Autopsy Report - UCF Osteological Analysis-Duct Tape Info#2

[KeyboardCat]

I'm sorry;; Yes I believe all of my 9 posts probably have been off topic in some shape or fashion Questions sometimes just pop in my head while reading a topic, and so I have to ask those questions. Its a compulsion!
Anywho~ to contribute my thought of the duct tape analysis:

Dr. G says the duct tape was covering both the mouth and nasal appenditures. She goes on to explain that this duct tape is what held the mandible in place, which would not have remained there otherwise. Here is what I gather from her explanation of the tape and the hair mat: The tape held the lower jaw in place, but the tape itself would have also become unattached during/after the decomposition if it were not for the mat of skull hair that was left at the base of the skull after falling out (and also becoming attached to the tape.)

 

[seagull65]

In reading this current discussion, I am wondering: Just a small thing, but when there is no outer nose left on the skull, the actual naval cavity that is exposed could be a bit lower than where nostrils would be situated-Younger children still have the effect of the outer nose being slightly upturned, evolution provided that for breast feeding, so perhaps Caylee's nostrils were not covered but it appeared that way because the naval cavity was slightly covered.
However, if the defense were to use the nose vs. mouth & nose as their strategy it would be a losing case, because they would be admitting their client knew the difference....the defense will say the tape was either not put there by KC, or it was not on Caylee's skull at all-or both.

I think we're only discussing the actual report here, not prosecution or defense strategy.

Did the report say or suggest anywhere that the nostrils had been covered? I didn't see that anywhere. The ME also didn't specify that Caylee had died of suffocation, right? Which surely they could have/would have stated if they believed both her nose and mouth had been taped over IMO.

 

[Swancat63]

I'm sorry;; Yes I believe all of my 9 posts probably have been off topic in some shape or fashion Questions sometimes just pop in my head while reading a topic, and so I have to ask those questions. Its a compulsion!
Anywho~ to contribute my thought of the duct tape analysis:

Dr. G says the duct tape was covering both the mouth and nasal appenditures. She goes on to explain that this duct tape is what held the mandible in place, which would not have remained there otherwise. Here is what I gather from her explanation of the tape and the hair mat: The tape held the lower jaw in place, but the tape itself would have also become unattached during/after the decomposition if it were not for the mat of skull hair that was left at the base of the skull after falling out (and also becoming attached to the tape.)

Since I haven't seen the pictures of the skull, I don't assume that al the hair HAD fallen out. It is possible that hair remained attached to the skull. The mandible could be held in place by the duct tape attached to the hair. JMO

 

[seagull65]

Susan Mears put the skull in the paper bag. She said the tape was on the lower area of the skull over the mouth. I find it hard to believe this tape was tight. I would think that it would be loose and floppy after all flesh has decomposed. Perhaps she bumped the bag with the tape part and the tape moved up. Crime scene photos should tell the story. Also, the bags were seperate at the crime scene and then tangled by the time they reached the ME office. I really wish I could see these crime scene photos. I do not think it is fair for the ME to determine cause of death if things were manipulated or changed by the time she examined.

There are missing reports in my opinion. Steve Hanson collected the body, tied back vines and moved the log, and there is no report from him. Dr Utz and Dr Schultz gave a report from the ME office but no report from the Crime scene. What about CSI Bloise, he was there before Yuri and John, where is his report? Steve Hanson is a key person and so is CSI Bloise, however I still think J Allen should have filled out a report. I do not know what the protocol is, but I think the key witnesses should fill out reports.

The picture of the tape is in an X shape fashion. I can not make any sense out of that. LKB said they are going to dispute the location of the duct tape. It was said on cbs 48 hours.

thanks for always keeping such good track of the documents NTS!! You blow me away. I would like to see all those people's reports, too.

Are you telling me the tape on Caylee is now being reported as having been in an X shape on her face? Oh I see what you mean, just the tape after it was found, some pieces in an X shape, right? I think I know what you mean, I will have to go look again, I think I always kind of wondered about that, too. That would be very very freaky if that turns out that her face was taped in an X because that would resemble that picture of Lee's roommate when he was taped up. Remember that? Long story short for anyone who is new, there was a video (reportedly people here got it from Lee's myspace early on) of one of Lee's roommates being taped up with duct tape at a party. I didn't see the video and I've asked people who saw it who it was actually taping him up, was Casey doing it or Lee or who, but I don't know the answer. Someone posted a still photograph from that video showing the roommate taped up though, I saw that. The tape shown in that still photo was in an X-shape over the roommate's face. I remarked on the weird X-shape of the taping at the time. Someone else told me they'd seen the video and didn't remember his face being taped, so we weren't sure if that was photoshopped or real and just happened after the segment she had seen. Anyway, to me it was a strange and creepy enough coincidence to begin with that one of Lee's roommates had been duct taped as a prank. Much less if Caylee also had an X shape taping. Holy smoke.

 

[Just Jayla]

I think we're only discussing the actual report here, not prosecution or defense strategy.

Did the report say or suggest anywhere that the nostrils had been covered? I didn't see that anywhere. The ME also didn't specify that Caylee had died of suffocation, right? Which surely they could have/would have stated if they believed both her nose and mouth had been taped over IMO.

A few posts back, discussing whether the nose was actually covered, because some that arrived on the scene only specified mouth was covered.
Discussion pertaining to differences between what we have 'heard' and what is in the items to be submitted as evidence (this report) is sort of on topic...as well as the defense's possible disputes re: this report and other things that have been thrown out there that confirm or contradict this report.

(Also had to edit my original comment-The 'naval cavity' did not have duct tape on it at all, that we know of!)

 

[Omachka]

I think we're only discussing the actual report here, not prosecution or defense strategy.

Did the report say or suggest anywhere that the nostrils had been covered? I didn't see that anywhere. The ME also didn't specify that Caylee had died of suffocation, right? Which surely they could have/would have stated if they believed both her nose and mouth had been taped over IMO.

Page 3 of 13 of the document; Page 6453 of the consecutive document page numbering. Third paragraph states what the ME found in the evidence and states that the tape was covering the "mouth and nasal aperture areas". It goes on to explain how the tape managed to stay there and how it was holding the mandible. The following paragraph is the ME opinion of what that means.... so yes, they did say it covered her mouth and nose. That being said, they couldn't have said accurately that the tape was the cause of death which is why they didn't say she suffocated. So, if you want to stick strictly to what the report says that's it. I don't think it's an unfair assumption by anyone of us that the position of that tape 'could' have caused death by suffocation though.

 

[whiteangora]

According to the autopsy report, "Greyish colored tape was noted covering the mouth and nasal aperture areas". AFAIK, aperture means opening.
page 3 of the report.

 

[seagull65]

Since I haven't seen the pictures of the skull, I don't assume that al the hair HAD fallen out. It is possible that hair remained attached to the skull. The mandible could be held in place by the duct tape attached to the hair. JMO

I believe the skull was completely skeletonized, I don't think there was any scalp left for hair to still be attached to, as far as we've heard. According to reports there was some hair that remained just lying loosely on the top of the skull, most of the hair had fallen around the sides and back/front of the skull. I'll be interested to find out more about the parts of the hair that were stuck to the tape, maybe the tape itself was holding them at this point, or they were tangled or propped by the piles of hair or hair mat, I'm not sure. The skull was reportedly sitting upright with the mandible beneath it. They were transported together and the ME in this report notes the hair mat beneath the jaw. I'll be interested to see more.

 

[AZlawyer]

I believe the skull was completely skeletonized, I don't think there was any scalp left for hair to still be attached to, as far as we've heard. According to reports there was some hair that remained just lying loosely on the top of the skull, most of the hair had fallen around the sides and back/front of the skull. I'll be interested to find out more about the parts of the hair that were stuck to the tape, maybe the tape itself was holding them at this point, or they were tangled or propped by the piles of hair or hair mat, I'm not sure. The skull was reportedly sitting upright with the mandible beneath it. They were transported together and the ME in this report notes the hair mat beneath the jaw. I'll be interested to see more.

Here's a post from the first thread re: a very old skull with hair:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5102466&postcount=554"]http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5102466&postcount=554[/ame]

 

[KeyboardCat]

Here's a post from the first thread re: a very old skull with hair:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5102466&postcount=554

I am probably wrong, but one could assume the difference there is that those were mummies, having been embalmed in some way. That story also further goes to say even tattoos were visible on some. Apparently, they were preserved quite well. I also assume that there is some level of soft tissue left under that one fellow's mullet. Or! due to being "laid to rest" instead of being tossed out in the woods, his hair is just still lying there, with no real attachment to the skull.

I still believe that the head hair was not attached to her scalp, simply because there was no soft tissue present, at all. I also doubt hair was resting on the skull, due to the harsh environment/underwater/animal activity.

 

[Reagan]

I would have voted for hair not being able to be attached once skeletonized. Thanks AZLawyer, but I'm still thinking along the lines of Keyboard cat (harsh environment, time lapse, animal activity, etc). I think the duct tape was on or wrapped so tightly and wrapped around that it was the duct tape keeping the hair in place. Plus to hold the mandible on, after decomposition nonetheless, plus the environmental factors.. that's gotta be pretty tightly wrapped around.

However to get any real answers, we need more info... and for AZLawyers husband to let her buy a child's model skull for various experiments.

What has this case done to us, people!

 

[MissJames]

Caylee's face was small .Based on the skull measurements,I would assume they could get a pretty accurate measurment of the area from her chin to above her nose. The medical examiner would be able to take the measurement from the top of the layers to the bottom ,compare that to the measurements of Caylee's face ,and conclude that it covered both openings ,simply based on size. In my opinion,of course.

 

[notthatsmart]

Caylee's face was small .Based on the skull measurements,I would assume they could get a pretty accurate measurment of the area from her chin to above her nose. The medical examiner would be able to take the measurement from the top of the layers to the bottom ,compare that to the measurements of Caylee's face ,and conclude that it covered both openings ,simply based on size. In my opinion,of course.

So, I guess if they were to take pictures with some sort of measuring camera, they could actually replicate this skull and tape in court. If they could figure out exactly what size her face was, they could use the X tape pictures with measuring camera to replicate in court.

Also, no one in official capacity has said that the duct tape was the cause of death. It would have to be Dr Jan under her opinion and not proof. No one knows she is going to go there. IMO

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

So, I guess if they were to take pictures with some sort of measuring camera, they could actually replicate this skull and tape in court. If they could figure out exactly what size her face was, they could use the X tape pictures with measuring camera to replicate in court.

Also, no one in official capacity has said that the duct tape was the cause of death. It would have to be Dr Jan under her opinion and not proof. No one knows she is going to go there. IMO

nts, I think you have referred to the "x tape" pictures before and I never did understand what you were talking about. Do you have a link so I can see what you're referencing, please?

 

[notthatsmart]

nts, I think you have referred to the "x tape" pictures before and I never did understand what you were talking about. Do you have a link so I can see what you're referencing, please?

Hold on, I will go look in the other thread about duct tape photos. I believe AZ provided it.

 

[notthatsmart]

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=8840&d=1271454289


Here is the link

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=8840&d=1271454289


Here is the link

Thank you, nts. It's really distressing to try to picture that on little Caylee's face, isn't it? Even if Dr G doesn't go there, I'm quite sure someone will!

 

[notthatsmart]

Thank you, nts. It's really distressing to try to picture that on little Caylee's face, isn't it? Even if Dr G doesn't go there, I'm quite sure someone will!

Yes it is very painful to look at it. It is very difficult to not get emotional. thanks

 

[Sdavidson11]

I have spent the better part of 2 days debating with myself on how I wanted to post on this thread. Having looked at the link provided by nts (thank you) and reading the different measurements from swancat63 (thank you) I will throw my personal experience out there to put things into perspective regarding the placement of duct tape on a live person. The duct tape was placed on me against my will by a man who escaped from prison and broke into my house. No need for I'm sorries as I have typed about this before and just want to put my perspective out here regarding this report. Measuring from 1/4 " from my bottom lip to cover the tip of my nose is 2 1/4 ". When my mouth was covered with the silver duct tape it was place so that my mouth and the tip of my nose was covered and pulled tight into my hair. My hair is thick, long and naturally curly. Caylee's hair looked fine and rather thin. Once the tape was placed, I had to purse or pucker my lips to try to get some room to breathe. It was not easy. The tape can not be removed like a band aide where you can try to do the quick pull from side to side. What I had to do once I was cut loose was to pull the tape down around my chin and then stretched it to slide around my neck. My hair held the tape in place and it had to be cut out. It would be my assumption that because of Caylee's baby hair that the tape was able to adhere to her scalp and ear area. With the tape over my eyes, I could not see, but my forehead allowed the tape to rest on my cheekbones rather than stick to my eyes and eyelashes. Again, I could not remove it but rolled it up to my forehead and my hair had to be cut out to remove it. The tape that nts showed is really in good condition and not manipulated in my opinion because of the straight edges. To me it shows that it was not rolled and in my opinion that is the only way to remove it from the face and to be cut out later. I think the tape could be the cause of death from my experience because I was 22 and had a hard time manipulating my lips to allow me to breathe. Poor Caylee didn't have a chance. Also, even if her hands were not bound I don't think she could remove the tape because 1. it hurts and 2. to find where to pull it off is quite difficult because you have to be strong enough to stretch the tape.

 

[MissJames]

I have spent the better part of 2 days debating with myself on how I wanted to post on this thread. Having looked at the link provided by nts (thank you) and reading the different measurements from swancat63 (thank you) I will throw my personal experience out there to put things into perspective regarding the placement of duct tape on a live person. The duct tape was placed on me against my will by a man who escaped from prison and broke into my house. No need for I'm sorries as I have typed about this before and just want to put my perspective out here regarding this report. Measuring from 1/4 " from my bottom lip to cover the tip of my nose is 2 1/4 ". When my mouth was covered with the silver duct tape it was place so that my mouth and the tip of my nose was covered and pulled tight into my hair. My hair is thick, long and naturally curly. Caylee's hair looked fine and rather thin. Once the tape was placed, I had to purse or pucker my lips to try to get some room to breathe. It was not easy. The tape can not be removed like a band aide where you can try to do the quick pull from side to side. What I had to do once I was cut loose was to pull the tape down around my chin and then stretched it to slide around my neck. My hair held the tape in place and it had to be cut out. It would be my assumption that because of Caylee's baby hair that the tape was able to adhere to her scalp and ear area. With the tape over my eyes, I could not see, but my forehead allowed the tape to rest on my cheekbones rather than stick to my eyes and eyelashes. Again, I could not remove it but rolled it up to my forehead and my hair had to be cut out to remove it. The tape that nts showed is really in good condition and not manipulated in my opinion because of the straight edges. To me it shows that it was not rolled and in my opinion that is the only way to remove it from the face and to be cut out later. I think the tape could be the cause of death from my experience because I was 22 and had a hard time manipulating my lips to allow me to breathe. Poor Caylee didn't have a chance. Also, even if her hands were not bound I don't think she could remove the tape because 1. it hurts and 2. to find where to pull it off is quite difficult because you have to be strong enough to stretch the tape.

Thank you again,for sharing. It really puts what Caylee went through into perspective.
I think if this case goes to trial the jurors will be able to see for themselves that 3 strips of duct tape were excessive for simply keeping a child quiet.