct of an altercation? Primus type stove and/or lamp knocked over into tent?

unless they were shot in their tent and bodies dragged out in their sleeping bags to be disposed of further away? fire was to destroy any blood or perp dna?

 

[Arboreal]

The area bottom left is blurred. The shadow of a man standing is seen.
View attachment 324967
Police discovered human remains during the now-concluded search. (Nine)

Police search for missing campers over after remains found

I posted a bunch of photos earlier @#797. That blue gazebo is not likely covering the actual burial site. The photos reeased, and attributed to AAP, show the backhoe, forensic scientists sifting earth on the RHS; and on the LHS, further down, the blue topped gazebo. These structures are usually where the scientists set up tables and phonographic equipment to do the initial processing of any finds. Forensic tents tend to be enclosed and white and used where there is a substantial site: a body or samples, like blood.

 

[Arboreal]

I've been working on the assumption that their bodies were burned in the campsite fire before being moved to this site

I too had been wondering just that. I'd read about how difficult it is to destroy bodies by incineration. In India they use quite large pyres of wood. So, I suspected the bodies were removed to another spot and buried and when found, there would be large skeletal remains, and possibly glasses, rings, and crowns, dentures and artificial joints. I did not think that we'd see police looking for bone fragments and having to sift soil. How that came about is too horrible to contemplate.

 

[Motomike]

I did mean the tent fire. My assumption wasn't based on knowledge of the likely behaviour of fire at that campsite. I wondered if person hoped the tent fire would develop into a bush fire that completely consumed tent, bodies, vehicle and surrounding area but then moved the bodies when the fire didn't spread further.

The tent was in a mostly cleared area so if a bushfire was started by the tent I dont think there would be significantly more damage than what occured.

 

[Arboreal]

Yeah thats right, and it was probably me who said that the gate is roughly 40 to 50m back along the Wonnangatta Track before you get to the helipad.


Nah none of that matters coz Hummffray River track and Riley’s track were both closed because of the fires.

I went looking and found an old announcement on Locked Diff Lifestyle on fb. I’ll condense and quote the relevant Alpine part:

“FIRE AFFECTED PARKS
Last updated: 4.15pm 24 March 2020
The majority of the Alpine National Park remains closed, but some areas are reopening. Check the information below for details.
Southern Alps
Access to the Wonnangatta Valley is permitted via Zeka Spur Track, Herne Spur Track and Wombat Range Track only.
The following tracks and visitor areas within the Southern Alps section of the Alpine National Park are closed:

Northern access to the Wonnangatta Valley from Wonnangatta Track (Myrtleford Track) and via the Hummffray River Track.”

(then further down it talks about the Barry Mountains section and says the following are closed)

“The northern access to the Wonnangatta Valley including Wonnangatta Track, Riley’s Track, Hummffray River Track and Whites Track”.

So considering this is an update from 24 March, then this is all relevant for 4 days earlier when Russell and Carol went missing.

Brumby Jack
Thanks you so much for clarifying that, which is really helpful. Your information makes it certain that the person who was up at the Myrtleford gate, descended back into the valley. It does not seem he took the Zeka track, being at night and he was towing a trailer, which is difficult on that track. So, he drove across the track on the valley floor and exited as you say. This explains why on April 26, 2021, as a result of information obtained from previous searches detectives were reported to have returned to search the Dargo High Plains Road, Cynthia Range Track, Herne Spur Track and the Wonnangatta Track. Cadaver dogs are unleashed to scour the search zone but no remains are found.
I apologise for not linking to your post about the location of the Myrtleford gate; I could not locate it yesterday in my frenzy of writing. But found it just now, @356.

 

[Satchie]

Hi Motomike
Thanks for posting that photo and your generousity in answering questions. Each photo and post you make, amplifies the terrible nature of this tragedy. But I can see you have a great bunch of mutually supportive blokes which is really important at any time but more so at times like these.

I agree, it seems to me Russell had a lifetime of great experiences out in the bush, even at that campsite. I don't believe whatever happened in the one encounter on that night, erases all the good times you shared together.

 

[Arboreal]

IMO if the bodies were burnt at the campsite there would be some remains left in the file as I doubt someone could have removed it all and VICPOL would have reported the find last year.

In the 22 april 2020 VicPOL press conference, (@#851) the police had examined the site and did not reveal they found anything in the charred tent site, certainly not human remains. The police said they were mystified by the disappearance of Mr Hill and Ms Clay but I suspect that at this juncture the police were turning to the view that Mr Hill and Ms Clay met with foul play.

 

[Arboreal]

Yes I know she did, but didn't know if that was public knowledge so did not mention it, just in case

On one of the TV programs, I think Ch.9, one of Mr Hill's daughters said her mother listened in as did and the president of the radio club. I'll check.

 

[Arboreal]

unless they were shot in their tent and bodies dragged out in their sleeping bags to be disposed of further away? fire was to destroy any blood or perp dna?

I am not attracted to the death by gunshot theory. Apparently a lot of camp furniture was thrown into the tent and that too was consumed in the blaze. So, I do think that the tent fire was intended to conceal the manner of death - possibly involving a lot of blood - and the perpetrator's DNA and finger prints, which may be not only in the tent but on the camp furniture.
As for the sleeping bags, there has been no mention, publicly at least, that remnants were found at the burial site. And traces were not found in the tent and police have listed them as missing items. The murderer may have taken them with him, even from the grave site and disposed of them in the rubbish or elsewhere. Or maybe on gumtree with the trailer!

 

[Arboreal]

And just to,add to my last post, for @Arboreal - we know he didn’t take Zeka, and he’d be a complete numpty to try and take Herne Spur out, especially alone and with a trailer on in the middle of the night (I dunno that he’d have made it out), so he must’ve taken Wombat Range, which is easier going anyway. I think I probably said that way back somewhere?

Thanks Brumby Jack. That adds the local, detailed informaiton. what it also suggests is that the person removing the bodies from the valley had knowledge of the area. <modsnip - no link to an approved source>

 

[Walk A Mile]

The fire has many benefits for the killer - added to the uncertainty about what had transpired, destroyed evidence, occupied police time and added complexity to determining what, if anything, was missing from the campsite. I can't think of any compelling reason for him NOT to burn the site.

 

[Detective Willy]

I am not attracted to the death by gunshot theory. Apparently a lot of camp furniture was thrown into the tent and that too was consumed in the blaze. So, I do think that the tent fire was intended to conceal the manner of death - possibly involving a lot of blood - and the perpetrator's DNA and finger prints, which may be not only in the tent but on the camp furniture.
As for the sleeping bags, there has been no mention, publicly at least, that remnants were found at the burial site. And traces were not found in the tent and police have listed them as missing items. The murderer may have taken them with him, even from the grave site and disposed of them in the rubbish or elsewhere. Or maybe on gumtree with the trailer!

A few people have mentioned the 2 missing sleeping bags and also the wallet and cards being scattered inside the floorspace in Russell's Car.

If GL was a SK maybe he was keeping a souvenir? Milat kept the sleeping bags of some of his victims.

It would be pretty hard to explain to the "Mrs" though if she found other peoples belongings in their house!

Why Do Serial Killers Take Trophies? | Crime News (oxygen.com)

"It's not uncommon for [serial killers] to collect 'trophies' - holding something back from victims," Dr Kirchengast told the BBC in 2019, while discussing Milat, who killed several Australian backpackers and held onto their camping equipment. "It's part of the psychopath's overconfidence - the belief they can fool everyone through manipulation or charm.”

 

[BrumbyJack]

Yeah Sam Wilson. She didn’t exactly go missing, she just turned up dead out in the bush a few years ago. Then when the coppers asked around everyone realised she hadn’t actually been seen for about 8 or 9 months or so, but nothing more has come of it since then. Personally I hope her case gets looked at again.

Wasn’t there a local lady from Abbeyard way who went missing and has never been found? Have no idea if this is relevant at all, but the Abbeyard name on the map struck a chord.

 

[RickshawFan]

DNA testing on recently deceased corpses can take a matter of hours, but analysis on older bodies becomes more complex, particularly if all that remains are bones.

Experts in the field of forensic science claim techniques are constantly changing as new methods become available and validated, but the extraction of DNA from bone material remains for now a time-consuming and laborious process.

Bones need to be cleaned and powdered to enhance access of extraction chemicals.

The extraction procedure itself may take several hours or days depending on the condition of the test sample.

Russell Hill, Carol Clay: Evidence found near shallow grave could be key in identifying remains | Daily Mail Online

Could you clarify if this text is a quote? Or maybe from an academic piece you wrote? Or your professional opinion? Thanks.

Presumably, the dentists for both victims could be asked for xrays. If the ID is correct, the dentures will match one set of the xrays. Then DNA will not be necessary for an ID, just for absolute categorical certainty.

 

[Tiff23fr]

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