Australia Australia - Tumbulgum, NSW, Male 50-70, Tweed River in sleeping bag, Nov'12

[Wolfinator]

It makes sense that the 'bag' would be custom made for something like a bench for a boat, caravan or even Kombi-type vehicle.

I was thinking along the lines of your second point last night, ie, the sheet being used as a loose 'shroud'.

I've also thought that, if he was closer to the maximum age of 70 and, seeing as there must be no obvious signs of trauma if police don't know how he died, he may have died of natural causes. Just why someone would put his remains in a watery grave, in that case, is anyone's guess.

I wonder if there had been some flooding/rising river levels in the area in the preceding two weeks or so? In other words, could he have been either sleeping rough on the banks of one of the rivers (there's a junction of the Tweed and Rous Rivers just before the Tumbulgum Tavern), passed away and his body washed downstream? Or buried in a shallow grave and his body uncovered and washed downstream by the current.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/T...!1s0x6b90fbcd0092c015:0x40609b49043fe80?hl=en

11th of Nov - 65mm fell at New Italy (about 40km away)

http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/mwr/nsw/mwr-nsw-201211.pdf

But Nov 2012 doesn't look to have had any large weather/flooding events at first glance. But that river has pretty strong tidal surges. I'll try and find more localised records to look for local flooding and King tides.

It was certainly warm enough to consider sleeping in your underwear.

It would be good to know how that bag was tied and what with. And I don't think it was a bag. I'm backing the caravan/boat cushion cover raised earlier.

That part of the world is sleepy and populated with a lot of "alternate" lifestyles who like to live off the grid.

I'm thinking he could have been a "live aboard" boatie on the river possibly or even just passing through and the boat and its occupants moved on without him... Could explain the lack of a missing persons report - possibly interstate or foreign if a boat is involved.


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[Wolfinator]

Tweed River entrance crossings for Nov 2012.

Wonder what/if any other boat ids are kept.

http://www.tweedsandbypass.nsw.gov..../0011/506468/Enviro_Summary_November_2012.pdf


Here's the web cam for the entrance.

http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/maritime/using-waterways/web-cameras/tweed-heads.html

There might be Coast Guard logs for vessels calling in for the crossing.


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[Bohemian]

11th of Nov - 65mm fell at New Italy (about 40km away)

http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/mwr/nsw/mwr-nsw-201211.pdf

But Nov 2012 doesn't look to have had any large weather/flooding events at first glance. But that river has pretty strong tidal surges. I'll try and find more localised records to look for local flooding and King tides.

It was certainly warm enough to consider sleeping in your underwear.

It would be good to know how that bag was tied and what with. And I don't think it was a bag. I'm backing the caravan/boat cushion cover raised earlier.

That part of the world is sleepy and populated with a lot of "alternate" lifestyles who like to live off the grid.

I'm thinking he could have been a "live aboard" boatie on the river possibly or even just passing through and the boat and its occupants moved on without him... Could explain the lack of a missing persons report - possibly interstate or foreign if a boat is involved.


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Tweed River entrance crossings for Nov 2012.

Wonder what/if any other boat ids are kept.

http://www.tweedsandbypass.nsw.gov..../0011/506468/Enviro_Summary_November_2012.pdf


Here's the web cam for the entrance.

http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/maritime/using-waterways/web-cameras/tweed-heads.html

There might be Coast Guard logs for vessels calling in for the crossing.


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Thanks, Wolfie. Very handy information. I'm not sure about the 'sleeping sheet' idea either but I think it was worth a call; especially as there was a link to overseas and hostels.

I do think it's more likely a custom-made cushion cover from a boat, caravan or Kombi-type vehicle. It just beats me why anyone would put a body in the river if there are no obvious signs of trauma or unusual toxicology. Then again, people do lots of strange things, as we well know.

 

[Wolfinator]

Thanks, Wolfie. Very handy information. I'm not sure about the 'sleeping sheet' idea either but I think it was worth a call; especially as there was a link to overseas and hostels.

I do think it's more likely a custom-made cushion cover from a boat, caravan or Kombi-type vehicle. It just beats me why anyone would put a body in the river if there are no obvious signs of trauma or unusual toxicology. Then again, people do lots of strange things, as we well know.

Has anyone been able to determine if the "bag" was zipped up or tied up.

If it wasn't then it's a longer leap to third parties being involved - I would think?

The "Wanted" video suggests the dentures could be in the river - makes me think it wasn't sealed.






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[Bohemian]

Has anyone been able to determine if the "bag" was zipped up or tied up.

If it wasn't then it's a longer leap to third parties being involved - I would think?

The "Wanted" video suggests the dentures could be in the river - makes me think it wasn't sealed.

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Not AFAIK, Wolfie.

Also, the 'bag' wasn't reported as being weighted down. That's the reason I asked if there had been flooding, etc, which may have washed Tumbulgum man's remains from the river bank.

I'm not married to any theory regarding third parties being involved in the disposal of the man's remains but, if it was a 'cushion cover' why would he be sleeping in it? Although necessity is the mother of invention, I suppose.

Also, when thinking about the reason for the inclusion of the sheet inside the 'bag', maybe it was used as a 'shroud' to make it easier to put the man in the 'bag', if there was a third party involved. After all, 60cm is not very wide for a 'sleeping bag', although he was described as thin IIRC.

As for Tumbulgum man's dentures, they could very well be in the river but, in that case, what do you think about his remains still being inside the 'bag' if the current was strong enough to dislodge them?

 

[JLZ]

If the man died sleeping, he'd probably taken his dentures out first.

 

[Elainera]

If this wasn't foul play, then whereever he was sleeping before he (presumably) fell or was washed into the river there should have been his clothes, shoes, possibly his dentures, and whatever other belongings he had left behind. Unless they also all ended up in the water. Were the banks searched at the time I wonder, items might have washed ashore. Now it's probably too late.

 

[Bohemian]

If the man died sleeping, he'd probably taken his dentures out first.

You'd think so, JLZ, but it depends on how well or ill fitting they are or if your gums are irritated. My Mum has dentures and she sometimes leaves both of them in, sometimes the top one only and, at other times, she takes them both of them out when she goes to bed.

 

[Wolfinator]

It's mosquito country around there too. And hot at that time of year. I can imagine a "live aboard" or even someone sleeping rough on a rarely used boat kept on the river sleeping on deck but using the sheet and cushion cover as protection. Rolling off after having a "few" wrapped up in that stuff could lead to a possible drowning.

That being said - where are the rest of the possessions - wonder if they checked all the boats on the river and asked owners of they had found anything strange or missing.


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[Bohemian]

If this wasn't foul play, then whereever he was sleeping before he (presumably) fell or was washed into the river there should have been his clothes, shoes, possibly his dentures, and whatever other belongings he had left behind. Unless they also all ended up in the water. Were the banks searched at the time I wonder, items might have washed ashore. Now it's probably too late.

It's mosquito country around there too. And hot at that time of year. I can imagine a "live aboard" or even someone sleeping rough on a rarely used boat kept on the river sleeping on deck but using the sheet and cushion cover as protection. Rolling off after having a "few" wrapped up in that stuff could lead to a possible drowning.

That being said - where are the rest of the possessions - wonder if they checked all the boats on the river and asked owners of they had found anything strange or missing.

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It would be interesting to find out if, and where, a search was done for this man's possessions, boat or vehicle. In the 'Wanted' video, embedded in eucalyptuz' earlier post:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...eping-bag-24-Nov-2012&p=12750872#post12750872

the presenter, Xanthe Mallett, said he 'could've entered the water anywhere between Coolangatta and Murwillumbah, or even further upstream.' I make that distance roughly 23km by road, which would have given police at least 56km of river bank to search. If they were mostly on foot, it would take them around 10-12 hours by my fuzzy reckoning. I suspect they would have done a cursory search around Tumbulgum and then put a call out to the public for information.

 

[Wolfinator]

I'm hunting for male, missing persons with a "boating" connection and a reasonably short stature.

Australian and International.

Quick question for you biology sleuths - is there a general range of "height decline" with ageing?



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[Bohemian]

I'm hunting for male, missing persons with a "boating" connection and a reasonably short stature.

Australian and International.

Colin James Burgess is my first hit - but I believe he is too tall. Quick question for you biology sleuths - is there a general range of "height decline" with ageing?

https://www.missingpersons.gov.au/who-missing/australian-missing-overseas/burgess-colin


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Yes, way too tall, even if he lost the average amount of height for an ageing person, according to this:

'Height loss is related to aging changes in the bones, muscles, and joints. People typically lose about 1 cm (almost one-half inch) every 10 years after age 40. Height loss is even more rapid after age 70. You may lose a total of 1 to 3 inches [2.5cm to 7.5cm] in height as you age.'

Source: https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/003998.htm

Then, I suppose you could add the effects of osteoporosis and arthritis and other degenerative bone and connective tissue conditions but I still doubt you'd get a height loss of 25cm.

I'll have a look at other missing persons sites and see what I can find.

 

[Wolfinator]

Yes, way too tall, even if he lost the average amount of height for an ageing person, according to this:

'Height loss is related to aging changes in the bones, muscles, and joints. People typically lose about 1 cm (almost one-half inch) every 10 years after age 40. Height loss is even more rapid after age 70. You may lose a total of 1 to 3 inches [2.5cm to 7.5cm] in height as you age.'

Source: https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/003998.htm

Then, I suppose you could add the effects of osteoporosis and arthritis and other degenerative bone and connective tissue conditions but I still doubt you'd get a height loss of 25cm.

I'll have a look at other missing persons sites and see what I can find.

Exceptional as always Boho!


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[Bohemian]

Exceptional as always Boho!


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Yeah, outliers. Just one of the things that make statistics so 'interesting'. Great for manipulating large datasets, usually very inaccurate for an invidual.

 

[symbah]

I have some simliar coloured and patterned underpants. Bonds is an Australian brand. I've had them for a few years now.

P

(Sorry if this is oversharing)

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The man's orange and blue underpants.

​

TOPICS: TWEED POLICE, TWEED RIVER

http://www.tweeddailynews.com.au/news/nationwide-appeal-to-identify-body-found-in-sleepi/1892081/

To me his underpants don't look like you're average cotton blend undies (like yours appear to be Pain Express).
His underpants seem as if their made with some kind of wool blend.
I live in a really cold winter climate & my family wear wool blend thermals (similar to the fabric i can see his underpants might be made of) & we purchase ours from a local shop that stocks trekking undergarments & clothes.

 

[Bohemian]

Exceptional as always Boho!


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Sorty, I read your post as 'There are always exceptions, Boho!' because I was pretty tired at the time:S

Thanks for the compliment - it's appreciated.

 

[Bohemian]

The man's orange and blue underpants.

​

TOPICS: TWEED POLICE, TWEED RIVER

http://www.tweeddailynews.com.au/news/nationwide-appeal-to-identify-body-found-in-sleepi/1892081/

To me his underpants don't look like you're average cotton blend undies (like yours appear to be Pain Express).
His underpants seem as if their made with some kind of wool blend.
I live in a really cold winter climate & my family wear wool blend thermals (similar to the fabric i can see his underpants might be made of) & we purchase ours from a local shop that stocks trekking undergarments & clothes.

They do seem to be a thicker weave than the (increasingly thin) cotton underwear you buy nowadays. I have to ask though - wouldn't woollen underwear be a bit hot to wear in Summer on the Qld-NSW border?

 

[Elainera]

They do seem to be a thicker weave than the (increasingly thin) cotton underwear you buy nowadays. I have to ask though - wouldn't woollen underwear be a bit hot to wear in Summer on the Qld-NSW border?

I was wondering the same. But if he was poor, maybe he only had one clean pair at that moment.

 

[ZaZara]

I was wondering the same. But if he was poor, maybe he only had one clean pair at that moment.

Hikers and joggers use garments made of merino wool in summer too because of the excellent insulating and regulating qualities:
http://shop.ibex.com/the-art-of-wool/why-merino-wool-in-the-summer
These garments are expensive!

On a different continent, the liner for a sleeping bag plus the woollen underwear would not have put him out of place as a pilgrim on the Camino de Santiago in Northern Spain.

 

[symbah]

Hikers and joggers use garments made of merino wool in summer too because of the excellent insulating and regulating qualities:
http://shop.ibex.com/the-art-of-wool/why-merino-wool-in-the-summer
These garments are expensive!

On a different continent, the liner for a sleeping bag plus the woollen underwear would not have put him out of place as a pilgrim on the Camino de Santiago in Northern Spain.

And they can be worn for a longer period between washes, if need be.

http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/Travel-Underwear-Reviews
Travel clothing companies have addressed this issue by using special fabrics or anti-bacterial coatings. The keratin protein structure of merino wool is naturally resistant to bacteria. The wool of these soft sheep barely absorbs odors and clothing made from it, like the Smartwool and Icebreaker offerings, can last a long time between washes without getting stinky.