Babcock Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #4

[JuneBug67]

I have never seen MM outside of pictures so that doesn't impact me any. I also don't think AM or SS were involved or knew about the murders. They all minimized their roles in thefts etc, but personally I don't feel anyone other than DM or MS knew about the murders.

We also have MS and DM texting about her not coming and then MS saying she'll wait in the car. So there is some backup to that.

There's an element of common sense that should be at play. People generally take great pains to conceal murder when they do it, rather than work to widen the circle of people who know about it.

 

[NoodlesMcgee]

Starting to run possible fanciful defenses for DM through my head. If he testifies surely he will have to acknowledge some things, like being with her on the 3rd and 4th? I can imagine something like this maybe:

-picked Laura up and spent the night with her
-dropped her off the next day at location x (some busy place) because she had a prearranged escort date
-claim her phone died around 11 am in the car and she said she would charge it later and call him to pick her up again
-claim she was expected back so she left her stuff at Maple Gate and had DM plug her iPad in to to charge
-didn't hear from her as expected but chalked that up to her current lifestyle and didn't do anything other than try to call (he may even have made calls like that to cover up)
-got back with Christina shortly after and didn't want to have to acknowledge Laura had been there once it became clear that she really was missing. He had no useful information anyway.
-eventually gave away or discarded her belongings
-minimize/deflect his dealings with Iisho
-claim animal incinerator really was an animal incinerator and that that was not Laura or any other human being on the 23rd
-claim he said what he said to XTina about hurting LB was impulsive, not really meant or intended, and done just to smooth his own way with his angry gf

OR

-somehow pin it on Smich

It's funny. When we learned MS was going to testify at the Bosma trial I did the same creative exercise in my head and came up almost exactly with what he eventually said. DM suddenly shot Tim, looked like a madman, MS in shock, fearful, acting on auto pilot after etc. etc. LOL. That says something I think about how most people lie in a kind of predictable and universal way. Kind of like a bad, low budget movie. Reaching for credibility through limited imagination.

DM is in a tough spot since he doesn't know what defense MS is going to use. If he goes with option a of saying it didn't happen and then MS says it did and he helped clean up... Then he's screwed

 

[Stumper]

Not being able to use prior murder convictions is as much about making police and prosecutors do their job and avoid easy shortcuts then it is about accused rights. Also is the best compromise for public safety because every wrongful conviction keeps a perpetrator free, experienced and embolded

 

[NoodlesMcgee]

I don't agree.
MM is a street-smart girl. She wouldn't say anything in this trial that would intimidate her.
She just wants this over and done.
If she was left out of the loop Mark would have said "I love you. Don't worry".
Not, "Don't tell them anything! Don't tell them anything!"

MS had told her he was with DM when he killed a guy... More than enough reason for him to want her to be quiet.

 

[NoodlesMcgee]

I am curious to find out what everybody thinks...

Are there enough evidences at this point to conclude the following:
1. LB is no longer alive?
2. DM was planning the killing
3. MS was aware re DM plan and actively participated

and also...apologies for being too graphic.....

If we believe LB died at Maple Gate - how technically her body was transported from the house to the farm?
- body was wrapped in the tarp at the house and transported to the farm?
- body was transported to the farm unwrapped and wrapped in the tarp at the farm?

It's just that I am having very hard time to envision this 'transportation episode' given that in a hot and wet climates the body will start smelling within hours....

Thank you everybody!

1. Yes (phone records of LB)
2. Yes (eliminator and bones needed for test, temperature of cremation search etc... Also ruins the animal incinerator defense since why do you care if you have bones leftover for animals)
3. I think you can prove he was aware (same reason as 2 above). Did he participate? Don't know beyond the burning of the body.

As for the transportation question... Don't know the answer to that. Logic would suggest the tarp was at the house but no proof one way or the other.

 

[NoodlesMcgee]

They just throw the sinister stuff out there and let the jury draw their own conclusions. Like two juries have been invited to believe the incinerator was purchased for each respective victim. I'm waiting for it in the CM trial next, until DM figured out he would need a body. Really, it is the one victim for which it might actually make sense. He could expect a return of control of millions on that $15,000 dollar investment.

This made me think that perhaps LB was practice before the WM main event. The thing that always seems weird with this murder is the lack of reason for it. With WM you could argue it was for money and for TB you can say it was for the truck but with LB outside of maybe some money doesn't seem to be a reason for it (as I don't buy the avenging CN storyline since I don't think he cared that much for her anyway)

 

[Tealgrove]

DM is in a tough spot since he doesn't know what defense MS is going to use. If he goes with option a of saying it didn't happen and then MS says it did and he helped clean up... Then he's screwed[/QUOTE]

BBM

AGAIN!!!!

 

[Grey-St]

Seems like a lot of people here give MM a pass because she's a cute young girl. Nobody gives SS or AM the same credit, because they both claim to have changed and both testified. But we all know that they didn't tell us everything. I see MM in the same light. I have no doubt what she has said might be at least partially true, its what she isn't saying that bothers me. We know from Smich's text to Millard that she was at Maple Gate on July 3rd, and as she was taking pics with the iPad on the 4th its reasonable to assume that she was there during the murder. The fact that the crown did not even broach the subject of the 3rd tells me that whatever she said about that day was not only not helpful to the prosecution, but was likely not believable. I find it very hard to believe that a shooting death could occur in a residential home without another occupant of that home at least hearing or sensing something had happened. Same thing with the burning of the body, If Smich was going to confine her to the car, why bring her at all?

Let me ask all of you how you can be certain that MM didn't see LBs dead body at Maple Gate, and how you can be certain she didn't help with the disposal of the body? People are curious by nature. You hear what sounds like a gunshot from upstairs, you go up and see what happened. Your boyfriend tells you they are testing an incinerator, you ask "why do I have to wait in the car?". Her entire story makes little to no sense if you think about how a normal person would react if put in her situation.

I don't believe anyone here is giving MM a pass because she is a cute, young girl. I worry that if that's what you believe, you may not be interpreting our posts accurately or objectively. I also give everyone involved with DM the same benefit as MM, including SS and AM. DM groomed everyone "working" for him, and I don't judge them based on their past involvement in or knowledge of illegal activities. If you research the stages of exploitation, you'll see that this is how DM operated.

To answer some of your questions, if LB was murdered by gunshot on the 3rd like the crown may be leading, I can tell you that yes, it is actually possible to not hear it if you're in another part of a large home. There's many ways to muffle the sound of a gun. She was also brought along on the 23rd, because the relationship she was in was abusive, and possessive, and MS wanted her around at all times, as a means of control in an unhealthy power dynamic. I've been in such a relationship, and can tell you that it is not uncommon to simply comply and do as your told, with limited information. It actually saddens me that MM was in a place in life, that this is what she accepted as love.

She wasn't a "normal" person. She was a damaged person. And I can only hope that life has gotten better for her.

 

[Stumper]

This made me think that perhaps LB was a test before the WM main event. The thing that always seems weird with this murder is the lack of reason for it. With WM you could argue it was for money and for TB you can say it was for the truck but with LB outside of maybe some money doesn't seem to be a reason for it (as I don't buy the avenging CN storyline since I don't think he cared that much for her anyway)

I think there real motivation in this and TB’s case was thrill kill. They were infatuated and identified with evil (SAY10 and D MAN) and wanted to move up the levels. Many involved or infatuated in the occult feel that taking a life gives them power. Or they just had a need to prove how badass they were capable of being. There is evidence in both cases of both of them being on a high of sorts in the aftermath of the crimes and incinerations. They were hooked for whatever reason and were not about to stop after TB

 

[JuneBug67]

There's an element of common sense that should be at play. People generally take great pains to conceal murder when they do it, rather than work to widen the circle of people who know about it.

Quoting myself to wonder if this could be another point distancing MS from the murder? Would he have felt as chatty on his playdate in the garage if he had actually killed her? And on the idea of distancing, I was struck, perhaps stupidly, by MS's use of the phrase "talking to that girl" re use of the incinerator. The use of 'that' was interesting to me. He didn't say 'the girl', or 'the *****' as he did in his rap. 'That' sounds more distant, like it's somebody you only know of, or know indirectly. Once he had actually shoved her body into an incinerator, it became more personal. Then, she was 'the *****'. But only after he 'met' her. It may be nothing of course, but it did strike me right away. Sometimes there is information in very small things. I saw something small but striking like this in the hangar video in the TB case when DM and MS were recording on the camera walking through. There was a small hesitation or tentativeness in MS's step behind DM. I never could figure out what I though it meant, but it was there.

 

[Tealgrove]

This made me think that perhaps LB was practice before the WM main event. The thing that always seems weird with this murder is the lack of reason for it. With WM you could argue it was for money and for TB you can say it was for the truck but with LB outside of maybe some money doesn't seem to be a reason for it (as I don't buy the avenging CN storyline since I don't think he cared that much for her anyway)

It's all quite juvenile in my humble opinion. From bullying texts between the "women" and tit for tat conversations I want to scream at them all to GROW UP!


Did none of these people understand that there was a BLOCK feature on their phones?

And as for DM....it just seemed that he needed to tell LB to take a hike, block her number, don't engage and freeze her out. There are ways to "get rid of" someone without resorting to murder.

I just have never understood the need to kill Laura.

MOO

 

[JuneBug67]

This made me think that perhaps LB was practice before the WM main event. The thing that always seems weird with this murder is the lack of reason for it. With WM you could argue it was for money and for TB you can say it was for the truck but with LB outside of maybe some money doesn't seem to be a reason for it (as I don't buy the avenging CN storyline since I don't think he cared that much for her anyway)

Yes...I had that same idea...a simple test subject. Somebody who had irritated him in the past. Or, it was unplanned.

 

[napper505]

Smich texts Millard: "R u here or did u dip?" Babcock Day 13: Falconer testimony
Jul 3 2:53 pm Smich texts Millard: "It's raining
Babcock Day 13: Falconer testimony
Jul 3 3:09 pm Millard texts Smich: "how bout the white & brown paint over the side entrance? no rain there

Appears to be another coded text....I checked historical toronto weather frcst - there were no rain on july 3 .. partly cloudy with temp around 24/27C....
Any thoughts anyone?

I checked the historical radar and there indeed was rain in the Toronto area . Hope this link works

http://climate.weather.gc.ca/radar/...ation=12&image_type=PRECIP_SNOW_WEATHEROFFICE

Napper

 

[JuneBug67]

I think there real motivation in this and TB’s case was thrill kill. They were infatuated and identified with evil (SAY10 and D MAN) and wanted to move up the levels. Many involved or infatuated in the occult feel that taking a life gives them power. Or they just had a need to prove how badass they were capable of being. There is evidence in both cases of both of them being on a high of sorts in the aftermath of the crimes and incinerations. They were hooked for whatever reason and were not about to stop after TB

I didn't buy the thrill kill motivation in the TB trial, and I don't buy the love triangle fallout motivation in this trial. It has always felt to me that there is a missing piece with that incinerator purchase that would help everything else make more sense. I reject the purchase of the incinerator as proof of specific premeditation in both cases, but it's basic existence might be.

 

[Stumper]

This made me think that perhaps LB was practice before the WM main event. The thing that always seems weird with this murder is the lack of reason for it. With WM you could argue it was for money and for TB you can say it was for the truck but with LB outside of maybe some money doesn't seem to be a reason for it (as I don't buy the avenging CN storyline since I don't think he cared that much for her anyway)

I didn't buy the thrill kill motivation in the TB trial, and I don't buy the love triangle fallout motivation in this trial. It has always felt to me that there is a missing piece with that incinerator purchase that would help everything else make more sense. I reject the purchase of the incinerator as proof of specific premeditation in both cases, but it's basic existence might be.

IMO it is a pretty clear progression. Thrill pit smoking, thrill sex, thrill harder drugs, thrill cheating sex, thrill shop lifting, thrill heroin, thrill small time stealing, more thrill risky cheating sex, thrill ominously insinuating texts, extreme pride and entitlement feeling makes you want to go to “next level stuff”, ***** pi

 

[Stumper]

I didn't buy the thrill kill motivation in the TB trial, and I don't buy the love triangle fallout motivation in this trial. It has always felt to me that there is a missing piece with that incinerator purchase that would help everything else make more sense. I reject the purchase of the incinerator as proof of specific premeditation in both cases, but it's basic existence might be.

IMO it is a pretty clear progression. Thrill smoking pot and partying, thrill sex, thrill harder drugs, thrill cheating sex, thrill shop lifting, thrill heroin, thrill small time stealing, thrill more risky cheating sex, thrill big item stealing, thrill close run in with cops and coming away clean, thrill running the boarder with illegal items, thrill close call but getting away again, ominously insinuating texts, extreme pride and entitlement feeling makes you want to go to “next level stuff”, girlfriend is turned on wonders if you are really man enough to do something like that or just all talk, thrill buy illegal gun and incinerator, the pain in the *** side piece starts causing unending drama in your life and is deeply involved in a “risky” lifestyle making her an easy first target, thrill inviting the vulnerable side piece ***** over one last time, thrill...

I could keep going and add unending details base on evidence in last few cases, but the progression is clear I believe.

MS would be a different progression of course, which I could outline if anyone was interested

 

[Tilly23]

I think the idea for incinerating a human body was hatched after the Vegas trip with CN. DM returned in early May 2012 and then started talking to SS about building the homemade incinerator in texts on May 16. Was it specifically intended to be for getting rid of LB? Maybe - but possibly it was part of a grander plan to kill people - to be able to commit a "perfect crime" where there would be no body as evidence. I think both DM and MS might have been excited in a "world domination" with evil kind of way by the very idea of it. And once the idea of using it was there, they could not let it go. The homemade "garbage incinerator" was a bust, but the plan evolved into the research and purchase of the Eliminator - a serious and real piece of machinery capable of fulfilling their twisted dreams.

Now incinerating a victim became pretty much a practical reality to them and it became a possible option.

You know that expression "To a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail."? Maybe "to a psychopath with an incinerator, any weak and vulnerable human looks like a possible victim"?

Maybe even "to a psychopath with an incinerator that just cleared customs and is about to be delivered, that weak and vulnerable human that keeps throwing herself at him looks amazingly like an easy target"?

All MOO.

 

[billandrew]

MS would be a different progression of course, which I could outline if anyone was interested

Yes please. opcorn:

 

[bakingirl]

I want everyone to remember that MM is in a tough position.

You have no idea how terrifying it can be to have information that can put someone in jail for a long time, and also know what that person is capable of. MM also has to think about her safety in the future. No doubt those boys are going to be locked up forever, but that doesn't mean the fear MM could be feeling for safety isn't real.

This is why you sometimes get people lying on the stand, not to protect the guilty, but to protect herself. Whether or not those boys have made dangerous friends in jail, she knows what they are capable of, and I'm sure she spends a lot of time looking over her shoulder. I know I do.

I agree 100 percent.

 

[Yendys]

1. Yes (phone records of LB)
2. Yes (eliminator and bones needed for test, temperature of cremation search etc... Also ruins the animal incinerator defense since why do you care if you have bones leftover for animals)
3. I think you can prove he was aware (same reason as 2 above). Did he participate? Don't know beyond the burning of the body.

As for the transportation question... Don't know the answer to that. Logic would suggest the tarp was at the house but no proof one way or the other.

As I read your post it occurred to me that in the picture of the rolled tarp and Pedo there was what appeared to be clear plastic with red tape that some said looked like it was on the patio doors at DM's house. What if DM rolled his spliff with the clear plastic at the house because a) LB's death was unplanned ( I don't believe so) or b) DM never though of how to contain bodily fluids.
So, LB was rolled in the clear plastic at the house, DM goes to the hanger and gets a blue tarp, then off to the barn to stash the body and there it is wrapped better in the blue tarp for storage :gaah: and put in the steel barrels that fit over each other. The clear wrap is removed as lets face it would be easy to see what is inside unlike the blue tarp.