AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #23

[iSleuth]

I remember this too. Wasn't there a lot of attention aid to the area between the cars in the garage ?

JMO

:nods: between the cars, the trunk area of one and vacuum cleaner attachment kit? - can't seem to find it now.

But, in re reading so many of the docs, two different :waitasec:

1) In 4-4 tpd 1204210265! neighbor L> is quite a witness. She heard dogs, saw a family members , and.........what about this--> red and white camper az fxw485 and AAble movers AZ- CF2387 - (do we know whose camper that is?)

2) RC times are different to every source and recording officer. both 911 calls SC just left work. Then RC states 6:47 and thn to officer collecting statements from her from across the street later that day 7:30 Which is it?

I do not mean to :hypno:

What time did she leave?> Don't you always look at the clock when you leave for work? Do I have time to.....am I late??? Isn't there a big difference between 6:47 and 7:30 and 8 ish? I mean unless something...drastic happens at the last minutes that takes you off task....

 

[Jules71]

I read that the parents cell phones were confiscated as standard procedure. I have to wonder if there were any weird texts/calls to BC's brother that night since his cell was of interest to LE - so much so that they took photos of his calls/texts, etc.

I go back and forth between thinking this is a financial hoax and an accident cover up. I am thinking maybe SC left with BC's brother to dispose of Isa's body and BC could not leave until he got back - and maybe that is why her times are wacky? I wish we knew what her demeanor was like when she got to work. JMO.

 

[Gracelin]

I'm glad to see so many working to keep this thread alive
Keep this media link in mind when searching. Also add what you think may be important later.

AZ AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 Media & Doc Dump (No Discussion) - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Prayers that Isa will be found.

 

[Azcrabcakes]

I had to have surgery on my EYEBALL (imagine a high scream-y voice on that word), so I left my service dog with my parents for the day.

I warned them not to let him go out in their fenced yard alone, to take him out on lead but he turned out to be wilier than I was. My dad took him out on lead and when they went back in, my dad turned his back for a second to open the door and my service dog slipped out of the collar and was gone.

I am convinced he was looking for me.

The whole ten days he was gone, he was in an area about a quarter mile wide by maybe a mile long. There were two creeks in the area and railroad tracks. Even though it is a suburban environment, with the creeks and RR tracks, it was amazing how much wildlife was in the area (raccoons, possums, deer, fox, etc).

His breeder flew in to help with the search. Since she is an older, grandmotherly kind of person, she felt comfortable talking to neighbourhood kids without making their parents go berserk.

It was amazing to me just how much kids experience that their parents didn't know about! He had several encounters with kids (he loved kids), where he'd approach, give them kisses, play with them for awhile and then move on. And the kids hardly ever mentioned it to their parents. To the kids, it was just part of their day, like "played with Judy, climbed the willow tree, played with a strange dog, picked some flowers, read a book..."

In the end, it was just a matter of placing me and my voice within his earshot. His breeder was following him down the RR tracks and I was on the street near them. As soon as he heard me calling, she said his head went up and he went rocketing off the RR embankment to me.

He was clearly happy to see me but it was sort of like he was checking off a mental to-do list: find Mom, get burrs taken care of, con someone out of treats... As soon as he was done greeting me, he put the burrs under my hand and demanded I do something about them. The horror, his coiffure was disarranged (I spent more time on his hair during his lifetime than I ever spent on my own).

Other than the burrs, he was perfectly clean and in good condition. So much so that he took up his service dog duties that afternoon, went to a restaurant with me that evening and didn't look at all out of place.

I lost him to cancer nearly a year ago and I miss him more than I can say. If love and money were all it took, he would still be with me. It's just that he finally met an obstacle that even his heart could not overcome.

Thanks for sharing that story! I am a huge "dog person" and I empathize with you regarding your dog's loss. I'm also hoping your eye surgery was a success. I'm guessing and hoping you have a new dog.:beagle:

 

[time]

I thought Becky stated the door were locked. I believe she was referring to the front gate but will have to look it up. If that front gate was locked, the story is even more bizarre.

I would think they would make sure that door was locked due to the dogs possibly getting loose.

Some one else has probably brought this up, but your post made me think the front gate must have regularly been unlocked since dogs escaping was obviously a problem. I suspect they had a difficult time getting the kids to keep it locked as they went in and out?

I think RC was most probably talking about the front door being locked.

Also, she was only talking in the singular. Either she wasn't thinking about it or was ignoring the fact that other doors could have been left or found unlocked that night/morning. How would she have known unless she either asked SC or made her way through the entire house checking all the doors? Even if she had done the later and found a door unlocked, she couldn't assume when it had been unlocked unless she checked all the doors before she went to work.

 

[iSleuth]

I remember this too. Wasn't there a lot of attention aid to the area between the cars in the garage ?

JMO

<<The Police Department obtained two search warrants for the Celis home, Villaseñor said. He said obtaining the warrants is crucial to conducting a proper investigation.

A second search warrant was obtained after FBI dogs - one an expert at detecting unknown scents, and the other cadavers - "alerted on some things in the house," Villaseñor said. He did not specify which dog alerted to what in the house.>>

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/cri...cle_3fc57de1-a2a3-5085-895d-7e911259feb3.html

also see this....
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=22716&d=1338147018

:treadmill:

 

[Anita Richman]

Bumping for Isa. Where are you, baby girl?!

 

[GrainneDhu]

Thanks for sharing that story! I am a huge "dog person" and I empathize with you regarding your dog's loss. I'm also hoping your eye surgery was a success. I'm guessing and hoping you have a new dog.:beagle:

The EYEBALL (imagine high scream-y voice) surgery was indeed a success.

I had two other dogs and still have them; one is now 12 and the other is 5 years old. Neither of them is trained for service work, since I have become significantly more disabled since then and no longer have the energy or motivation to do it. They are much loved pets.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Just a reminder that there is a poll thread regarding the disappearance of Isabel Celis. There have been almost 200 votes cast thus far. If you haven't already voted, please do so. Here's the link to the poll:

What happened to Isabel Celis? - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

 

[SilkySifaka]

I read that the parents cell phones were confiscated as standard procedure. I have to wonder if there were any weird texts/calls to BC's brother that night since his cell was of interest to LE - so much so that they took photos of his calls/texts, etc.

I go back and forth between thinking this is a financial hoax and an accident cover up. I am thinking maybe SC left with BC's brother to dispose of Isa's body and BC could not leave until he got back - and maybe that is why her times are wacky? I wish we knew what her demeanor was like when she got to work. JMO.

How do you do that? I mean really do you pick up the phone and say hey brother of mine, i just killed my daughter, want to help me get rid of her body?

I know that couples sometimes do things together but generally they are talking about their fantasies and anything bizarre together first. What family member suggests killing their daughter to another unless its husband and wife and generally then the deed is done by one and the other is there so the coverup happens sort of naturally.

 

[Dr. Know?]

Someone asked about when the grand jury meets.

snipped

The Grand Jury is composed of sixteen people taken from regular juror pool. Instead of being impaneled to sit for a trial, they are given the responsibility of determining probable cause on felony charges. Grand Jurors are impaneled for 120 days and meet twice a week to hear cases.

more at link

http://www.pima.gov/publicdefender/crim_process.htm

 

[winterrose]

Some one else has probably brought this up, but your post made me think the front gate must have regularly been unlocked since dogs escaping was obviously a problem. I suspect they had a difficult time getting the kids to keep it locked as they went in and out?

I think RC was most probably talking about the front door being locked.

Also, she was only talking in the singular. Either she wasn't thinking about it or was ignoring the fact that other doors could have been left or found unlocked that night/morning. How would she have known unless she either asked SC or made her way through the entire house checking all the doors? Even if she had done the later and found a door unlocked, she couldn't assume when it had been unlocked unless she checked all the doors before she went to work.

In the radio show RC said the gate was locked, she said so someone had to have taken Isabel over the wall. It's totally understandable why LE doesn't think IC was taken out of the window. Actually SC states that in the couch interview, he says LE doesn't think the window is the exit and he doesn't either. But in the radio show, RC says she thinks Isabel was. So something or a number of things tell LE that wasn't the way.

 

[time]

In the radio show RC said the gate was locked, she said so someone had to have taken Isabel over the wall. It's totally understandable why LE doesn't think IC was taken out of the window. Actually SC states that in the couch interview, he says LE doesn't think the window is the exit and he doesn't either. But in the radio show, RC says she thinks Isabel was. So something or a number of things tell LE that wasn't the way.

Interesting, thank you. So I guess RC is claiming she unlocked the gate to leave for work and locked in back up? Did RC, SC, or LE ever talk about the other doors being locked?

 

[time]

One reason not to patronize horse races!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/47783671

I'm posting it mainly, not that I think cartels are involved, could be, but because it shows the reach of these cartels and their boldness.

 

[Jules71]

How do you do that? I mean really do you pick up the phone and say hey brother of mine, i just killed my daughter, want to help me get rid of her body?

I know that couples sometimes do things together but generally they are talking about their fantasies and anything bizarre together first. What family member suggests killing their daughter to another unless its husband and wife and generally then the deed is done by one and the other is there so the coverup happens sort of naturally.

Maybe if they are sociopaths they do it that way. But I imagined it would be more like "there's been a horrible accident and <modsnip> kind of situation. And I don't claim to have any real answers - it's just a possibility. I do not believe a stranger abducted Isa. IMO, she is either safe somewhere and this was for financial gain, or it was an accident and someone in the nuclear family is trying to protect someone else in the nuclear family. I do not believe they are cold blooded murderers. JMO.

 

[winterrose]

Interesting, thank you. So I guess RC is claiming she unlocked the gate to leave for work and locked in back up? Did RC, SC, or LE ever talk about the other doors being locked?

I don't remember if she did, but I do remember about the locked gate online somewhere, because we were talking about it on here when I listened to the show.

 

[Prof]

Interesting, thank you. So I guess RC is claiming she unlocked the gate to leave for work and locked in back up? Did RC, SC, or LE ever talk about the other doors being locked?

I just relistened to 20 minutes of the radio show and did not hear any statement about the door or gate or window. RC and SC come in at about 73 minutes...
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/soluti...8/judge-judys-bailiff-meet-petri-hawkins-byrd

The only mention of the door being locked or unlocked that I remember was at the of her 911 call.
http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/story/18395708/celis-911-call-someone-broke-in-and-grabbed-her

She was in a panic, and it is difficult to say if she meant that is how someone got in or how someone got out. My guess is that she misunderstood the operator to be asking if there were any signs of a break in. She could have meant the gate, as she states jumping over the wall...

"Q – Okay. Does uh, any uh, marks, scars?

A2 – Other than the window out, I can't see anything else. And the door is locked to outside, so they had to have jumped over the fence or, I don't know what they did, but oh my God, the cops are here, can I just hang up…"

http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/story/18395708/celis-911-call-someone-broke-in-and-grabbed-her

When the family were shown coming and going, they seemed to use the garage entrance to the home. JMO

I did not hear SC mention locked doors.

I paid attention throughout this case to the doors, as one of my first questions was whether RC noticed any of the doors (front door, back door, kitchen to garage door, or yard gate) being unlocked.

On a normal day what door did she use...on a normal day when she doesn't check on her daughter, does she check all doors to see if they are locked on her way out? would she notice? I don't know.

 

[Azcrabcakes]

We lock our gate, because we have a pool, dogs and grandchildren in the yard, at various times. My husband leaves tools out sometimes. However, I know no one else that locks the gate to their back yards here in AZ. I am sure there ARE people who do, but I think it is more customary to leave them unlocked.

The wall around IC's house is not that high, not all the way around anyway. Ours are 6 feet high, and easy enough for a person to scale. I've seen live TV chases here, filmed from a pursuing helicopter, that showed the bad guy running up and over the wall, easily. Our neighbor's home has been robbed twice in the last few months, and the robbers climbed the wall, and took stuff out over the back wall, not through the front door. They even lifted a 52inch plasma TV over.

IF more than one person was involved, a 6 year old could be handed over a wall to another person. It is not that difficult, especially with the wall being less than 6 feet high. These walls are often called "fences" here in AZ, so if you read a report calling their wall a fence... But my money would be on walking through the gate.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Regardless of when Sierra's parents or relatives were ruled out, they have been by now and I think we can all agree there is a perp in custody. Sierra's case is not like Isa's case. The two aren't even close in age.

In Isa's case the parents have not been ruled out as far as we know. LE has been focusing in on the parents despite what has taken place in any other cases across the country and despite whether people think LE "should" or "should not" be focusing on Isa's family and especially her parents. As part of their investigation...they are.

If that is an abhorrent thought then let TPD know. Write to them. Email them. Or call them. Tell them where they should be focusing their efforts if where they are spending time in their investigation is not useful. Have a dialog with them directly.

Of course they have been by now since the suspect has been arrested and charged, but the point of the discussion came from some who said Sierra's family, and mom's boyfriend had been ruled out before an arrest was made. That is the part that is not accurate, and when Sheriff Smith came out, and said no one had been ruled out it fueled the debate between the ones who thought Marlene was involved or covering up for Rick and those who felt the family had already been ruled out. In fact many used SSs later announcement to support their opinion of guilt against Marlene and Rick.

Imo, now it is being used for the opposite purpose on this thread as if it means Isa's parents are guilty of something because Sierra's family was ruled out ,and Isa's parents havent been. Now the truth is SS said no one connected to the Lamar case had been ruled out, and that was the way it stood when an arrest of AGT happened. Once SS spoke out on the issue no one from her department ever came out after then and disagreed with her later statement.

Just like it happened when John Couey was arrested or Mitchell when they finally found him with Elizabeth. None of the family members connected to those case were ever ruled out before the actual suspect caught.

I do see some similarities. Many posters on both cases believes/believed very quickly from the very first that the family members or a SO were/is involved. Some believe it was a kidnapping by a stranger from the beginning in Sierra's case and some also believe that is what happened to Isa.

I am not sure what age has to do with it when kidnapping a victim. Many children around Isa's age have been abducted by a stranger pedophile and murdered.

It is the individual choice of the predator that decides what age his victim is going to be. Thus AGT chose Sierra but a pedophile will also pick those who are younger such as Isa, Somer, Shasta etc.....who were 7 or 8.

So if we go by the facts that SS made a point later on to say no one was ruled out when she knew her department already had AGT in their sights does the mean TPD also want the 'suspects' or 'POIs' to think TPD has the family in their sights when behind the scenes they have someone else in mind altogether?

I do remember reading or seeing TPD say they had gathered information on other abduction cases in the country in order to see how those LE department handled the investigation. I wonder if they have been closely keeping up with Sierra's case.

IMO

 

[pieper4]

No idea if this is how this family uses their garage, but most people I know here who have a garage with an automatic door opener enter and exit their homes through the garage. In the re-enactment footage, we see Jr. using what appears to be the keypad to an alarm system by the door in the garage to get into the home. If that's what I am seeing, then nearly certain that the parents at least drive into the garage and enter the home through the entry into their laundry area. Or conversely, exit the home get in their car and open the garage door automatically and drive off... hitting the remote to close the garage after they've exited.

Echoing Azcrabcakes... it is very common here to have wall/fences taller than the Celis family's. Mine are between 6 and 8 feet tall, depending on the part of the yard. Walls are much better than fences at keeping out critters, as snakes, etc. can easily get under fences. And dogs can dig under fences and take off. Many folks do "dummy lock" their gates or leave them just latched, but unlocked; those with pools tend to not do so for fear of someone gaining access and drowning.

Taste of local color: Some older homes still use living ocotillo for fencing. It makes an effective deterrent against much of the wildlife and human intruders. Think of living, upright barbwire.