AZ AZ - Tempe, HispFem, UP1987, 15-19, hitchhiking, overdose, Apr'02

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Seeker2022 said:
I do think the DLC are sometimes wrong but for a reason. The guilty party doesn't usually want to turn it in right away until they have made their plan, on how to "cover" things up. Alot of cases I have read about or know about, only reported someone missing, with a plan, as someone was inquiring about them.... Perfect example: The Wests.
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Agreed. I think there's a lot more to Ramona's case than we are privy to.
 
Horsegirl2745 said:
Ii have done a lot of research on Tempe Girl and have never seen anything about her pants being undone and her breast exposed. I think this is inaccurate. There were no charges filed against the driver because there was no evidence of foul play.
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The information about the state of her clothing comes from a police report shared earlier in the thread.
fmw63 said:
AT 0730 HRS I WAS BRIEFED ON THE INVESTIGATION BY DET SGT Pxxxxx. HE STATED THAT ON 4-27-02 AT APPROX 0540 HRS A WORKER, AT ONE OF THE INDUSTRIAL BUSINESSES, LOCATED THE VICTIM BEHIND THE GOLF STORE. SGT Pxxxxxx ADVISED THAT THE WITNESS WAS BEING INTERVIEWED BY DET Kxxxx. SGT Pxxxxxxx SAID THAT THE WITNESS APPROACHED THE VICTIM (APPROX 3 FEET AWAY) AND FELT THAT SHE WAS DECEASED. BASED ON THAT HE CALLED 911. Pxxxxxxx FURTHER ADVISED THAT THE WITNESS HAD+LEFT WORK ON 4-26-02 AT APPROX 1830 HRS. AT THAT TIME THERE WAS ONE OTHER WORKER STILL PRESENT IN THE SHOPPING CENTER. THE WITNESS ADVISED THAT THEY LEFT THE AREA. NO OTHER PEOPLE OR VEHICLES WERE PRESENT AT THAT TIME. AT 0740 HRS I APPROACHED THE VICTIM FROM THE NORTH (INDUSTRIAL AREA). I OBSERVED THAT THE VICTIM'S CLOTHING WAS IN DISARRAY. THE RED SHIRT WAS A HALTER TUBE TOP STYLE. THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE SHIRT WAS DISPLACED EXPOSING THE RIGHT BREAST. THE VICTIM'S BLUE JEANS WERE SECURED VIA A ZIPPER ON HER LEFT SIDE, HOWEVER THE JEANS WERE PULLED DOWN SEVERAL INCHES FROM THE WAIST. THE CONDITION OF THE JEANS CAUSED THE VICTIM'S PANTIES TO BE EXPOSED. THE PANTIES WERE DARK BLUE COLOR.
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AguaFlorida2001 said:
That is not a professional enhancement though. I wouldn't really call that a clear view of Ramona.
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If you are so confident this might be a match why ask feedback in the first place. IMO it's not her because of Ramona's face shape, that can be seen even in the blurred picture of her, but if you have doubts about my opinion, go ahead and submit her.
 
I highely doubt that this could be a match. Ramona's hair seems to be of those who have slight tendency to curl, possibly just wave a bit while our girl on the actual picture seems to have them totally straight. On her picture I fail to see the slightest wave, instead they just spill all around, exactly like totally straight hair tend to do.

Face shape can be tricky in this case cause all pictures and most drawings of Tempe Girl are relying on how her face looked like while slightly tilted back. That makes people's faces look more triangular than they really are, may also affect the cheeks and may them look bit more prominent than they are.
 
Horsegirl2745 said:
Ii have done a lot of research on Tempe Girl and have never seen anything about her pants being undone and her breast exposed. I think this is inaccurate. There were no charges filed against the driver because there was no evidence of foul play.
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This is accurate, and not only that but there was also admition that he unbuttoned her pants in attempt to "help her breathe".
The type of top that she was wearing is pretty tricky to keep on - everything is mostly fine as long as woman/girl can correct it's placement and adjust it, make sure that's in place, but while getting unconscious, I can see how it would be terribly easy to slide and expose breasts.

I personally did not believe for a second that it was anything but attempted sexual assault after forcing vulnerable girl to take drugs much stronger that she could take - interrupted by her going into shock and eventually dying.
BUT it's certainly possible, that it went out exactly as he said. It's awfully unlikely, but possible. That would make him irresponsible, disgusting human being and an idiot - neither of which is itself a crime. Also not nearly enough to fill any charges against him.
At the end of a day it doesn't matter what the investigator knows, is sure of or can reasonably deduce, but what could be actually proven. With what they had here, they could not prove anything sadly.

IF there was a whitness who would say: oh no, that's not how it happened, I saw him forcing those drugs on her and attempting to rape her - it would be a different story.
IF there was a family who would report her missing and claim: oh no, no way, we did not kicked her out of the house, that's a lie! She had no history of drug use that we know of! We believe that she was hitchhiking home! or We saw her getting kidnapped! - it would be a different story.
IF it was known for sure that she was a minor, it would be a different story.

But what we have is still no identity and there was nothing to challenge his testimony, so it is how it is.
 
beubeubeu said:
This is accurate, and not only that but there was also admition that he unbuttoned her pants in attempt to "help her breathe".
The type of top that she was wearing is pretty tricky to keep on - everything is mostly fine as long as woman/girl can correct it's placement and adjust it, make sure that's in place, but while getting unconscious, I can see how it would be terribly easy to slide and expose breasts.

I personally did not believe for a second that it was anything but attempted sexual assault after forcing vulnerable girl to take drugs much stronger that she could take - interrupted by her going into shock and eventually dying.
BUT it's certainly possible, that it went out exactly as he said. It's awfully unlikely, but possible. That would make him irresponsible, disgusting human being and an idiot - neither of which is itself a crime. Also not nearly enough to fill any charges against him.
At the end of a day it doesn't matter what the investigator knows, is sure of or can reasonably deduce, but what could be actually proven. With what they had here, they could not prove anything sadly.

IF there was a whitness who would say: oh no, that's not how it happened, I saw him forcing those drugs on her and attempting to rape her - it would be a different story.
IF there was a family who would report her missing and claim: oh no, no way, we did not kicked her out of the house, that's a lie! She had no history of drug use that we know of! We believe that she was hitchhiking home! or We saw her getting kidnapped! - it would be a different story.
IF it was known for sure that she was a minor, it would be a different story.

But what we have is still no identity and there was nothing to challenge his testimony, so it is how it is.
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Not to mention, there was reported in the police report to be a type of fluid possibly resembling semen on her clothing, I believe her pants? I didn't realize this until somebody brought it up, but after reading the posts here, I do believe it was at least attempted sexual assault. I also don't think he would have had to necessarily force her to take the cocaine, but may have attempted a sexual assault as a "spur of the moment" thing while she was overdosing and dying, rather than helping her. Just typing that out makes me feel SICK to my very stomach, but unfortunately, that is looking like a likely scenario IMO. Sexual predators look for vulnerable victims. She would be very vulnerable, as a young female hitchhiker with drug addictions.

Whatever the case may be, his story is incredibly sketchy IMO.
 
Springrain said:
I also don't think he would have had to necessarily force her to take the cocaine, but may have attempted a sexual assault as a "spur of the moment" thing while she was overdosing and dying, rather than helping her.
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Well, isn't his story the only reason why we're assumming that she had any drug past? Was it ever stated that she was tested and had traces of different types of substances used sometime prior to her death? Cause if not...

Drug users are taking drugs dozens, hundreds of times without OD. Some never OD. And those who do are at highest risk of it while they're:
a) just starting and have no idea of how much they can take, which causes them to take dose that's too high,
b) relapsing after a period of time that made their tollerance lower than they used to have,
c) fed drugs by someone who doesn't care if they'll die.

According to his story of her story it wasn't "a" or "b". So could be unfortunate accident that randomly happened in a presence of predatory individual who had nothing to do with it, or - more likely - "c".

Springrain said:
but may have attempted a sexual assault as a "spur of the moment" thing while she was overdosing and dying, rather than helping her.
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Well, World is full of rapists but only serial killer type would figure that dying child is arousing and jump on the chance to rape her then. Also possible, but not the most likely scenario IMO.

Much more likely would be: he met a girl and figured that feeding her drugs will be a great opportunity to rape her, likely to rape her with a friend. But they accidentally gave her too much, she started dying, so they never finished with rape, and cause of that felt confident enough to come up with this bs explanation after they freaked out and left her to die.

The claim that she had previous drug history and was willingly taking it is his story and it's covering his stinky *ss. IMO it's as believeable as the part with trying to take off her pants to help her breathe.
It's nothing, but excuse for his involvement and actions.

It was his drug connections that were used to purchase drugs.
It was his claims that teenage girl who just got kicked out of her house, had enough money to buy COCAINE from all the drugs, and did just that with his help.
His claims that he just casually drove to the drug dealer, who felt like jumping into his car, while he just decided to spend some time giving this random girl which he just met and decided to drive around as she wished.

There is nothing in his story that sounds like it makes sense as far as common sense goes.
All little details, all elements are bizarre.
And the only thing that makes it fit into a story is HIS claim that she was a drug addict.
His whole story, his whole "I did nothing criminal here, just got scared" relies on this claim.

At the point where he realised that LE is at the point where they can connect him to her death by his gf's cd's left at the scene, he decided to "come clear" and claim that:
- girl was hitchhiking, willingly wanted to get into his car - he was just trying to help!
- girl was interested in buying drugs - it wasn't him who brought that up!
- she purchased the drugs, with her own money - not his fault!
- she took the drugs alone - he wasn't!
- any DNA from his drug dealing friend found on her - just cause he offered him a lift too! they were in the backseat together, while SHE was taking drugs!
- his DNA on her - just cause she was trying to help her!
- her unbuttoned pants - he was trying to help her breathe! She was suffocating, he just tried to take her pants off to help her breathe!
- they left her there - just cause they got scared!
- she died - cause she was a drug addict!

What is in there exactly to make it look likely that she willingly took cocaine?

Cause it's def not the fact that she OD'd.

Was this guy so well connected in drug business that he had access to the clearest, strongest cocaine out there despite of not even buying it?
But in the same time his drug dealing friend was just not good with business and decided to waste such high quality coke on non-local homeless girl with low chance of getting her as longtime buyer?
Or maybe nothing unusual about the cocaine, it was just that homeless girl decided to spend money on cocaine and buy it for the first time in her life to celebrate meeting this dude and OD'd accidentally, with excitement?

The risk of OD is there always, pretty much every time but it gets so much higher with taking something as strong as cocaine for the first time or having it served by someone who want's you to get unconscious but here it magically doesn't matter or even decreases, cause HE claimed that she was an addict and took it by her own will it becomes believeable?
Every part of his statement should be taken with a barrel of salt, not just the most ridiculous parts of it.
 
Leaving pants behind.
We have a guy who meets an underage hitchhiker, she claims to be homeless. So he drives her around, complies and offers help while asking for assistance with buying cocaine. Drug dealer jumps in for a ride too. Girl is trying to smoke the coke but her body comes into shock pretty much immediately.

Many things are possible in this world and I'll repeat once more that it is possible that he acted irresponsibly and stupid while having no ill intentions.
My point isn't to accuse him like I know for sure what happened cause it'd be unfair, but in the same time it makes me sick.
He deserves benefit of a doubt, he deserves to be treated as innocent until proven guilty BUT his sketchy story should not be taken as a gospel. Every detail about her that comes from him, or his sketchy friend should be taken and presented as it is: highely suspicious, highely uncertain, it's all "allegedly".

What's more probable:

A) That homeless teen, disowned by family has enough money on her to buy cocaine,
B) Or that she doesn't

A) That teenage girl jumps into a stranger's car, casually asks him if he knows where to get drugs and happily goes there with him
B) That guy picks up a hitchhiker and (to the very least) offers to buy drugs himself or even tricks her with some excuse on why he needs to visit that person

A) That girl who never used cocaine before wants to try that with a stranger, from source totally unknown to her
B) That girl ends up with this kind of situation where it's possible or forced on her and complies or is forced to comply

A) That girl who used cocaine before, OD's while taking it with stranger, from other source than she was used to
B) That girl who never used cocaine before OD's right after she took it/was fed with it

A) That drug dealer just coincidentally decides to jump into a car with customer and teenage girl, cause he doesn't have access to his own car or for purpose of socialising with those two nice looking people
B) That drug dealer jumps into customer's car with hope or promise that he'll get a chance to rape her, have sex with her or get sex as payment for the cocaine he just gave her

A) That guy seriously freaks out so much seeing a girl OD that not having any better ideas in mind he decided to unbutton her pants to "help her breathe"
B) That he comes up with such story to explain all possible traces of his DNA on her, at the point when LE was one step from connecting him to her, well aware that if they'll figure that out, they won't be nearly as willing to accept such idiotic explanations

A's are possible, but unlikely.
B's are probable, and highely likely.

There is at least few possible reasons why he lied in such way and I can think of at least three that would not make him a monster but why buy his story if it doesn't even sound probable?
Not one part of it sounds probable.
Well, maybe apart from something as basic as "she OD'd, and since we all know that most people who OD are drug addicts then it makes sense to assume that she was also an addict".
 
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All in my opinion: The man is a monster. What kind of person sees a young hitchhiker and instead of calling police to help her, or at least just saying he doesn't have time to give her a ride, instead helps her get drugs? And doesn't help when she overdoses? I don't understand anyone giving him the benefit of the doubt, as none of that is normal nor understandable.

Ugh, if she can't get the justice she deserves, at least may she somehow be identified and finally "go home."
 
I feel like part of the reason that this case is often overlooked in the true crime community is because of the societal expectation/idea in the U.S. that Latina girls grow up faster, or are expected to be less tame than everybody else. Because she was probably undocumented, and because she was of Latina descent, most people will probably write her off as just another stereotype (uncouth, substance user, runaway teen etc.) and her case goes overlooked.

I think that's part of why this case tugs on my heartstrings. I am Latino, and I was once a "troubled youth", when all I needed was a hug and a therapist. Whatever happened here, I feel bad for this poor girl and I just desperately want her to be identified and have some justice brought to the situation.
 
AguaFlorida2001 said:
I feel like part of the reason that this case is often overlooked in the true crime community is because of the societal expectation/idea in the U.S. that Latina girls grow up faster, or are expected to be less tame than everybody else. Because she was probably undocumented, and because she was of Latina descent, most people will probably write her off as just another stereotype (uncouth, substance user, runaway teen etc.) and her case goes overlooked.

I think that's part of why this case tugs on my heartstrings. I am Latino, and I was once a "troubled youth", when all I needed was a hug and a therapist. Whatever happened here, I feel bad for this poor girl and I just desperately want her to be identified and have some justice brought to the situation.
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May be just my experience but few years ago I had couple of months that I spend 10-12 hours a day working with youtube crime channels constantly in the background. I was barely looking at the screen but remembered young girl in red top that looked like bikini. Something briefly got my attention cause I googled her and read few articles but quickly lose it cause it didn't appear like there is much to think about here.

I had one WTH moment cause it was repeated in some of thouse sources... something to the accord that oh, investigators believe that she wasn't local so her picture was sent into many schools in Arizona in hope that someone will recognize her.
Which would make sense the other way around: no leads after asking for school's help and then coming into conclusion that she was most likely not a local.

Obviously, I wasn't paying lot of attention and I was not highely focused on anything there, but what I got from it was that it was "just" an overdose, and the only reason why she got dumped was that those guys who were with her got scared.
It only made sense to me this way: that those "guys" were as lost as she was and also high - cause there was repetative sympathy towards those poor scared guys who didn't knew better and oh, what an unfortunate circumstances.
I made - what then seemed like logical - assumptions that they knew each other.
That those "guys" were more or less her age.
That the only reason why she's unidentified is cause they didn't knew her real name - and that possibility of her being underage is just like showed up only after autopsy, just as not that likely but still a possibility.

In portraits, at least for me she looks like she could be a teenager as well as over 20.

Then I saw her actual post mortem picture and OMG, she was a child!
Then I started digging more, and OMG WHAT?! - that guy just picked her up hitchhiking and all that info comes just from him, not from number of local sources that interacted with her before.
That his story sounds insane and that the whole narrative is insane.
I was shocked when I realised that I heard about her before and that "unbuttonning pants to help her breathe" is the same case.

What you say about the social expectations about Latino girls is sadly true in general, but prejudice is mostly a thing of convenience meant to justify not caring about someone. There is no shortage of people in true crime community that care a lot, but still, the main focus in on the mystery. General population in US may be less interested in suspicious death of Latino girl than they would be about suspicious death of White girl, but in true crime community it's more about mystery and hope to find answers. What is presented as there is not much of a mystery and not much of a way to find answers doesn't get much attention.

And her case was IMO and still is presented as there is not much to it, like it's pretty much "as solved as anyone could reasonably expect it to be".
 
BTW, I wouldn't put much into assumption that she wasn't local, legal and from Arizona.
Many, many cases where "all" schools/churches/bars/hospitals/dentists in the area were asked if a person from the picture or fitting the description ever attended, worked, was a patient - no leads, no tracks, nothing. Must not be a local then. Few years or decades later, DNA or right tip given and oh... he/she was a local but it got overlooked.

Maybe she was just a teenager heading for a concert.

Guy claimed that they spoke Spanish. But did she started speaking Spanish right away? Would she still speak Spanish if he would respond in English?

He supposedly claimed that at first she wanted to buy tickets for some music concert but with whatever reason it's not added everywhere what band that was

WHAT BAND THAT WAS?!

It surely could be helpful.
Could be not her first time, she could be known to other fans, especially if it wasn't a "big" band.
Could be much better lead than conntacting "all" schools in Arizona.
If it was a "big" band with no shows in nearby states it could be a great indicator from where she came from.
How much time was left before the concert? Hours? Days? Who had a show on that day?
Where she wanted to buy those tickets? In Tempe? Or in Phoenix? He claimed that he knew the location. Never asked about the band? Seriously?
Was there any music concert there with significant amount of not-local attendees? Groups coming from out of a state? With fanclubs following them?

Why it seems like it's just not there? Or why it's not there?

And where is her name? Even if it would be fake, where is it?
Come on. That guy claims that she told him quite a few details about herself. But no name?
It makes even less sense with assumption that she could speak only Spanish. So she met this nice guy and he's driving her around, they're talking, he speaks Spanish, she feels so comfy that she want's to buy cocaine and get high in his company but DOESNT GIVE HIM EVEN A FAKE NAME?! He doesn't ask? Seriously? And in same time it's not made into a big deal that she refused to give him any?
How this is making any sense to anyone?
How?
 
And where are her belongings?
She had just that top and jeans, one wedge heels, fingernails painted light/faded purple, hair band on her wrist.
Any pockets? Any money left in those pockets? No purse? No backpack? No hoodie for the night?

Bold outfit choice for a homeless addict with enough money on her to go for cocaine on a whim.
Or does it sound more like a girl heading to a concert?

Btw. I just found that Prince had a concert in Arizona on 26'th of April at the Dodge Theatre.

North 32 is where he claims that "whitness" picked her up.
400 West - what was then known as the Dodge Theatre.
Black arrow - body dumped.

1663984468437.png

Tickets from 50-125$, and on the day of concert probably much more than 50$ for the cheapest ones.

If it wasn't Prince concert, who's concert it was?
And if it was Prince's concert, then why Prince fans from (at least) Arizona weren't targeted with her picture?
Maybe it wasn't her first?
Maybe she was kinda expected to show up by someone who didn't knew her well enough to be alarmed by the fact that she haven't made it?
Maybe she was in some sort of fanclub? I think that he had quite significant amount of well organised fans even before internet got widely available.

If she would be local, she would most likely buy those tickets before 26th (unless price wasn't going up on the day of the show and there was not that high of a risk that they'll be sold out). I'd guess that she was from few hours ride from Phoenix.

1663985721462.png

So I would rule out California, cause Hollywood would be closer... and assume that she came from somewhere in the square.
1663985933857.png
And my best guess would be New Mexico, not Arizona. And if Arizona, then north part of the state, not exactly Phoenix area.

That's tour map from 15-28th June 2001
1663987197761.png

14th April - 6th May 2001

1663987292700.png
7 Nov - 9 Dec 2000

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Earlier tours in 1998 - too early for her.
2000 till 26th of April 2002 no shows in New Mexico or Arizona
And that's only his words that she changed her mind and wanted to spend ALL her money on cocaine and give up on tickets.
Also TICKETS? Not a ticket but ticketS?
And what kind of not-local teenage girl on a mission to get tickets for a concert would just casually drop her chance to get them switching it for a coke with random guy?
Especially if it was someone like Prince, not someone you could see every other month.
Wouldn't even a hardcore drug addict on hunger at least had pretty hard time over making such a choice?

Seriously, he could say that she was chased by Yeti before he picked her up and that aliens abducted him just as he was going to call for help and his story would not make less sense for me like that.
 

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