AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #25

[SapphireSteel]

I was told by the Celis family that Isabel was kidnapped. I have not seen or heard anything to make me think otherwise. Without something substantial beyond just speculation based on released information (which is worthless), I don't see how anyone can think otherwise. Emotional reactions to interviews and analyzing the demeanor of the family are not enough. Everyone reacts differently to stress.

My heart goes out to the Celis family and Isabel.

Did they actually use the word "kidnapped"?

If they did, that implies a ransom demand...!.:websleuther:

 

[Npcmcd]

I wouldn't hold an elementary school child too accountable for syntax.

 

[SapphireSteel]

You haven't been on WS long.

I'm very sorry for the way you and your partner were tangled up in this mess.

I agree, demeanour means nothing on its own. I once watched an "eyes for lies" type show where they showed a man at a press conference sobbing over his missing step daughter.

LE had forced him to speak in a high pressure situation, at a presser, with journalists and whirring cameras and bright lights, specifically to analyse his behaviour.

I watched it, and it was OBVIOUS he was lying through his teeth. He was crying without tears, touching and rubbing his face constantly, not answering questions directly or making eye contact, going off on tangents.

LE were excited and positive they had him...until the DNA results came back that is, and proved conclusively that he was not the perp.

It really was very eye opening. Some people just look guilty even when they're not.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Did they actually use the word "kidnapped"?

If they did, that implies a ransom demand...!.:websleuther:

How? Most people use kidnapped and abducted interchangeably. Children are kidnapped all the time without there being a ransom demand.

 

[LauraT]

How? Most people use kidnapped and abducted interchangeably. Children are kidnapped all the time without there being a ransom demand.

If my daughter was gone from her room, I would never use the word kidnapped! I would be running about yelling her name and saying she was missing, I would call the police and report her missing...but to use the word kidnapped...nup. Not unless I either had evidence of that, via a ransom, a note or whatever or saw someone taking her. I think Isas brother used the word kidnapped as that is what SC had told him!

 

[SapphireSteel]

How? Most people use kidnapped and abducted interchangeably. Children are kidnapped all the time without there being a ransom demand.

If my child or little sister or cousin or friend vanished from her bedroom in the middle of the night, I would say "my x is missing! Help me!" and be calling her name.

I wouldn't say she was kidnapped, or abducted, or stolen, or sat up the nearest tree, or a victim of alien abduction, because I wouldn't know which it was, and it is unnecessary extra information anyway, in a situation where you are rushing from house to house looking for her.

Language is significant.

That is why you and I can converse on here and understand exactly what each other is saying, including humour and sarcasm and other nuance, even though we come from different societies. We understand humour or snark ONLY because we recognise the meaning and rhythym of the language chosen at a very deep instinctive level.

You can change one word in a sentence and alter the entire meaning. For example, you can say "he told a lie" or "he told a mistruth". The words appear to a foreigner to mean exactly the same thing, but natural english speakers know "mistruth" is far softer than "lie", therefore assumes mitigating factors and a lesser offense.

If a young person/child says "X was kidnapped" I would almost guarantee they had been told that by someone. It is not natural language to select when you have no idea where the missing child has gone.

It's called Forensic Linguistics, very interesting. This is quite a good article discussing its origins and use in recent cases, like Chris Coleman and the Unibomber.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/07/23/120723fa_fact_hitt

 

[Npcmcd]

If my child or little sister or cousin or friend vanished from her bedroom in the middle of the night, I would say "my x is missing! Help me!" and be calling her name.

I wouldn't say she was kidnapped, or abducted, or stolen, or sat up the nearest tree, or a victim of alien abduction, because I wouldn't know which it was, and it is unnecessary extra information anyway, in a situation where you are rushing from house to house looking for her.

Language is significant.

That is why you and I can converse on here and understand exactly what each other is saying, including humour and sarcasm and other nuance, even though we come from different societies. We understand humour or snark ONLY because we recognise the meaning and rhythym of the language chosen at a very deep instinctive level.

You can change one word in a sentence and alter the entire meaning. For example, you can say "he told a lie" or "he told a mistruth". The words appear to a foreigner to mean exactly the same thing, but natural english speakers know "mistruth" is far softer than "lie", therefore assumes mitigating factors and a lesser offense.

If a young person/child says "X was kidnapped" I would almost guarantee they had been told that by someone. It is not natural language to select when you have no idea where the missing child has gone.

It's called Forensic Linguistics, very interesting. This is quite a good article discussing its origins and use in recent cases, like Chris Coleman and the Unibomber.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/07/23/120723fa_fact_hitt

You are operating under the assumption that everyone knows the difference between abducted and kidnapped. Only because I follow this stuff now that my name has been attached to it do I understand that many people associate kidnapping with ransom.

If I said "An alligator ate my child." and you in turn said, "That animal clearly has a narrow snout and it's teeth are visible when it's mouth is closed, that's obviously a crocodile, what are you hiding!", that would be unreasonable. I obviously can't differentiate (particularly in the stress of the moment) between crocodiles and alligators. The same might be said for kidnapping and abducting.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

I still don't think it's that weird. If the parents are innocent, and they woke up, and had no clue where Isabel is...when you consider how child abductions are always in the news, stranger danger, etc...it doesn't seem shocking to me that in this day and age, people would automatically assume that their child had been kidnapped/abducted; basically that someone had taken their child, and she hadn't just gone outside for a walk.

 

[prima.facie]

If my child or little sister or cousin or friend vanished from her bedroom in the middle of the night, I would say "my x is missing! Help me!" and be calling her name.

I wouldn't say she was kidnapped, or abducted, or stolen, or sat up the nearest tree, or a victim of alien abduction, because I wouldn't know which it was, and it is unnecessary extra information anyway, in a situation where you are rushing from house to house looking for her.

Language is significant.

That is why you and I can converse on here and understand exactly what each other is saying, including humour and sarcasm and other nuance, even though we come from different societies. We understand humour or snark ONLY because we recognise the meaning and rhythym of the language chosen at a very deep instinctive level.

You can change one word in a sentence and alter the entire meaning. For example, you can say "he told a lie" or "he told a mistruth". The words appear to a foreigner to mean exactly the same thing, but natural english speakers know "mistruth" is far softer than "lie", therefore assumes mitigating factors and a lesser offense.

If a young person/child says "X was kidnapped" I would almost guarantee they had been told that by someone. It is not natural language to select when you have no idea where the missing child has gone.

It's called Forensic Linguistics, very interesting. This is quite a good article discussing its origins and use in recent cases, like Chris Coleman and the Unibomber.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/07/23/120723fa_fact_hitt

Agreed.

For anyone who is interested, I have a great book recommendation (you can get it for ipad/kindle....

Im a forensic and intel major and just read the book "Spy the Lie: Former CIA Officers Teach You How to Detect Deception" Amazon.com: Spy the Lie: Former CIA Officers Teach You How to Detect Deception (9781250005854)

It is a very easy read with great examples and if you read it than watch interviews of people, you will begin to pick things up easily.

 

[pieper4]

You are operating under the assumption that everyone knows the difference between abducted and kidnapped. Only because I follow this stuff now that my name has been attached to it do I understand that many people associate kidnapping with ransom.

If I said "An alligator ate my child." and you in turn said, "That animal clearly has a narrow snout and it's teeth are visible when it's mouth is closed, that's obviously a crocodile, what are you hiding!", that would be unreasonable. I obviously can't differentiate (particularly in the stress of the moment) between crocodiles and alligators. The same might be said for kidnapping and abducting.

Welcome... and thanks for the insightful narrative. I'm also a local, and promise you I would have headed out with a flashlight, cellphone and water in an instant if the incident were in my neighborhood (don't have/want a gun). Hell, I've done as much numerous times for sneaky neighbor dogs who are on the lose as well as a 100 lb African tortoise who meandered from home. I'm also the dork with the saw 10 minutes later when microbursts take down trees in the yards of the elderly or single parents.

I believe that word choices are significant. I also believe that word choices in kids are generally mimicked. "Kidnapped" or "abducted" aren't common choices for kids. "Taken", "missing", or even "stolen" are. I don't know if the Celis boys are bilingual. That can muddy word choices for sure in kids, especially under stress or in a hurry.

Honestly? I am more disturbed over the appearance that TPD brushed off your reports about the bedding/curtains in the wash. The search warrant, even after you claim to have offered up your home, yard, clothing, etc., I *think* is just cautious protocol.

I agree without reservation that the doc dump was essentially useless. I personally know of several interviews that took place which never appeared in the dump and other specific tips that weren't included (and looney by anyone's measure).

Is there any sense in the neighborhood there that Isa will come home or where she might be, whether alive or deceased? Does the family seem to be resuming life as normal at their house? So much of their public personae seems so odd... so very odd.

And for those who know me... here it comes: Can you share any personal perceptions about the Uncle/cousin/spokesperson in the days shortly after Isa went missing?

 

[Gracelin]

Welcome to WS Npcmcd! I am also grateful someone who knows this child will speak publicly! Many here would probably have done exactly what you did. Look for Isa..

My thoughts have been that if she were indeed kidnapped, That one of the boys followed the perp as far as he could. That the wrong date surveillance film is the right date.
Poor Isa, I pray everyday for her..

 

[Port80]

Welcome to WS Npcmcd!

In terms of new content picked up by Google's databases, I wanted to share a link to "Google Alerts" which send you a note whenever content matching a specific keyword phrase is matched. I've used it as a tool for many types to job tasks, and I think it would be useful in any of these cases as there is such an abundance of information.

When it comes to the Internet, yeah, it's where accountability and common sense seem to come to an end in many ways. I just wanted to reiterate that Websleuths is made up of some very resourceful people.

I still have hope Isa. No one can tell me otherwise.

http://www.google.com/alerts

 

[Jules71]

Oh Isabel - where are you?

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

 

[SapphireSteel]

Agreed.

For anyone who is interested, I have a great book recommendation (you can get it for ipad/kindle....

Im a forensic and intel major and just read the book "Spy the Lie: Former CIA Officers Teach You How to Detect Deception" Amazon.com: Spy the Lie: Former CIA Officers Teach You How to Detect Deception (9781250005854): Philip Houston, Michael Floyd, Susan Carnicero, Don Tennant: Books

It is a very easy read with great examples and if you read it than watch interviews of people, you will begin to pick things up easily.

Thank you, it is not often I get support when discussing FL on here! It seems to still be written off as junk science by the majority which is a shame especially on a sleuthing site.

The FBI, the CIA, Law Enforcement and the Armed Forces and anyone at all in the field of investigations know how important language is, both what's said and what's implied.

NO ONE would assume their missing child is "kidnapped", especially ordinary people who are not famous or particularly wealthy.

The word itself describes what happened. It gives extra information. So does the word "abducted".

Those attempting to deceive are often tripped up by adding extra information where none is required as this implies deception.

As far as people from Non English Speaking Background go, if you have dealt with many of them you know how very important the correct word is to them. If they don't get the "right" word, they won't be understood. They ask english speakers around them what the right word is, then run off and write it down.

I live with some Chinese and this is usually accomplished with a bit of arm waving and pointing, but we get there. They are very particular about getting across their meaning perfectly and learning the correct terminology.

If they were trying to tell me they studied geology, and I said "oh, geography" they would say "No, No, I study rocks" as it is very important to them to be properly understood, just as it would be to us in a foreign land. They would then rush off and write down geology and geography too as they realise they have similar sounds but different meanings and they don't want to mix them up again.

A child disappearing mysteriously from a bedroom overnight is "missing" in everyone's language, unless of course there's a ransom note. Even a non English speaker would not say "kidnapped" because kidnapping is very specific, and essentially, the wrong word unless you know for a fact the child was indeed kidnapped, or are repeating what you've been told.

My cat has just gone missing. I suspect she's been stolen (she's valuable), but I didn't go knocking on my neighbour's doors saying "she's been stolen", as I don't actually know that for sure, and saying this would lead into a bunch of other irrelevant questions and observations by my neighbour.

I knocked on their doors and said "she's missing, have you seen her?".

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Thank you, it is not often I get support when discussing FL on here! It seems to still be written off as junk science by the majority which is a shame especially on a sleuthing site.

The FBI, the CIA, Law Enforcement and the Armed Forces and anyone at all in the field of investigations know how important language is, both what's said and what's implied.

NO ONE would assume their missing child is "kidnapped", especially ordinary people who are not famous or particularly wealthy.

The word itself describes what happened. It gives extra information. So does the word "abducted".

Those attempting to deceive are often tripped up by adding extra information where none is required as this implies deception.

As far as people from Non English Speaking Background go, if you have dealt with many of them you know how very important the correct word is to them. If they don't get the "right" word, they won't be understood. They ask english speakers around them what the right word is, then run off and write it down.

I live with some Chinese and this is usually accomplished with a bit of arm waving and pointing, but we get there. They are very particular about getting across their meaning perfectly and learning the correct terminology.

If they were trying to tell me they studied geology, and I said "oh, geography" they would say "No, No, I study rocks" as it is very important to them to be properly understood, just as it would be to us in a foreign land. They would then rush off and write down geology and geography too as they realise they have similar sounds but different meanings and they don't want to mix them up again.

A child disappearing mysteriously from a bedroom overnight is "missing" in everyone's language, unless of course there's a ransom note. Even a non English speaker would not say "kidnapped" because kidnapping is very specific, and essentially, the wrong word unless you know for a fact the child was indeed kidnapped, or are repeating what you've been told.

My cat has just gone missing. I suspect she's been stolen (she's valuable), but I didn't go knocking on my neighbour's doors saying "she's been stolen", as I don't actually know that for sure, and saying this would lead into a bunch of other irrelevant questions and observations by my neighbour.

I knocked on their doors and said "she's missing, have you seen her?".

You're assuming that everyone associates the word "kidnapping" with ransom notes, though. Most people think of a kidnapping as an abduction, as someone has taken their child. It's all the same thing to most people. People hear about ordinary kids being kidnapped all the time, so I don't know why people would think it only happens to the wealthy or famous.

I don't find it that strange to notice your child isn't in her bed, is nowhere in the house, and to assume that someone has taken her; that someone has kidnapped her.

 

[ksprincess]

I would have to agree that atleast in the U.S. the words kidnapped and abducted are used interchangeably. If someone said a child was kidnapped I would not immediately assume it was for ransom, just that the child had been taken by someone. That being said I do feel like it is odd for someone to immediately say a child had been kidnapped or abducted until you knew for sure or had actually seen it happen. Until then I think most parents would just say missing or lost.

 

[CJMAJORGIRL24]

I was told by the Celis family that Isabel was kidnapped. I have not seen or heard anything to make me think otherwise. Without something substantial beyond just speculation based on released information (which is worthless), I don't see how anyone can think otherwise. Emotional reactions to interviews and analyzing the demeanor of the family are not enough. Everyone reacts differently to stress.

My heart goes out to the Celis family and Isabel.

I am sorry for what you have been through. I also wanted to thank you for searching for Isa...

I will tell you that Mark Klaas has said a zillion times (ok maybe not a zillion-but close ) that when a child goes missing, the parents of that child (or whoever is with the child when he/she goes missing) has to become "transparent" so that LE can rule them out, and they can move on to the REAL perp. I have yet to see Isa's parents becaome transparent and until the they do, they remain at the top of my list.

:seeya:

 

[Port80]

I took a friend to Tucson Medical Center ER yesterday. It struck me as I walked in the doorway, a large poster of Isa's photos was placed where everyone entering the building would see it. Several nurses and doctors were wearing purple ribbons. One of the physician's assistants mentioned I look familiar. I mentioned I was creator of the Facebook page, and we had likely seen each other during volunteering in person.

The point I'm getting to is that there is genuine concern for Isabel Celis where BC works as a nurse. Thus, I'm reaffirmed in my feeling that BC isn't responsible in any way for this nightmare of an event.

 

[MLO]

A child disappearing mysteriously from a bedroom overnight is "missing" in everyone's language, unless of course there's a ransom note.

I strongly disagree with that. If I woke up and any of my 4 children were gone I would assume they had been kidnapped. I mean, where else would they be? None have the inclination to leave in the middle of the night, no one has permission to take them from the home, that leaves kidnapping. Kidnapped, abducted, taken, however you want to phrase it, I would assume that is what happened.

My DH and I are both native English speakers, I am Australian with a British background and my DH speaks The Queens English. Kidnapped is used quite often on our news, despite there not being a ransom. Kidnap and abduct are used interchangeably.

My older 3 children (aged 5,7 and 9) would use the word kidnapped, I'm not sure that they know the word abduct (that word has alien connotations to most I know), but they may use taken but they would also add "by a bad/scary person" because that is the only kind of person who takes children, right?

Our school has recently sent home notes staing that there have been attempted kidnappings on children walking to school. I'm sure no one assumed the girls were being targeted for a ransom.

 

[ksprincess]

I took a friend to Tucson Medical Center ER yesterday. It struck me as I walked in the doorway, a large poster of Isa's photos was placed where everyone entering the building would see it. Several nurses and doctors were wearing purple ribbons. One of the physician's assistants mentioned I look familiar. I mentioned I was creator of the Facebook page, and we had likely seen each other during volunteering in person.

The point I'm getting to is that there is genuine concern for Isabel Celis where BC works as a nurse. Thus, I'm reaffirmed in my feeling that BC isn't responsible in any way for this nightmare of an event.

I also would like to believe that as a Mom who appears to love her children very much and as a respected nurse that RC is not responsible for what happened to Isa. However I think if she was not responsible she does have knowledge or at least suspicions about what happened. Maybe she is not telling what she knows or suspects because she fears for her other children or maybe because shes been told if she stays quiet Isa will come home. Or maybe she thinks she will be blamed or prosecuted for keeping quiet.