Babcock Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #3

[Tealgrove]

Certainly a busy load. I am not denying that. However, it is inexcusable that with all the information Shawn Lerner talked to the police about, there was enough reason for them to begin an investigation immediately. And I truly believe that they just didn’t give a gosh darn because of Laura’s background, and that reeks of prejudice. Had she not been an escort, taken drugs and had mental health issues, I think things would have been handled properly. IMHO.

Just look at the immediacy with which the police began their investigation when Tim was reported missing. Exemplary. Laura deserved the same. All missing people with strong evidence such as Shawn gave them should be handled diligently from the beginning.

We are all human beings. The police shouldn’t judge then pick and choose who they are going to serve.

IMHO the police officers who handled the disappearance of Laura and the “suicide” of WM are indirectly responsible for Tim’s death and should be held accountable.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

There is no question that TPS dropped the ball and had the opportunity to stop DM in this tracks before others lost their lives at his hands. They have some explaining to do IMO.

Unfortunately, the lack of TPS involvement in LB's disappearance appears no different to the RCMP not investigating the missing women on Vancouver's east side (Robert Picton's victims). Add to that, LE's longstanding indifference to investigating the disappearance of indigenous women across our entire country.

The prevalence of LE's indifference to investigating missing women cases when vulnerable women at risk are involved is beyond shameful and rife within the Police Community nationwide. It is not exclusive to TPS.

Since when have vulnerable women become less than human and not worthy of our consideration and empathy? Since when do we throw away vulnerable women in our society? When did we lose our compassion? Aren't these the people that need protecting the most? Systemic discrimination has no place in our society. This is what happened to Laura and it makes me sick. We are better than this.

Not that LE could have saved her, but she deserved to be seen as a person and her disappearance taken seriously for what it was. To assume otherwise...well you know what they say when you ASSUME.

MOO

 

[andreww]

Certainly a busy load. I am not denying that. However, it is inexcusable that with all the information Shawn Lerner talked to the police about, there was enough reason for them to begin an investigation immediately. And I truly believe that they just didn’t give a gosh darn because of Laura’s background, and that reeks of prejudice. Had she not been an escort, taken drugs and had mental health issues, I think things would have been handled properly. IMHO.

Just look at the immediacy with which the police began their investigation when Tim was reported missing. Exemplary. Laura deserved the same. All missing people with strong evidence such as Shawn gave them should be handled diligently from the beginning.

We are all human beings. The police shouldn’t judge then pick and choose who they are going to serve.

IMHO the police officers who handled the disappearance of Laura and the “suicide” of WM are indirectly responsible for Tim’s death and should be held accountable.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Hindsight is 20/20, easy to be an armchair quarterback after the fact. Fact is that there the majority of the 3000 or so people that disappear every year probably have some interesting information on them as well. And quite simply, police know how this missing person game goes; of the 3000, 2980 will turn up on their own, 15 may have committed suicide, and the remaining five might really need to be searched for (missing children or people with dementia for instance). It is extremely rare that some is murdered when there is no prior threat (violent boyfriend, stalker, threats, organized crime, etc.). LB didn't fall in to any of these categories, she just happened to cross paths with a lunatic. Unfortunately you can't prevent people from being hit by lightning, which is essentially what happened to Laura.

Remember, detectives investigate crimes, and up until TB there was no real evidence that one had been committed. If you want to cast blame, look at all DM's friends who either knew or should have known what was going on the minute LB disappeared.

 

[andreww]

I'm going to check a few details. I had the impression DM might have gone to Waterloo with the spliff on his own. Here's one detail for instance where he is telling MS he has Pedo...and the msg from JV is noon so this is before noon:

Now seeing a message sent from Millard to Smich on July 4, 2012. "I have Pedo with me. Gone to waterloo. Back before 4pm. Left some dough on the coffee table in basement. Black tar negro!"
by Adam Carter November 9 at 10:48 AM

Now a message from Javier Villada to Millard on July 4 just after noon, asking if they're going to Waterloo today. Millard responds not today.[by Adam Carter November 9 at 10:49 AM /I]

Not sure what the crown is doing. It was quite clear that it was said in the opening statement that Millard, Smich and LBs phone left Maple Gate and headed for the Lakeshore. The witnesses seem to have testified to something different, that Millard went to Waterloo alone. In fact, from actual evidence, I have not seen anything that would even indicate that Smich was involved in anything until the actual incineration.

 

[Woodland]

Hindsight is 20/20, easy to be an armchair quarterback after the fact. Fact is that there the majority of the 3000 or so people that disappear every year probably have some interesting information on them as well. And quite simply, police know how this missing person game goes; of the 3000, 2980 will turn up on their own, 15 may have committed suicide, and the remaining five might really need to be searched for (missing children or people with dementia for instance). It is extremely rare that some is murdered when there is no prior threat (violent boyfriend, stalker, threats, organized crime, etc.). LB didn't fall in to any of these categories, she just happened to cross paths with a lunatic. Unfortunately you can't prevent people from being hit by lightning, which is essentially what happened to Laura.

Remember, detectives investigate crimes, and up until TB there was no real evidence that one had been committed. If you want to cast blame, look at all DM's friends who either knew or should have known what was going on the minute LB disappeared.

There isn't any hindsight where the disappearance of LB is concerned - saying there is hindsight is a personal view, not a fact.

TPS rejected that she was a missing person, and according to TPS they did not have LB's phonebill prior to the discovery of TB on DM's property. Yet SL claims he gave it to them or tried to give it to them.

20/20 often brings memory problems. Jmo.

 

[Coldpizza]

Good morning

Millard is slated to begin his cross-examination this morning, starting at 10 a.m.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?356260-Laura-Babcock-Murder-Trial-11-14-17-Day-15

 

[mimimic]

I don't see it anywhere.

Not sure what the crown is doing. It was quite clear that it was said in the opening statement that Millard, Smich and LBs phone left Maple Gate and headed for the Lakeshore. The witnesses seem to have testified to something different, that Millard went to Waterloo alone. In fact, from actual evidence, I have not seen anything that would even indicate that Smich was involved in anything until the actual incineration.

 

[THXGuru]

Not sure what the crown is doing. It was quite clear that it was said in the opening statement that Millard, Smich and LBs phone left Maple Gate and headed for the Lakeshore. The witnesses seem to have testified to something different, that Millard went to Waterloo alone. In fact, from actual evidence, I have not seen anything that would even indicate that Smich was involved in anything until the actual incineration.

The evidence against MS is crystal clear. He made the rap video. It was testified from a witness that he said they burned a body and then said we killed a girl. I believe the iPad puts him at the scene when he changed the name. I am sure there is more evidence. The burning was destroying or covering up the crime. He had LB red bag at his house. He also mentioned that they need to bring something with bones. Pictures at the incinerator.

And before you say, well his words don't mean he did it. Let us not forget that he currently has FIVE separate criminal convictions of the criminal code. The 5th would be murder. There is also a 6th charge of graffiti pending as well as this current 7th charge of murder. You can't listen to anything he says.

 

[mimimic]

Just because I think he didn't go doesn't mean I don't think he is innocent.Sorry so many double negatives...I think MS is guilty- just that he didn't go with DM

 

[paris_paris]

I watched all the videos again last night and made some notes.

Initially the drama between LB and CN didn’t seem to be a big issue for DM. Then while he was in to Reno in April, things escalated between CN and LB. That’s when he told Laura not to contact him any more, and he arranged to meet CN in Vegas. They were back in early May.

On May 16th he started talking to SS about the home made incinerator. DM and MS tested it at the end of May. June 6 DM was still asking for progress reports and it still wasn’t ready and MS was looking at mobile units.

June 9 DM and CN break up. June 20 the Eliminator is ordered. July 3/4 LB is killed.

Looking at it like this in the timeline, I'm convinced that DM and CN started planning this while in Vegas.

I also think (MOO) there have been other people killed over the years.

 

[Tealgrove]

Hindsight is 20/20, easy to be an armchair quarterback after the fact. Fact is that there the majority of the 3000 or so people that disappear every year probably have some interesting information on them as well. And quite simply, police know how this missing person game goes; of the 3000, 2980 will turn up on their own, 15 may have committed suicide, and the remaining five might really need to be searched for (missing children or people with dementia for instance). It is extremely rare that some is murdered when there is no prior threat (violent boyfriend, stalker, threats, organized crime, etc.). LB didn't fall in to any of these categories, she just happened to cross paths with a lunatic. Unfortunately you can't prevent people from being hit by lightning, which is essentially what happened to Laura.

Remember, detectives investigate crimes, and up until TB there was no real evidence that one had been committed. If you want to cast blame, look at all DM's friends who either knew or should have known what was going on the minute LB disappeared.

BBM

Agreed that LE investigate crimes however, missing people are just that...missing. My guess is that 99% of the time there is no crime involved and that people voluntarily go missing. LE still investigates missing persons cases. A crime may or may not have been committed at the outset, but they still investigate. But they didn't for Laura.

I guess the question is, what triggers them to investigate? Silver Alerts (vulnerable seniors) get quick and serious LE consideration. Children who are missing also get LE resources and rightly so. They too are vulnerable.

Someone doesn't show up at work and a welfare check can be requested and is done. Maybe a crime scene, maybe not. They don't know but they do it. They go and check it out.

LE are to SERVE AND PROTECT not just investigate crimes.

Laura was let down in a huge way. She was vulnerable, she suffered from mental illness, and she was missing. Her family reported her missing and SL tried desperately to get TPS to listen to him. They didn't. It's that simple.

I think they didn't do anything because she was a sex worker with not only mental health issues, but drug issues as well. The mentality is, oh well...she had it coming. She was living a high risk lifestyle. She put herself out there. Let's not waste our time on this.

BTW, I would wager a guess that Laura is not the only "missing person" that LE chose not to investigate.

MOO

 

[inbetweendoors]

I watched all the videos again last night and made some notes.

Initially the drama between LB and CN didn’t seem to be a big issue for DM. Then while he was in to Reno in April, things escalated between CN and LB. That’s when he told Laura not to contact him any more, and he arranged to meet CN in Vegas. They were back in early May.

On May 16th he started talking to SS about the home made incinerator. DM and MS tested it at the end of May. June 6 DM was still asking for progress reports and it still wasn’t ready and MS was looking at mobile units.

June 9 DM and CN break up. June 20 the Eliminator is ordered. July 3/4 LB is killed.

Looking at it like this in the timeline, I'm convinced that DM and CN started planning this while in Vegas.

I also think (MOO) there have been other people killed over the years.

I agree. But I'm also still not seeing a real "triggering" event that finally made him do it. I understand that DM is in a heinous class of his own and doesn't necessarily need a "final straw" so to speak, but to me it just seems to come out of relatively nowhere...particularly considering he had (at least temporarily) ended things with CN.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

 

[Grey-St]

Hindsight is 20/20, easy to be an armchair quarterback after the fact. Fact is that there the majority of the 3000 or so people that disappear every year probably have some interesting information on them as well. And quite simply, police know how this missing person game goes; of the 3000, 2980 will turn up on their own, 15 may have committed suicide, and the remaining five might really need to be searched for (missing children or people with dementia for instance). It is extremely rare that some is murdered when there is no prior threat (violent boyfriend, stalker, threats, organized crime, etc.). LB didn't fall in to any of these categories, she just happened to cross paths with a lunatic. Unfortunately you can't prevent people from being hit by lightning, which is essentially what happened to Laura.

Remember, detectives investigate crimes, and up until TB there was no real evidence that one had been committed. If you want to cast blame, look at all DM's friends who either knew or should have known what was going on the minute LB disappeared.

You’re entitled to your opinion. It is however my opinion that folks should resist making excuses for the TPS. I don’t think this is a case of “hindsight is 20/20”. That would suggest that only a minor mistake or oversight was made. They completely disregarded SL’s evidence. They did not pursue an investigation. They did not follow leads. Just because at that time, there may not have been sufficient evidence to suggest that a crime was comitted, does not mean that you don’t investigate what happened to a missing women. The TPS’s hands are not clean on this matter.

 

[paris_paris]

I agree. But I'm also still not seeing a real "triggering" event that finally made him do it. I understand that DM is in a heinous class of his own and doesn't necessarily need a "final straw" so to speak, but to me it just seems to come out of relatively nowhere...particularly considering he had (at least temporarily) ended things with CN.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

It's not shown in text messages but I think the trigger was DM and CN getting back together after the June 9th breakup.

 

[winter2017]

I am sure that TPS has treated other people the same way. If they find out that the person is poor, etc, they won't bother very much. They never even spoke to DM even though was told by SL he was the last person to speak to her. Not one phone call to him, it is shocking they never bothered to speak to DM. If they had put his name in their data base his name would have come up because they had a record of his tattoo.
The family must have filed a missing report, and they ignored that too.

 

[Coldpizza]

Good morning

Millard is slated to begin his cross-examination this morning, starting at 10 a.m.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?356260-Laura-Babcock-Murder-Trial-11-14-17-Day-15

Trial thread is open for posting.

Thanks to all that can help with the tweets. :cupcake:

This thread will close once the proceedings begin.

 

[Coldpizza]

We're now underway in court -- I'll let you know once the jury is in and open court begins. We're slated to start the day with Millard cross-referencing Dr. Tracy Rogers, a forensics expert.
by Adam Carter 9:41 AM

Closing up now