Found Deceased Australia - Russell Hill, 74, & Carol Clay, 72, Wonnangatta Valley, 20 March 2020 #3

[Bats]

Yes, exactly Tootsie!

 

[curiouser and curiouser]

I feel like that (Bats suggestion it was more of a tool) is what happened when the drone was found the other month that then they said it had nothing to do with the investigation. A tool that would have gotten ''them'' talking and perhaps more visible.

With RH and CC going missing not long before vic lockdown, perhaps the person responsible knew they wouldn't be able to get another one for a while and thats why they upped their game to 2 at once.
Also, after thinking about it, I don't think that missing person Theo is connected, I feel like he fits in more with the other backpackers missing in more of a Milat way.

 

[Bats]

Yes Curious, possibly the same with the drone that was handed in. The Police probably just give an update to the media... sometimes. And other times, they use the media.

Another point ...and i hate to bring up something quite morbid...but, i am thinking there is at least two people involved. The reason being, a limp weight of say around 80kgms would be very difficult for one person to negotiate, let alone two (limp weights).

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I don't agree that the Police would spend time, money and resources on a search without a very good reason behind it.

And rattling someone most likely isn't a good enough reason to get the go ahead for such an expensive use of resources.

 

[Theodora]

I think you're right Bats. I can't see one person managing the murder and cover up on their own. This also doesn't "feel" to me like something that happened on the spur of the moment, for example because RH & CC stumbled on hunters etc.

Obviously it's only an impression but I feel this was planned in advance & they were either followed and attacked while setting up camp, or someone knew more or less where they would be and when. I'm still wondering if there was a personal motive, e.g. someone who hated RH, or someone who hated them both (I can't see CC being the main focus for some reason). Or there might have been a different kind of motive, perhaps a financial one, maybe someone RH had business with. We know so little about RH really.

Yes Curious, possibly the same with the drone that was handed in. The Police probably just give an update to the media... sometimes. And other times, they use the media.

Another point ...and i hate to bring up something quite morbid...but, i am thinking there is at least two people involved. The reason being, a limp weight of say around 80kgms would be very difficult for one person to negotiate, let alone two (limp weights).

 

[Bats]

I don't agree that the Police would spend time, money and resources on a search without a very good reason behind it.

And rattling someone most likely isn't a good enough reason to get the go ahead for such an expensive use of resources.

I sort of agree with you there Tootsie, though this may have been some info (people throwing shovels out of their car) that was handed to the Police quite early on... in the first few weeks possibly. Perhaps they put it aside (early on) as there was really no connection...though, over the year of investigating the information has become more and more relevant. Something that is definitely worth checking out but possibly in the Police's view may/may not have have anything to do with the disappearances... again, just to get a reaction...

 

[Bats]

I'm still wondering if there was a personal motive, e.g. someone who hated RH, or someone who hated them both (I can't see CC being the main focus for some reason). ...We know so little about RH really.

I think you're right Bats. I can't see one person managing the murder and cover up on their own. This also doesn't "feel" to me like something that happened on the spur of the moment, for example because RH & CC stumbled on hunters etc.

Obviously it's only an impression but I feel this was planned in advance & they were either followed and attacked while setting up camp, or someone knew more or less where they would be and when. I'm still wondering if there was a personal motive, e.g. someone who hated RH, or someone who hated them both (I can't see CC being the main focus for

I think you're right Bats. I can't see one person managing the murder and cover up on their own. This also doesn't "feel" to me like something that happened on the spur of the moment, for example because RH & CC stumbled on hunters etc.

Obviously it's only an impression but I feel this was planned in advance & they were either followed and attacked while setting up camp, or someone knew more or less where they would be and when. I'm still wondering if there was a personal motive, e.g. someone who hated RH, or someone who hated them both (I can't see CC being the main focus for some reason). Or there might have been a different kind of motive, perhaps a financial one, maybe someone RH had business with. We know so little about RH really.

I don't think there was any motive connected to either RH or CC. Certainly people within the family circle may have had some gripes with what has been going on... but murdering to resolve these gripes...that is unlikely, IMO.

I think this may be just an act of stupidity... by someone, and probably someones, who are not reacting to an altercation with a...lets say...clear frame of mind...

 

[trixie_au]

I don't agree that the Police would spend time, money and resources on a search without a very good reason behind it.

And rattling someone most likely isn't a good enough reason to get the go ahead for such an expensive use of resources.

Just thinking out loud here, but maybe the police have had their suspicions about a certain someone, or someone’s, for a while now and have been watching them. Then the news of a drone being found and handed in might have rattled that someone’s cage just enough that they got nervous, took a drive up to the Great Alpine Rd and piffed a couple of shovels over the edge, not realising they were being watched the whole time. That could explain why the police knew exactly where to search? I dunno, it still feels to me like this was someone they knew.

 

[Satchie]

Obviously it's only an impression but I feel this was planned in advance & they were either followed and attacked while setting up camp, or someone knew more or less where they would be and when. I'm still wondering if there was a personal motive, e.g. someone who hated RH, or someone who hated them both (I can't see CC being the main focus for some reason). Or there might have been a different kind of motive, perhaps a financial one, maybe someone RH had business with. We know so little about RH really.

RSBM

I agree with you that it seems planned in advance, or at least the perp(s) seem to have been very clear-headed/intelligent about what they needed to do to cover up the crime.

In particular, the fire and the removal of the victims, required deliberate thought, not the typical panicked reaction of "run away!"

However, I don't think that necessarily means it was someone who knew them, in fact it appears to me quite the opposite.

If you know your intended victims are going to be camping in a remote location, far away from where you yourself live, IMO you would use your being at home as your alibi. You'd drive there as quickly as possible while leaving your phone at home and avoiding all cameras, you'd do your deed in a way that leaves no trace of your particular presence, and then drive back home as quickly as possible.

Why would you hang around to burn the campsite, and take them away to, presumably, hide them? That just increases your chances of being seen, and adds nothing to your ability to be eliminated as a suspect because you were home the whole time. In fact, you might leave a scene that would suggest some stranger in the area did it.

IMO, if people disappear close to home, then it's more likely to be someone they know who has hidden the location of the crime scene and of the missing people, because without those things, police can't tie them to the crime.

That leads me to believe the presumed killer(s) were already in the area, and that's why they felt the compulsion to burn the camp and hide the victims. If it was obvious what had happened, they might be suspected. They wanted to create a mystery so LE would not know for sure what happened on 'their' stomping ground.

JMO

 

[Satchie]

Just a couple of comments about the truck, after reflection.

-Locking the truck IMO, would be just another strategy to delay discovery of what happened. Like burning just the camping equipment: don't let it get out of control so authorities are called in. With the truck seemingly locked by the owner, no one in the area would call police. I don't think anybody did call police, it was Russell's buddy/wife who did...
- I think the truck was recalled for more thorough forensic testing, eg any traces that the truck had been used to transport the victims. Who knows what original forensic testing was done.

 

[bearbear]

RSBM

I agree with you that it seems planned in advance, or at least the perp(s) seem to have been very clear-headed/intelligent about what they needed to do to cover up the crime.

In particular, the fire and the removal of the victims, required deliberate thought, not the typical panicked reaction of "run away!"

However, I don't think that necessarily means it was someone who knew them, in fact it appears to me quite the opposite.

If you know your intended victims are going to be camping in a remote location, far away from where you yourself live, IMO you would use your being at home as your alibi. You'd drive there as quickly as possible while leaving your phone at home and avoiding all cameras, you'd do your deed in a way that leaves no trace of your particular presence, and then drive back home as quickly as possible.

Why would you hang around to burn the campsite, and take them away to, presumably, hide them? That just increases your chances of being seen, and adds nothing to your ability to be eliminated as a suspect because you were home the whole time. In fact, you might leave a scene that would suggest some stranger in the area did it.

IMO, if people disappear close to home, then it's more likely to be someone they know who has hidden the location of the crime scene and of the missing people, because without those things, police can't tie them to the crime.

That leads me to believe the presumed killer(s) were already in the area, and that's why they felt the compulsion to burn the camp and hide the victims. If it was obvious what had happened, they might be suspected. They wanted to create a mystery so LE would not know for sure what happened on 'their' stomping ground.

JMO

yes, thats got me wondering, why were their bodies removed from the site, they could have just burnt them in their tent, obviously the fire was needed to destroy the killers dna etc, but why bother moving the bodies if the crime couldnt be traced to you?

 

[TootsieFootsie]

No bodies, no chance of tracing a bullet

Burning the bodies if they had been shot would still have left the bullets in the ashes.
Maybe the bullets could have been matched to one or more of the fallen deer in the area.

yes, thats got me wondering, why were their bodies removed from the site, they could have just burnt them in their tent, obviously the fire was needed to destroy the killers dna etc, but why bother moving the bodies if the crime couldnt be traced to you?

 

[srper2]

The year before carol & Russell went missing we were up that way , not as far as won but a town . We were in a group one night & had a strange/scary encounter with a strange man ( not buttons) this man had a bad fixation about drones & that he believed the gov were following him . He also followed us... His saving grace might be that he didn’t have a four wheel drive to tackle the terrain up there but a low base normal car . I do believe the police were told about this incident at the time. I suppose it's ok to post this if it's not taken off by the mods... I repeat scary

I read about a similar type incident reported by a high country skier who met an agitated man who appeared out of nowhere *carrying either an axe or shovel, but can't remember which!), saying his car had been bogged in the snow somewhere back, behaving strangely and asking if the skier was alone. The skier had just begun to set up camp for the night, but lied about friends arriving any second, quickly packed up and left as fast as he could. He went as far away as he could get before dark but was still scared he may have been followed when he camped that night. The incident worried him so much he reported it to police later as the mans behaviour was threatening and he was also concerned that the man would be unable to dig a car out of the snow there for weeks to leave - and was wondering how on earth a car could have made it there in the first place. ( MOO, I can't find the link this morning but I think I posted it way back and will post if I find it again!).

 

[Beans]

I wonder if they maybe have actually found the drone and it yielded some useful info. Whether or not it was the drone mentioned a few weeks back or not, the mention of a drone may have been intended to prompt a reaction of a particular person in a particular area. A return to a scene of some sort. It feels like they’re testing the water with the info they’re allowing to be shared at the moment.

 

[srper2]

I struggle to see how the shovels would be related to CC and RH's disappearance being so far away. They would be barely useful for shoveling snow up there and pretty much useless for burying someone in stony ground, but don't even look like good shovels for snow. They do appear to have been damaged from the grainy pics available. I hope not used as a weapon. I am wondering it police were inadvertently led to evidence of a completely different crime scene? The sand shoe in the boot with a tag was weird also, not bagged just tagged.

 

[Monsoon]

The police seem to be emphasising that they want information about people who were at the King Billy + Bluff Track location, where Russell camped alone 11-13 March. Were these people problematic? Do they have a white ute? Were they the same people who may have been in the Zeka Spur / Howitt plains track on 19-20 March, and seen stopped at a toilet/suspension bridge on 19 March? (Is the suspension bridge the Eaglevale or Kingwill bridge?)

 

[Monsoon]

One of the photos from the latest police search is the Olive Branch Chain Bay. There is an old Olive Branch mine but I'm not sure if it's near that location or closer to Harrietville. In any case, If RH and CC were ambushed/attacked at their campsite at Dry River, and taken there, it could have been by a back road.

 

[JLZ]

I struggle to see how the shovels would be related to CC and RH's disappearance being so far away. They would be barely useful for shoveling snow up there and pretty much useless for burying someone in stony ground, but don't even look like good shovels for snow. They do appear to have been damaged from the grainy pics available. I hope not used as a weapon. I am wondering it police were inadvertently led to evidence of a completely different crime scene? The sand shoe in the boot with a tag was weird also, not bagged just tagged.

I thought they might have brought the shoe themselves, for comparison. It's probably not unusual to find shoes, and handy to be able to discount those not relevant.

 

[Monsoon]

For some extreme speculation: Perhaps someone (with a white ute) is growing a cannabis crop at the King Billy/Bluff Track. They live in Bairnsdale. They travel up to to the location on March 19, via Dargo, then stopping at a toilet/suspension bridge (Eaglevale). There is an encounter/attack at Dry River Creek where RH and CC are camping, perhaps spurred from previous antagonism in early March with RH at the King Billy/Bluff track. RH and CC are removed from the site, after 6.30pm (radio call), but not too much later (toilet unused), then the tent burned. The white ute freaks out, takes a back road to Harrietville, spending a few days doing so, perhaps disposing of evidence. From Harrietville, then heads back to Bairnsdale - via the Olive Branch chain bay (were objects thrown from a car heading south? i.e. downhill) and Dargo. Speculation only!

 

[JLZ]

For some extreme speculation: Perhaps someone (with a white ute) is growing a cannabis crop at the King Billy/Bluff Track. They live in Bairnsdale. They travel up to to the location on March 19, via Dargo, then stopping at a toilet/suspension bridge (Eaglevale). There is an encounter/attack at Dry River Creek where RH and CC are camping, perhaps spurred from previous antagonism in early March with RH at the King Billy/Bluff track. RH and CC are removed from the site, after 6.30pm (radio call), but not too much later (toilet unused), then the tent burned. The white ute freaks out, takes a back road to Harrietville, spending a few days doing so, perhaps disposing of evidence. From Harrietville, then heads back to Bairnsdale - via the Olive Branch chain bay (were objects thrown from a car heading south? i.e. downhill) and Dargo. Speculation only!

The Eaglevale sighting (of an older person or couple) wasn't on 19 March but 22 or 23 March.

Edit, further thoughts: If there's a cannabis crop near the meeting of those tracks, Button Man should know about it, because wasn't that the location of his camp?