AZ AZ - Tempe, HispFem, UP1987, 15-19, hitchhiking, overdose, Apr'02

[ex-stat]

Does anyone else think that maybe the reason Tempe girl has not been identified is she is not from Tempe? I did not actually believe the hitchhiking thing as we only have the man's word for it and I tend to think he has spun a long convenient story, how else do you explain a girl in your vehicle? But that does not mean that she wasn't from out of the area.

I do understand that people think the family may not be able to come forward because of visa issues, if they are illegal then they get deported? If that is the case then would taking a picture around local communities help? Or choosing where to put it up in cafes, bars, and bodegas (sorry, I am not American and I don't know the right term, I hope this is accurate) rather than the more usual methods? I know at least with me, if people put up my picture in the city centre no one I know would see it, they would have to go to a completely different quarter.

 

[ex-stat]

Changed my view on this, on reading more I wonder if the man knew her, she was a family friend, neighbour, friend of a friend, something like that. To me that's more likely than the hitch hiking thing which sounds like an excuse. She went around there, there was cocaine there, she overdosed, he rushes her out (evidence for that), the door is left wide open, and then we know how things unfold. I won't post again unless other people do but I really, really hope someone can solve this. The only exception would be if it could somehow badly affect her family, given the deportation issue? I'm sure others will know more about this than me.

 

[thefragile7393]

I'd love to hear some local, 30-40 yo Hispanic woman opinion about the likelyness of such a girl:
- teenage,
- likely poor or low income family,
- possibly homeless,
- likely illegally in US,
- in early 2002
to be addicted to cocaine of all the drugs. Does it sound likely? Possible? Unlikely? Almost impossible?

Yes it sounds likely and very possible.

 

[ex-stat]

Esmeralda Guadarma - The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)

No picture. I know the date is somewhat later but given the group home have not even submitted a photo anywhere, I wonder if there could have been a delay in reporting or an error. Her ethnicity is listed as Hispanic on some sites and White on others which I think could potentially cause problems with searches in addition to that.

Candi Gramajo - The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
No picture. She was 14 when she disappeared so possibly 15 in April 2002 and was known to be travelling.

I know these are extremely long shots

 

[beubeubeu]

Esmeralda Guadarma - The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)

No picture. I know the date is somewhat later but given the group home have not even submitted a photo anywhere, I wonder if there could have been a delay in reporting or an error. Her ethnicity is listed as Hispanic on some sites and White on others which I think could potentially cause problems with searches in addition to that.

Candi Gramajo - The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
No picture. She was 14 when she disappeared so possibly 15 in April 2002 and was known to be travelling.

I know these are extremely long shots

I don't want to sound judgemental, but how well those group homes are supervised and kept if in case of young girl going missing they're unable or unwilling to deliver her picture to make her missing person's report/file actually useful in search? Shouldn't they to the very least have access to some sort of group school picture? Anything?
How those girls could ever be located? No pictures, no DNA, no dental records? How to rule them out as possibly being some UID somewhere, if there is nothing to compare anything to?

 

[ex-stat]

Yeah I was upset by that. I just would have thought as standard that a group home would take pictures within the first 24 hours of arrival - so they have face photos of everyone in case anyone goes missing. Maybe she went missing in the first few hours after getting there, but like you point out surely they could have accessed a photograph from elsewhere? School? At that point the individual is their responsibility and yep - I have real issues with this like yourself.

The lack of photos is the reason I put both of those up - because I feel they are so unlikely to be identified.

I wonder if there is any way for an investigator to find out which group home (it says Greenville, South Carolina) and see if there were photographs. In 2002 would digital cameras have been in use in the USA or (my worry) would they have used film camera or something? Family members may really care about her - not everyone who goes into a group home has no caring family members (who could have photographs).

Regarding Candi, again a school photo or family photo?

I suppose missing persons may have been treated differently back then and there was a lack of social media and so on, but I would still hope that there would be at least one photo. One is all that's needed?

 

[EmiliaRT007]

I noticed in Tempe Girl’s PM photo (not the ME photo but the one where she was found) she has these two things near her shoulders and chest. Looks like defib stickers?

Maybe they thought she was unconscious at the scene. To me she doesn’t even look deceased, she just looks like she’s sleeping or passed out. I doubt the PMI on her is accurate. There is no way that she’s been laying there dead for 24 hours when she was found. Looks like maybe 4 hours max.

Does she have any rule-outs? I have been thinking about her recently.

 

[beubeubeu]

I noticed in Tempe Girl’s PM photo (not the ME photo but the one where she was found) she has these two things near her shoulders and chest. Looks like defib stickers?

Maybe they thought she was unconscious at the scene. To me she doesn’t even look deceased, she just looks like she’s sleeping or passed out. I doubt the PMI on her is accurate. There is no way that she’s been laying there dead for 24 hours when she was found. Looks like maybe 4 hours max.

Does she have any rule-outs? I have been thinking about her recently.

I believe that "within 24 hours" is just the very basic classification, and it could practically as well mean approx 23 hours or 1 hour.
And there is pretty much no claim from even remotely reliable source saying that she may be lying there for as many as 24 hours. During the day it's relatively busy parking used by workers and customers of nearby businesses.
And it got narrowed down pretty conclusively that almost certainly she was there for less than 12 hours. It doesn't seem like we're going to ever have anything more specific.
As for where she was found - employees who were last to leave would see her if she was there as they were leaving, and they didn't. So: reasonable and theoretical assumption that she wasn't there yet.

That highely unreliable (IMO) guy claimed that he, and his unidentified companion/s dropped her there in the late evening hours... But did they? We don't know and we won't know.
Cause even in his story (more of which you can read in this thread) what works more or less as facts is that:
- box with CD's was accidentally dropped there with the girl - strongly implying that the guy's girlfriend's car was on the scene,
- guy WAS NOT driving that car in later evening hours, he left it with "his cousin" and demanded to be picked up by his girlfriend,
So IMO, we can't even fully rule out the possibility that he was covering for someone, and whoever dumped her there did so much later that he claimed to.
No sightings that we know of.
No surveillance capturing the car, him, this poor girl that we know of.
Its just narrative from a guy who offered his story, via phone, likely shortly before fleeing the US, and it's credibility IMO is very low.

Don't know about defibrilation stickers. It surely looks like she has them on her, but it could be just part of the drill and making sure if she maybe still has some vital functions.

 

[beubeubeu]

Yeah I was upset by that. I just would have thought as standard that a group home would take pictures within the first 24 hours of arrival - so they have face photos of everyone in case anyone goes missing. Maybe she went missing in the first few hours after getting there, but like you point out surely they could have accessed a photograph from elsewhere? School? At that point the individual is their responsibility and yep - I have real issues with this like yourself.

I have no idea how the formalities look like (or looked like), but logically thinking I'd expect every child should have their own "case file", that consist not only the very basics but also pictures and even fingerprints, medical records (both had no dental care?).
Group homes also should have some sort of yearbooks or to the very least albums with pictures of kids.
Cause if not, then how could they prove that they're offering proper care to the kids? How to identify kids even? 14ish yo girls still can grow few inches, hair length and color could be easily changed, majority of people has brown eyes and most of them don't have any ID or drivers licences yet, so let's say I'm some sort of supervisor, visiting such group home to check if everything there is okay - and I wouldn't be even able to check if all kids who are supposed to be there are still there, alive? Cause no pics in files, no anything?

I wonder if there is any way for an investigator to find out which group home (it says Greenville, South Carolina) and see if there were photographs. In 2002 would digital cameras have been in use in the USA or (my worry) would they have used film camera or something? Family members may really care about her - not everyone who goes into a group home has no caring family members (who could have photographs).

Regarding Candi, again a school photo or family photo?

I suppose missing persons may have been treated differently back then and there was a lack of social media and so on, but I would still hope that there would be at least one photo. One is all that's needed?

There has to be a way to get through everything. WIth the suspicion of crime commited in such home, they'd get through everything.
Sadly even caring family members doesn't equal = people able to fight for justice, get some media attention, exposure, help, support from community and what's necessary to have a case going.
It looks like they were classified as not very important cases, likely runaways who can take care of themselves and don't need to be searched for. Cause how else can anyone explain that?

But if it looks like that with Candi and Esmeralda then maybe it was similar (or worse) with group homes in Arizona?

 

[EmiliaRT007]

I believe that "within 24 hours" is just the very basic classification, and it could practically as well mean approx 23 hours or 1 hour.
And there is pretty much no claim from even remotely reliable source saying that she may be lying there for as many as 24 hours. During the day it's relatively busy parking used by workers and customers of nearby businesses.
And it got narrowed down pretty conclusively that almost certainly she was there for less than 12 hours. It doesn't seem like we're going to ever have anything more specific.
As for where she was found - employees who were last to leave would see her if she was there as they were leaving, and they didn't. So: reasonable and theoretical assumption that she wasn't there yet.

That highely unreliable (IMO) guy claimed that he, and his unidentified companion/s dropped her there in the late evening hours... But did they? We don't know and we won't know.
Cause even in his story (more of which you can read in this thread) what works more or less as facts is that:
- box with CD's was accidentally dropped there with the girl - strongly implying that the guy's girlfriend's car was on the scene,
- guy WAS NOT driving that car in later evening hours, he left it with "his cousin" and demanded to be picked up by his girlfriend,
So IMO, we can't even fully rule out the possibility that he was covering for someone, and whoever dumped her there did so much later that he claimed to.
No sightings that we know of.
No surveillance capturing the car, him, this poor girl that we know of.
Its just narrative from a guy who offered his story, via phone, likely shortly before fleeing the US, and it's credibility IMO is very low.

Don't know about defibrilation stickers. It surely looks like she has them on her, but it could be just part of the drill and making sure if she maybe still has some vital functions.

Yup. I don’t believe the driver one bit. This girl also doesn’t look like a habitual drug user or addict. I’m worried that the driver abd the other guy in the car coerced her into snorting the cocaine. And the girlfriend didn’t know this adult man was picking up this random teenage girl and selling her drugs, which ended up killing her? And apparently the police didn’t pick up so they just left the girl there alone and dying? The whole story sounds fishy. I think about this girl often. I’m 16, around the same age. I feel so bad for her. I really do think the driver and “dealer” if there was one coerced her into taking the drugs.

 

[EmiliaRT007]

I believe that "within 24 hours" is just the very basic classification, and it could practically as well mean approx 23 hours or 1 hour.
And there is pretty much no claim from even remotely reliable source saying that she may be lying there for as many as 24 hours. During the day it's relatively busy parking used by workers and customers of nearby businesses.
And it got narrowed down pretty conclusively that almost certainly she was there for less than 12 hours. It doesn't seem like we're going to ever have anything more specific.
As for where she was found - employees who were last to leave would see her if she was there as they were leaving, and they didn't. So: reasonable and theoretical assumption that she wasn't there yet.

That highely unreliable (IMO) guy claimed that he, and his unidentified companion/s dropped her there in the late evening hours... But did they? We don't know and we won't know.
Cause even in his story (more of which you can read in this thread) what works more or less as facts is that:
- box with CD's was accidentally dropped there with the girl - strongly implying that the guy's girlfriend's car was on the scene,
- guy WAS NOT driving that car in later evening hours, he left it with "his cousin" and demanded to be picked up by his girlfriend,
So IMO, we can't even fully rule out the possibility that he was covering for someone, and whoever dumped her there did so much later that he claimed to.
No sightings that we know of.
No surveillance capturing the car, him, this poor girl that we know of.
Its just narrative from a guy who offered his story, via phone, likely shortly before fleeing the US, and it's credibility IMO is very low.

Don't know about defibrilation stickers. It surely looks like she has them on her, but it could be just part of the drill and making sure if she maybe still has some vital functions.

Did the driver or supposed dealer ever get arrested for giving her the cocaine?

 

[ex-stat]

I don't even think that they were in a car! I'm completely with you on the story being fabricated and it sounds like it is all a convenient lie. The way he tells it means he can't be charged with anything.

I was thinking about this before and I wonder if the man and his gf actually knew her. I do not think the gf was there when this happened. As far as I recall she was very concerned about her items being found and wanted to confront him.

It makes me furious because had someone called emergency services right away maybe the outcome would have been completely different. But there is a reason why they didn't place her outside nearby and do that. I think he knew her. Remember he told this story after he knew that she had passed away.

A lot of people thought that this took place in the man's apartment (as the doors were wide open when they returned, he wouldn't let his gf in and they stayed elsewhere that night). The hitchhiker bit IMO was made up to cover himself. He conveniently didn't know her name, etc.

I think that it is likely that he knew her - maybe a neighbour, living in the same place, family friend, acquaintance somehow.

Just my opinion.

 

[beubeubeu]

Yup. I don’t believe the driver one bit. This girl also doesn’t look like a habitual drug user or addict. I’m worried that the driver abd the other guy in the car coerced her into snorting the cocaine. And the girlfriend didn’t know this adult man was picking up this random teenage girl and selling her drugs, which ended up killing her? And apparently the police didn’t pick up so they just left the girl there alone and dying? The whole story sounds fishy. I think about this girl often. I’m 16, around the same age. I feel so bad for her. I really do think the driver and “dealer” if there was one coerced her into taking the drugs.

In all of that the Girlfriend's story sounds pretty credible.
If not for her statements his story wouldn't sound as sketchy as it did.
The sketchyness of this story is one thing, and the other is that law at that point was pretty much made to leave as many vulnerable victims for dead as possible, cause calling for help meant that the caller (if identified) would get in trouble for their own possible involvement with drugs. So if one drug user whitnessed another person overdosing, fleeing the scene without notifying anyone was pretty much the safest course of action - cause otherwise there was high risk of being prosecuted for usage, possession of some other involvement and the risk of being accused by dealers or gangs for snitching, while on the other hand having "possibility" that person may be okay eventually anyway, or die even with paramedics showing up.
In the same time, in a scenario like this guy was pretty much covered, cause in the story she was still alive while he dumped her on the parking lot, and he wasn't the one who took, offered or sold drugs, just happened to knew a dealer and met a girl who was already high on coke and eager to take more. Crazy and scary.

Did the driver or supposed dealer ever get arrested for giving her the cocaine?

I don't know more than this thread provides, but doesn't look like it.
Even if he did, it would be for simply dealing drugs, cause without ID no way to tell for sure if Tempe Girl was a minor of not. If LE knew for sure that she was certainly underage, they'd have an excuse to take more action, with just a suspicion that she likely was they sadly have not.

IMO IMO, all IMO.

 

[beubeubeu]

I don't even think that they were in a car! I'm completely with you on the story being fabricated and it sounds like it is all a convenient lie. The way he tells it means he can't be charged with anything.

I was thinking about this before and I wonder if the man and his gf actually knew her. I do not think the gf was there when this happened. As far as I recall she was very concerned about her items being found and wanted to confront him.

It makes me furious because had someone called emergency services right away maybe the outcome would have been completely different. But there is a reason why they didn't place her outside nearby and do that. I think he knew her. Remember he told this story after he knew that she had passed away.

A lot of people thought that this took place in the man's apartment (as the doors were wide open when they returned, he wouldn't let his gf in and they stayed elsewhere that night). The hitchhiker bit IMO was made up to cover himself. He conveniently didn't know her name, etc.

I think that it is likely that he knew her - maybe a neighbour, living in the same place, family friend, acquaintance somehow.

Just my opinion.

She had to be in the car at some point, cause no other explanation for cd box lying near her.
Girlfriend allowed cops to search the car, and there were some soda cans collected, so possibly LE was able to confirm if she was drinking from one of these or not (if she did, then it'd increase the likelyness of her being in the car before the cocaine was given to her).

Looks like Girlfriend's whereabouts were possible to verify, and I believe that she was heavily pregnant at the time. And it didn't look like she was allowed to be involved in her boyfriends activities. I also suspected that he may knew exactly who Tempe Girl was.
Maybe not so much the Girlfiend, cause she seems to have sort of stable life - job, kids, regular visits with family members who helped her with kids while she was at work, she had her own place, legally owned both cars... with him there is just very vague description of him hanging out somewhere in Phoenix-Tempe area during the day, getting random lifts and leaving car to family members at random times. Sounds sketchy as hell, who does that? Being illegally in US doesn't explain that behaviour.

 

[ex-stat]

Sorry - I meant when it happened and I should have specified. I mean re the description of the incident, driving around, back and forth, all of these visits to convenience stores (which may have happened earlier in the day but I believe the sad event took place in the apartment). Yes, she was transported from the apartment with the doors open to the place that she was found.

I agree that he sounds sketchy.

 

[beubeubeu]

Just a thought but the story goes that guy told his drug dealing buddy to call help for her...

And not sure why he expected him to be obedient, cause like... come on, why would ANY drug dealer do that?!
I don't mean calling for an ambulance. Cause CALLING, just calling - okay, possible, if such person still has some decency could do that, more even - they WOULD do that.
But in this story that guy provided, it's not like they agreed to do that, it's not like this drug dealer offered to do that, it's not like the guy left completely sure that drug dealer will call for help. He specifically states that HE TOLD HIM TO CALL 911 FOR HER and that sort of order went smooth.
What the hell? Isn't that kinda odd?

... that call sounded kinda like someone completely stoned or high on whatever tried to call 911 but forgot why.
What kind of drug dealer would go completely ... just right after dumping a body, very near that location, while agreeing on staying alone on store's parking lot, without vehicle and without a driver?
This is as bizarre as everything else in this story. Makes me suspect that the caller wasn't drug dealer at all, just maybe some user caught on the street and paid 5$ to do such call... or something.

 

[EmiliaRT007]

Sorry - I meant when it happened and I should have specified. I mean re the description of the incident, driving around, back and forth, all of these visits to convenience stores (which may have happened earlier in the day but I believe the sad event took place in the apartment). Yes, she was transported from the apartment with the doors open to the place that she was found.

I agree that he sounds sketchy.

He’s super sketchy IMHO. Also, how did the driver know the girl was a Spanish speaker? I heard from some sources that he started talking to her. So suspicious. No doubt in my mind that this is his fault.

 

[EmiliaRT007]

They do look alike. Sadly Florinda got ruled out. I thought it was her initially.

Florinda and this Jane Doe look a lot alike to me. Does it appear to you that the right nostril (facing the camera) is flatter on both Jane Doe and Florinda?

 

[beubeubeu]

One thing I'm not really confident about, but I just recently heard it and immediately thought about this case.
So allegedly (I'd be grateful if anyone could correct me on that if it's not accurate) cocaine goes through system pretty quick and does not accumulate over time.
I was attending drug awareness course, and brought up this guy's story to the person working in rehab. And the person said that if over an hour passed since previous consumption with no shock, then taking "just a little" won't work together with the amount taken earlier.
He essentially called BS twice - once on a claim of an occasionally using person going to look for the next dose while still being under strong influence of cocaine taken (allegedly this alone is unlikely), and if the person is really so into cocaine addiction that they need to take more and more so quickly, then they won't take "just a little", they'll take a lot. And second, on this "little amount" causing overdose: possible, not likely, while it's very likely that the whitness in the scenario is lying about the amount of cocaine.

 

[EmiliaRT007]

One thing I'm not really confident about, but I just recently heard it and immediately thought about this case.
So allegedly (I'd be grateful if anyone could correct me on that if it's not accurate) cocaine goes through system pretty quick and does not accumulate over time.
I was attending drug awareness course, and brought up this guy's story to the person working in rehab. And the person said that if over an hour passed since previous consumption with no shock, then taking "just a little" won't work together with the amount taken earlier.
He essentially called BS twice - once on a claim of an occasionally using person going to look for the next dose while still being under strong influence of cocaine taken (allegedly this alone is unlikely), and if the person is really so into cocaine addiction that they need to take more and more so quickly, then they won't take "just a little", they'll take a lot. And second, on this "little amount" causing overdose: possible, not likely, while it's very likely that the whitness in the scenario is lying about the amount of cocaine.

I believe that this girl was NOT a drug addict. I think this driver dude seems full o’ bull. If she really took just a little and it caused her to have THAT reaction I don’t think she’s even let a line of coke near her nose at any point in her life. I think this drug dealer doesn’t exist personally and he just wanted to make up a story so he wouldn’t get in trouble for killing a teenage girl with cocaine.

All around driver seems so damn fishy.