Found Deceased AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #21

Discussion in 'Located Persons Discussion' started by Salem, May 16, 2012.

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  1. Salem

    Salem Former Member

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    Please continue here.

    Please remember TOS.

    Please do not discuss the minor children in an accusatory nature. They are victims of this situation and should be treated as such, unless LE tells us differently.

    Please remember that theories and speculation are welcome, but they must be based in reality. ALSO - if you don't happen to agree with a theory, that's fine, BUT don't be condescending or tell those who are kicking the theory around, how to post.

    Please be respectful and civil to each other and the MODS - or TOs will be issued. If you have a question about moderation, what is okay to post, or TOS, PM a mod. They will help you. You may always pm me or any of the mods you are comfortable with. We will get an answer for you.

     


  2. Patty G

    Patty G Retired WS Staff

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  3. Salem

    Salem Former Member

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    Please continue here.

    Salem
     
  4. SmoothOperator

    SmoothOperator Sadly what connects all these puzzles is that ther

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    Above BBM. This is not at all what was being indicated in Mark's stating LE's DID NOT record their discussions. (please note that the entirety of this post is not just directed at the post above, but several of the posts discussing this particular issue that are not accurate of the details that are being reported regarding Tronzinger and his concern of being incorrectly quoted in the docs) .. Tronzinger is not at all indicating that LE should have been recording their "chance meeting" in the restaurant(which I'll clarify this point as well in a moment).. He is speaking of the FORMAL INTERVIEW THEY THEY, AS IN LE REQUESTED TO HAVE WITH HIM(note that in the docs it incorrectly states that Tronzinger contacted and strongly requested to meet with LE).. As well as their first contact was only a "chance meeting" in a restaurant where LE let him know that they were interested in speaking with him(not the other way around as was INCORRECTLY stated)..

    You will see from the snipped quote below(with link attached at the bottom to full article) that as I'd said he never made mention, nor even alluded to LE having needed to record their contact in a restaurant.. Much different(and IMO therefor much more sensical) is that Tronzinger states that he was concerned that not only did LE NOT record his formal interview(again that LE had requested).. But nor did the officer/detective even bother to take down any notes whatsoever throughout or at any point in the formal interview that LE had with Tronzinger.. IMO and with obvious good reason for his being concerned that there was no record(audio, nor written) of their discussions and his statements made to LE due to the fact that whomever it was that filled out the evidentiary sheet of their formal interview with Tronzinger did so with extreme error, misquotes, and altogether incorrect statements as well as the circumstance regarding how it was that they had even come to interviewing the coach.. LE incorrectly stating that Tronzinger sought LE out and was adamant about having a formal interview with LE stating he had "pertinent information directly about Isa's case"(as you'll see in snipped quote below that is 100% false along with many other points and statements made by LE in the doc)

    As far as the issue of recording in general when detectives are conducting formal interviews with subjects in and/or around an abduction/homicide case(as was mentioned in above post as well as in a couple of posts upthread that THIS WAS NOT AT ALL SOP to record these type formal interviews with LE).. I could not disagree more.. In fact it absolutely IS SOP TO RECORD THESE TYPE FORMAL INTERVIEWS and interestingly enough the proof that this LE did in fact record(audio and written note) many other formal interviews with subjects in and around this abduction case of Isabel Celis(as is noted in several different docs in the recent doc dump.. the reports even make note to refer to audio recording of the interview with the various other subjects)..

    So, IMO not only does Tronzinger have every right to be concerned and to have come forward to make known these great errors and incorrect statements as well as false/incorrect circumstance surrounding their even had the formal interviews to begin with.. But so, too does he point out these detectives having failed to even record(in any capacity audio or written) the discussions of their formal interview.. IMO its extremely negligent procedure, or lack there of... Especially in going with what is LE statement in the docs that this individual purposefully sought out LE with anxious need in informing these detectives of such "pertinent information" related to the case.. That alone, if indeed were a true fact that this coach purposefully sought out detectives and specifically told them ahead of time(prior to the actual formal interview) that he had very pertinent information to share with LE about the case.. If that were factual IMO you damn well better believe that these investigators would have made damn sure that there was a by the book legally, clear, crisp, and of its complete entirety the discussions in this formal interview with Tronzinger that contained such pertinent information.. Without a single doubt that is an issue I am quite certain of.. It's LE's not having done so that IMO lends even more credence to exactly what Mr. Tronzinger has come forward stating publicly, is indeed the ACTUAL factual truth..

    -That truth being that he, Tronzinger did not ever have any information to share with LE, certainly NOT pertinent information..
    -That he did not in any way, shape, or form seek out LE requesting to meet with them to give them this "pertinent information".
    -That he did not ever state that he knew Sergio really well, but rather had only met him a little over a hand full of times, EVER!
    -And that he certainly did NOT state to detectives that "something didn't seem right about what was going on and alluded that he believed that the father was involved in some way.".. Much differently was that when speaking about the specific issue of the possibility of Isa having "run away" that his opinion was that notion did not seem right as a valid possibility..

    WRT there being some "huge conspiracy with LE framing the parents" that's a new one on me as its certainly never entered my mind and I've yet to see anyone else claiming such either.. So IMO that's not even a topic up for discussion..

    But as far as Mark Tronzinger goes and what he is obviously upset about(and IMO with VERY GOOD REASON) I know a few see this as possibly just back peddling in an attempt to cover up and not have the Celis' mad/upset/hurt.. I will say that upon my first reading the article below that I looked at it from all the various angles and did very much consider the back peddling at that point, as did I again consider IT when a few others made mention of that possibility in their posts.. My honest opinion on it is that is just not the case here(not that the back peddling is far fetched or impossible) but just that I personally do not believe that to be the situation..Mark Tronzinger is not even close with Sergio, much less the Celis family and has met him only a handful of times.. That statement right there is easily verifiable.. Meaning if that weren't true and he actually knew the Celis family well, especially Sergio that his stating this in a public news article he would IMMEDIATELY BE CALLED OUT ON HIS LYING OR MISLEADING the facts.. Clearly he is not at all close with Sergio just as he states that he is not.. He is not in a tight knit circle of friends with the Celis' and that not only IMO proves that in all likelihood he wouldn't have a clue as to any pertinent info about the case, even IF there was some.. And furthermore there would be no loss of friendship as he obviously is nothing more than just what he states himself to be and that simply is that he is parent whose child plays ball on the same team as one or more of the Celis children.. He's not back peddling anything because IMO this man never has been in any position whatsoever that would yield his having access and knowledge to details of Sergio Celis home life, life at work, social life amongst friends(the important individuals such as co-workers and employers speak in extremely high regard of Sergio Celis.. Have nothing negative whatsoever in even the slightest to say, but rather speak in detail of his character and their multiple years of working aside him daily.. Those are people who have the access and knowledge of Sergio Celis.. But somehow their extremely positive and NON-DAMNING testimonies are overlooked,disregarded, and definitely NOT discussed) ..but back to Mark.. He is in no way anything more than a sheer acquaintance to Sergio Celis who upon being in a restaurant for the chance circumstance of seeing/speaking with detectives.. And the detectives the requesting to formally interview him later that same day.. To which he obviously, without hesitation complied.. Those detectives upon seeing Mark at that restaurant KNEW RIGHT THEN&THERE WHAT, IF ANY WAS THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN MARK AND SERGIO.. And Mark made perfectly clear that his only connection to Sergio Celis was the fact that their children played on a same little league team and nothing more..

    The question is asked what would be LE motive for stating total mistruths, combined with a severe twisting of this mans words onto the formal interview sheet that eventually was released publicly???
    And for that I do not know.. None of us do and can only speculate.. I tend to not view LE through the lens of nefarious/dirty/crooked, but rather that in a case of this magnitude with the outlandish amount of ppl interviewed, spoken to, and investigated and the sheer volume of info and details that they are told.. Well .. IMO it becomes apparent just exactly why such protocol and procedure such as recording any/all formal interviews, be it audio recording, or hand written, short hand.. The point being some type of recording of these discussions is SOP for very good reason.. And IMO right here we see up close and personal what exactly that reason is re: Mark Tronzinger having been formally interviewed , LE NEGLIGENTLY NOT RECORDING THAT INTERVIEW IN ANY CAPACITY WHATSOEVER.. Results in this man's words being absolutely Inaccurately stated on record in police documents that absolutely one day could be of some type evidentiary, court entered documentation to be used at a trial.. IMO there just is no excuse for this type negligence.. IMO no conspiracy here.. Nope.. Just good ol' fashioned laziness..negligence therefor creating a very real issue of which would have been easily avoided had they chosen to record in some capacity these discussions with Mark Tronzinger..jmo.

    Below is snipped quote from Mark Tronzinger's interview with media with link to the full article at the bottom:
    http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/story/18628999/tucson-man-concerned-police-report-misquotes-him



    ____________________...
    Posting via mobile as well as via tablet so plz forgive all typos.. Btwn the sucky touch keyboard and the obsessive auto-correct it's a big ol' mess :crazy:
     
  5. Ransom

    Ransom Former Member

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  6. cluciano63

    cluciano63 Well-Known Member

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    I don't like to assume LE is lying...maybe something was removed from the report before it was released...or maybe LE is NOT lying. Or maybe they are. But that is generally my last belief. JMO
     
  7. oceanblueeyes

    oceanblueeyes Well-Known Member

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    I use to be one of those that put my full trust in LE. I no longer do so. I have seen several cases where people complained they did not tell the LE interviewer what they said they did and coincidently most of those interviews werent taped either.

    I will believe Mark. He has no reason to lie and what he says makes perfect sense to me. It would be very odd for a 6 year old to run away. Now if LE misunderstood him then that is on them and not the coach.

    At least he has done the right thing by coming out and setting the record straight.

    IMO
     
  8. ~n/t~

    ~n/t~ New Member

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    I wonder how many people in Arizona know that their witness statements can be made public? The guy probably didn't think this was going to turn out to be such a high profile case. Furthermore, with all the rumours about drug cartel involvement, it's no wonder he's going to deny what he said.

    :doh:
     
  9. spoiledmom

    spoiledmom Verified Insider

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    Unfortunately LE is not perfect and they do screw up from time to time. I have seen it myself. Sometimes they have good reason and other times they don't. I'm not sure what their reason is in this case.
     
  10. mamamia54

    mamamia54 Inactive

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    I wonder how many people are going to attempt to use those tag numbers that were in those docs? Literally hundreds of people are effected. Also their phone numbers. I don't feel those docs should have been given to the nation, without redacting all their personal info.
     
  11. Ransom

    Ransom Former Member

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    cluciano63

    I do find it odd, not to mention rude, for him to go to bed at 5am or so, when his wife only has maybe an hour left to sleep...



    Consider me RUDE. I do it all the time and my RUDE husband does the same thing. I never fuss or call him RUDE when he wakes up 2 times per night to go to the toilet because of his prostate problem even if I have to get up at o'dark thirty.

    My RUDE self is signing off. Taking some US Veterans to dinner. Would post the US flag, but the only one I can find is Canadian. How weird is that? :usa:
     
  12. cluciano63

    cluciano63 Well-Known Member

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    Lol, I am just thinking back to when I was working, and my husband would get home from his shift about 4:30AM...he would creep around like a cat until I got up at 6am, as I am one who can never go back to sleep, once awoken. Of course nowadays, being so familiar thanks to WS with all sorts of horrible crimes, I don't even try to sleep until he gets home...
     
  13. iSleuth

    iSleuth New Member

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    I think it is really interesting about the real stats for abuse/murder by Mom v. Dad.

    Especially the point about why an abuser wouldn't want to kill their victim...True

    But accidents happen. and one would wonder still if it were not an innocent accident- why didn't they call for an ambulance.

    ..Footboard, pillow, gaming chair, floor.

    The things that i keep going back to are the similarities with the Irwin case in that: both households have this " screen " business, both have timeline issues, K9 hits, both have some looming CPS ( or custody) involvement, and both have called their child's disappearance an "abduction".

    :truce:
     
  14. callyn

    callyn Well-Known Member

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    It sounds to me as if the officer doing the interview was only half-listening (hearing) and put his/her own interpretation on what Mark said. I have had this happen when someone questioned/talked to me and later I see their report of what I said :what: Sometimes it bears very little resemblance to what I actually stated. I don't believe it was done deliberately for some nefarious (love that word) reason, just sloppy work. JMO MOO :moo:
     
  15. johnQpublic

    johnQpublic Former Member

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    Well folks, After reviewing ALL of the PDF Dump, I have managed to find one person unrelated to the family that I see as a possible POI... see page 17 of 91 in PDF #3. There are a few entries in PDF #3 about the person mentioned who was walking thru the park from the washes with a mag lite flashlight which cause me to look at him with some questions. I found the PIMA county storm drain map and found that there is a 8 foot diameter tunnel exit south of the park that he may have gone in and from his demeanor in speaking to the officer when he was sighted comming out of the park... I have a feeling he was actually up to no good. JMO but in my mind, this is the first person outside of the family that I found Questionable.
     
  16. winterrose

    winterrose New Member

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    Something MT said got him a second formal interview. Frankly if he was looking to stay out of the spotlight, he's put himself in the middle of it now. Very strange, if I was anyone in these docs, unless I knew what happened to Isa or how it could have happened, any pertinent info at all, I'd just be quiet. Now people are wondering if he really had important info and if he's scared, worried about reputation or whatever reason, most people wouldn't even know who he was before that interview.
     
  17. pieper4

    pieper4 Active Member

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    Couldn't agree more, especially given that AZ is number one in the nation for identity theft already. I just don't understand the lack of redacting VINs, phone numbers and plate numbers. At.All.
     
  18. oceanblueeyes

    oceanblueeyes Well-Known Member

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    He doesnt sound scared to me at all. I commend him for having the courage to come out and correct LEs mistake.

    He has to know they arent going to like it because it makes them look inept like they did when they released the wrong video for days before they admitted it was the wrong one.

    Like Mark said he didnt even know Sergio that well.

    IMO
     
  19. TheTruthWillOut

    TheTruthWillOut Well-Known Member

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    But surely the procedure is that after completing the statement the officer hands it to you to read and sign?

    That is what I have always understood how these things work anyway!
     
  20. cluciano63

    cluciano63 Well-Known Member

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    Doesn't WS being LE-friendly include not assuming they are liars, unless proven otherwise...JMO
     
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