AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #5

[southcitymom]

......Anyone can also see the investigation was not done properly... don't need any inside knowlege for that... giant eyeroll! No one said anything about huge conspiracy... only a poor job at investigating, and an underhanded prosecution team.....

respectfully snipped

DG,

Even if you believe that LE AND the Pros AND the Judge are all okay with framing an innocent child for a double homicide for whatever reason (covering their bums, stupidity, being evil...whatever), don't you think this child's attorneys and family would be howling to the moon if they didn't believe he pulled the trigger?

I mean, I have had some contact with members of another board that really support this child just like I really support this child (heck, I even signed a letter to the judge concerning him,) and some of the folks at that board seem to have some contact with the family. And it seems like the family knows what this child did is way out of the norm and has some insight into the reasons he had for snapping and killing and wants him to have help and consequences. Again - that's just my impression of things - nowhere is their an indication that the family believes he did NOT do this.

How do you work that into your thoughts about this case?

 

[dgfred]

respectfully snipped

DG,

Even if you believe that LE AND the Pros AND the Judge are all okay with framing an innocent child for a double homicide for whatever reason (covering their bums, stupidity, being evil...whatever), don't you think this child's attorneys and family would be howling to the moon if they didn't believe he pulled the trigger?

I mean, I have had some contact with members of another board that really support this child just like I really support this child (heck, I even signed a letter to the judge concerning him,) and some of the folks at that board seem to have some contact with the family. And it seems like the family knows what this child did is way out of the norm and has some insight into the reasons he had for snapping and killing and wants him to have help and consequences. Again - that's just my impression of things - nowhere is their an indication that the family believes he did NOT do this.

How do you work that into your thoughts about this case?

Well when the prosecution and judge offer a plea deal with the assurance to the child that there will be NO jail time, then turn around to say the jail time is the only way they see to help the child... I just don't agree with it and think it is underhanded imo. LE's lack of investigation, or a proper one at least has left the kid vulnerable to all sorts of speculation and hate for why this happened (or what really happened).

I promise you, I am in contact with some very close to the boy and his mom too and there is only so much she can do at the moment. Although I do not agree with her not 'howling to the moon' to all available outlets... she has her reasons and I have no say/pull in the matter. Since jail seems to be the objective now of the prosecution, you will probably see/hear some howling in the very near future.
I myself am not exactly sure if the boy is the sole shooter or not, but if he was... then there has to be some major reason why this happened. He did not just snap imo, and he seems to those non-family members that are close to him that he is just a normal kid in almost every way. Also the family and the mom don't REALLY know exactly what happened that tragic day... as they can only go by what has been released (highly conflicting) so far and what the boy has actually told them. As you can imagine, this is a touchy subject... and no one knows how if effects the boy to keep saying what he remembers or what happened. Also the boy has been in alot of court hearings, interviews with docs, LE interrogations, and just hearing what those around him said about the situation and what did/could of happened...
in my honest opinion he might not even remember (shock, fear, etc) what exactly happened or could have been threatened not to reveal the truth, or could be lying. NOBODY KNOWS for sure.
How would the mom or family know for sure what is the actual truth in your opinion, or us for that matter?

My basic problem with the entire case is this: The 'interrogation' by LE without a family member/lawyer present with leading questions based on lying to the child about evidence. Then RELEASING the video to the public... this NEVER happens before trial right???!!!!
The poor investigation with conflicting (between LE and witnesses) witness
statements. Releasing the crime scene waaaaayyy too early to people that could have possibly been involved in some way. Releasing tidbits of evidence that vaguely point to the boy (but still ambiguous), but not releasing anything else or possible motives for why this might have happened. Offering a plea deal to no jail... then backing out of the proposed deal by saying the only way for the child to get treatment may be in jail. Prosecution filing false accusations (without verification) trying to get the child put back into detention. I don't know if LE/prosecution even know for sure whether he is innocent or not... just that they had to do something.
The endless delays (the boy is in limbo this entire time) causing him to miss school (no credit for detention school) and not allowing him to try to be a 'normal' boy (can't go in public places). How everyone (lawyers, judge, his lawyers) say on one hand that all they are concerned with is the welfare of the child, but on the other hand doing absolutely NOTHING to actually help... in fact just the opposite. I believe that if the prosecution/judge try to force the boy into jail, there will be a trial and it will be a doosey. With how the investigation started, imo the boy will have a pretty good chance in court.
But even after all this, I have no idea what actually happened that day... only what has happened since to the boy as far as his rights and improper treatment. It just gets to me when 'internet psychologist' post what is wrong with the boy, that he is a twisted psychopathic killer... when in reality they know exactly squat. But I guess that is what a forum is for, but it will not stop me from opposing a view that I think is wrong or off-base.

 

[sdn8tv]

and you base this on?

Base what on what?
The records have not been released for general viewing?

 

[southcitymom]

Well when the prosecution and judge offer a plea deal with the assurance to the child that there will be NO jail time, then turn around to say the jail time is the only way they see to help the child... I just don't agree with it and think it is underhanded imo. LE's lack of investigation, or a proper one at least has left the kid vulnerable to all sorts of speculation and hate for why this happened (or what really happened).

I promise you, I am in contact with some very close to the boy and his mom too and there is only so much she can do at the moment. Although I do not agree with her not 'howling to the moon' to all available outlets... she has her reasons and I have no say/pull in the matter. Since jail seems to be the objective now of the prosecution, you will probably see/hear some howling in the very near future.
I myself am not exactly sure if the boy is the sole shooter or not, but if he was... then there has to be some major reason why this happened. He did not just snap imo, and he seems to those non-family members that are close to him that he is just a normal kid in almost every way. Also the family and the mom don't REALLY know exactly what happened that tragic day... as they can only go by what has been released (highly conflicting) so far and what the boy has actually told them. As you can imagine, this is a touchy subject... and no one knows how if effects the boy to keep saying what he remembers or what happened. Also the boy has been in alot of court hearings, interviews with docs, LE interrogations, and just hearing what those around him said about the situation and what did/could of happened...
in my honest opinion he might not even remember (shock, fear, etc) what exactly happened or could have been threatened not to reveal the truth, or could be lying. NOBODY KNOWS for sure.
How would the mom or family know for sure what is the actual truth in your opinion, or us for that matter?

My basic problem with the entire case is this: The 'interrogation' by LE without a family member/lawyer present with leading questions based on lying to the child about evidence. Then RELEASING the video to the public... this NEVER happens before trial right???!!!!
The poor investigation with conflicting (between LE and witnesses) witness
statements. Releasing the crime scene waaaaayyy too early to people that could have possibly been involved in some way. Releasing tidbits of evidence that vaguely point to the boy (but still ambiguous), but not releasing anything else or possible motives for why this might have happened. Offering a plea deal to no jail... then backing out of the proposed deal by saying the only way for the child to get treatment may be in jail. Prosecution filing false accusations (without verification) trying to get the child put back into detention. I don't know if LE/prosecution even know for sure whether he is innocent or not... just that they had to do something.
The endless delays (the boy is in limbo this entire time) causing him to miss school (no credit for detention school) and not allowing him to try to be a 'normal' boy (can't go in public places). How everyone (lawyers, judge, his lawyers) say on one hand that all they are concerned with is the welfare of the child, but on the other hand doing absolutely NOTHING to actually help... in fact just the opposite. I believe that if the prosecution/judge try to force the boy into jail, there will be a trial and it will be a doosey. With how the investigation started, imo the boy will have a pretty good chance in court.
But even after all this, I have no idea what actually happened that day... only what has happened since to the boy as far as his rights and improper treatment. It just gets to me when 'internet psychologist' post what is wrong with the boy, that he is a twisted psychopathic killer... when in reality they know exactly squat. But I guess that is what a forum is for, but it will not stop me from opposing a view that I think is wrong or off-base.

I appreciate your explaining your thought process.

We all know pretty much the same amount of squat about this case. While I might not agree with either stance, I am no more upset at an opinion that the boy is a psychopath than at the opinion that the boy is innocent and did not commit these murders.

 

[mysteriew]

BBM

Since you are saying this as a statement of fact would you kindly link to the information that confirms that he is not a kid with behavioral problems?

I find that highly doubtful since no mental health facility is wanting to treat this kid, even the local mental health department.

While some like to poo poo Whiting because he is the DA and this kid is the defendant, I do believe him when he said the issue is this boy does not have mental illness but it is a behavioral issues instead and that is why they are getting no where when trying to seek therapy for him.
As of now the only ones willing to see if there is some place this kid can go to be treated, whether it works or not is the AZ Corrections Department.

imo

Now see I have a real problem with that. Kids with behavior problems are treated in inpatient and outpatient facilities every day. And they have locked facilities for the more severe behavioral issues. They treat adults too for behavioral issues for that matter. Let's see, some common behavioral disorders that receive treatment are oppositional defiance disorders, anorexia, bulemia, conduct disorders, and many others are considered more behavioral than mental. But all fall under the mental health treatment guidelines.

So I call bull on his excuses. If he was going to make up an excuse he should have at least tried to come up with something more believable.

 

[mysteriew]

and you base this on?

I believe he/she bases that on my request to see the psych report that keeps being quoted here. I would love to read it, so if you would be so kind as to provide the link I would appreciate it.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Base what on what?
The records have not been released for general viewing?

You stated as fact:

"no they did not find that this boy was a psycho killer or that he has deep behavioral problems...quite the contrary!"


I want to know what you based your statement on.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Now see I have a real problem with that. Kids with behavior problems are treated in inpatient and outpatient facilities every day. And they have locked facilities for the more severe behavioral issues. They treat adults too for behavioral issues for that matter. Let's see, some common behavioral disorders that receive treatment are oppositional defiance disorders, anorexia, bulemia, conduct disorders, and many others are considered more behavioral than mental. But all fall under the mental health treatment guidelines.

So I call bull on his excuses. If he was going to make up an excuse he should have at least tried to come up with something more believable.

How do you explain that the boy's lawyer stipulated to the prosecutor's motion?

I don't believe it's unbelievable at all, that everyone involved recognises he needs intensive treatment.

It's perfectly understandable too the difficultly they are encountering trying to find him an appropriate placement and the funding for such.

 

[southcitymom]

If the child did this (and I believe he did), I have to accept that he has some deep psychological issues. Frankly, nothing else makes sense.

 

[mysteriew]

I appreciate your explaining your thought process.

We all know pretty much the same amount of squat about this case. While I might not agree with either stance, I am no more upset at an opinion that the boy is a psychopath than at the opinion that the boy is innocent and did not commit these murders.

I understand and appreciate your stance on it. I don't know if he committed the murders or not. Maybe he did. If so then I am all for punishment and treatment for the kid. But if he didn't, then he lost his father and had his life completely trashed..... but the murders were 'solved' quickly! I just don't consider that a fair trade. Since I do believe the investigation was flawed, then that is why I am so reluctant to throw the kid away.

 

[dgfred]

If the child did this (and I believe he did), I have to accept that he has some deep psychological issues. Frankly, nothing else makes sense.

So you think that he did shoot two men with a single shot rifle and this was because of 'deep psychological issues', not from any other cause? If you think it over, I believe there are several other possibilities that are entirely more likely.
My problem is that I have big doubts with how the 'investigation'
points to this happening... the planning/shooting with a single shot rifle/reloading and reshooting/repeating process on his dad all within probably 20 ft or so. He then would have had the nerve/savvy to call in a witness and do the same to him within 20 ft or so. He would then have to walk back up to his dad and shoot him in the head if he hadn't already, then repeat for the witness. I just can't for the life of me think that a 8yr old boy could pull this off in the time frame and scenario they have described. My other big doubts stem from the releasing of the video and the shoddy early investigation. My feeling is that if LE was so SURE they had the right 'guy', then why release the video and release tidbits of information that MIGHT point to the boy as the sole shooter. Usually when LE is so sure of the suspect's guilt, they do not want to hurt their case when it goes to trial by giving out information to the public... not this time. Then when the judge permits the boy to live with his mom, there must be some factors (unknown to me) that make him think that the boy is no longer a danger to himself... and would NOT hurt his mom.

So I understand your points also, I just don't agree with how you came to those points. Thanks for your interest.

 

[dgfred]

You stated as fact:

"no they did not find that this boy was a psycho killer or that he has deep behavioral problems...quite the contrary!"


I want to know what you based your statement on.

Uhhh, maybe she has talked to people that have actually seen the reports . See, I can use some common sense every now and then. :angel:

 

[southcitymom]

So you think that he did shoot two men with a single shot rifle and this was because of 'deep psychological issues', not from any other cause? If you think it over, I believe there are several other possibilities that are entirely more likely.
My problem is that I have big doubts with how the 'investigation'
points to this happening... the planning/shooting with a single shot rifle/reloading and reshooting/repeating process on his dad all within probably 20 ft or so. He then would have had the nerve/savvy to call in a witness and do the same to him within 20 ft or so. He would then have to walk back up to his dad and shoot him in the head if he hadn't already, then repeat for the witness. I just can't for the life of me think that a 8yr old boy could pull this off in the time frame and scenario they have described. My other big doubts stem from the releasing of the video and the shoddy early investigation. My feeling is that if LE was so SURE they had the right 'guy', then why release the video and release tidbits of information that MIGHT point to the boy as the sole shooter. Usually when LE is so sure of the suspect's guilt, they do not want to hurt their case when it goes to trial by giving out information to the public... not this time. Then when the judge permits the boy to live with his mom, there must be some factors (unknown to me) that make him think that the boy is no longer a danger to himself... and would NOT hurt his mom.

So I understand your points also, I just don't agree with how you came to those points. Thanks for your interest.

Yes, psychological issues. Even if abuse was present, it is exceedingly rare for even an 8-year-old abused child to kill two adults (outside the scope of cinema). Rare enough that, yes, there are some obvious psychological issues and I doubt they are merely surface ones.

Does this mean I think the child is a sociopath? - it does not. I've read nothing to lead me to that conclusion.

For me, there are 3 general things that could have happened here:

1) the child didn't do it
2) the child did it and is is a sociopath
3) the child did it and has some deep issues which need to be addressed

I am not as appalled by LE's handling of this case as some others are. Was it a perfect investigation? No. As I said many posts ago, in all my years of following crime, I've never stumbled onto a case where everything was handled perfectly. In this case, I am even more empathetic to LE than usual because this is a one of a kind sort of case, IMO.

I do think the timetable as described makes sense, and I do not have a hard time believing the child could physically do what he did.

I agree with you that the Court allowing the child to stay with his Mother indicates a belief on the part of the Court that the child, however troubled by all of these events, is not a clear and present danger to his Mom, himself or others. That is one of the reasons I believe in #3 from the scenarios I listed above.

 

[southcitymom]

Uhhh, maybe she has talked to people that have actually seen the reports . See, I can use some common sense every now and then. :angel:

I am uncertain how it is common sense to assume things that have not been stated.

If sdn8tv has talked to people who have seen such reports, perhaps she could answer the question which has been asked fairly.

 

[OrdinaryLife]

I don't understand how any person can make a psych argument, fairly, when not one person is privy to any results of exams done. All of us can be armchair analysts, but that is all we are. In our chairs tossing out what our thoughts are. Period.

Taking a long step back from this case and regrouping for myself, I have come to this part of the case. It was screwed up from the very beginning. LE, lawyers, guardian for the child, etc. This case is a mess that the town of St. John wants to go away. On every possible level, imho. I will not go where some strongly, to the point of disturbing, continue to go. Show me where this case has been handled, from the very beginning that we have knowledge of, fairly, and without bias. As of now, it can't be done. As far as the tit for tat, not one of those "discussions" has convinced me to change my thoughts. If anything, it feels more like a witch hunt than finding truth.

So, convince me this child planned, with a conscience, these murders. LE and the DA haven't. I've read posts and the legal documents. What do you know that they or I don't?

imvho

 

[mostlylurking]

I am uncertain how it is common sense to assume things that have not been stated.

If sdn8tv has talked to people who have seen such reports, perhaps she could answer the question which has been asked fairly.

I don't think that sdn8tv has been back on this site since this interchange occurred.

I can state that she is privy to some information that is not available via a publicly linked site & is not something that could be posted in any fashion for public review or analysis. I can not state why or how I know this.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I don't think that sdn8tv has been back on this site since this interchange occurred.

I can state that she is privy to some information that is not available via a publicly linked site & is not something that could be posted in any fashion for public review or analysis. I can not state why or how I know this.

Then if that is the case and it isn't public information that can be verified sdn8tv shouldn't have mentioned it in the first place imo.

Doesn't that open the door to just anyone saying they have contacts and know personal information and can say whatever they want knowing they don't have to back any of it up with proof? :waitasec:

imo

 

[mostlylurking]

Then if that is the case and it isn't public information that can be verified sdn8tv shouldn't have mentioned it in the first place imo.

Doesn't that open the door to just anyone saying they have contacts and know personal information and can say whatever they want knowing they don't have to back any of it up with proof? :waitasec:

imo

I don't know what it opens to door to. I was just trying to be helpful without things getting all pi$$y.

The fact remains that the there is not a public release of any of the evaluations. There is no (eta: public) diagnosis that he is a sociopathic/psycopathic pre-planning murderer who should spend the rest of his life in jail, or that he is untreatable for anything that may or may not have happened. It is all OPINION and there is no basis in fact to be referring to this CHILD in that fashion.

On a personal note, I have become emotionally and personally involved in this case. I do not think this child has been treated fairly by the legal system. His civil rights have been violated from day 1 -- if Judge Roca thought that anything he had seen indicated continued danger, I do not believe that he would have released this CHILD on furlough with his mother and his PATERNAL grandmother. This case should have had an immediate change of venue. There is NO WAY that anyone in that town could ever allow their own bias -- either for or against this CHILD -- to not interfere with how he could/should be handled.

I think I best go back to lurking -- my blood pressure stays in check that way.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I don't understand how any person can make a psych argument, fairly, when not one person is privy to any results of exams done. All of us can be armchair analysts, but that is all we are. In our chairs tossing out what our thoughts are. Period.

Taking a long step back from this case and regrouping for myself, I have come to this part of the case. It was screwed up from the very beginning. LE, lawyers, guardian for the child, etc. This case is a mess that the town of St. John wants to go away. On every possible level, imho. I will not go where some strongly, to the point of disturbing, continue to go. Show me where this case has been handled, from the very beginning that we have knowledge of, fairly, and without bias. As of now, it can't be done. As far as the tit for tat, not one of those "discussions" has convinced me to change my thoughts. If anything, it feels more like a witch hunt than finding truth.

So, convince me this child planned, with a conscience, these murders. LE and the DA haven't. I've read posts and the legal documents. What do you know that they or I don't?

imvho

I base my conclusion on the evidence, the time line and watching that child lie his little face off. Watching him sitting there chatting it up without a care in the world spinning lie after lie...it wasn't until he was caught in those lies did he show any emotion. What I saw wasn't remorse, it was regret that he was caught. That's my opinion, and I believe he's a psychopath.

I don't believe this child HAS a conscience.

I don't believe the evaluation will state he's a psychopath, they can't make that diagnoses because he's a child. That doesn't change my opinion or prognoses of him. I believe the evaluation will make the diagnoses of Severe Conduct Disorder. That's as close as they can get to psychopath.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I don't know what it opens to door to. I was just trying to be helpful without things getting all pi$$y.

The fact remains that the there is not a public release of any of the evaluations. There is no (eta: public) diagnosis that he is a sociopathic/psycopathic pre-planning murderer who should spend the rest of his life in jail, or that he is untreatable for anything that may or may not have happened. It is all OPINION and there is no basis in fact to be referring to this CHILD in that fashion.

On a personal note, I have become emotionally and personally involved in this case. I do not think this child has been treated fairly by the legal system. His civil rights have been violated from day 1 -- if Judge Roca thought that anything he had seen indicated continued danger, I do not believe that he would have released this CHILD on furlough with his mother and his PATERNAL grandmother. This case should have had an immediate change of venue. There is NO WAY that anyone in that town could ever allow their own bias -- either for or against this CHILD -- to not interfere with how he could/should be handled.

I think I best go back to lurking -- my blood pressure stays in check that way.

I believe he was released to his mother because he was eight years old and didn't belong in what would basically be solitary confinement. He was too young to house with the other juveniles. Keeping him alone and separate would be cruel and usual. It was quite a quandary.

There was no appropriate place to put him until the evaluations were completed and a residential treatment facility was found that would accept him. He was a liability that no foster care agency or foster parent would want.

That's why he was placed with his mother with as many safeguards in place as possible to ensure his safety as well as societies. He is only 8 and not much danger without a gun and the element of surprise.

all in my opinion