Bath Time Photos Prompt Child *advertiser censored* Allegations

[gitana1]

Some of you would freak if you went to Europe in the summer. In many countries of Europe, especially Italy, France and Spain where my dad is from, many kids don't really wear bathing suits until they hit about 8 or 9. Kids run around naked at the beach until then. People in general there find nothing sexual about a child's body and would be horrified to know that others think so. I have seen several pics of my cousins naked, or partially unclothed - at the beach.
In the U.S., we come from a Puritan tradition which views the body as sinful and the roots of that have persisted to today. Some think that attitude may account for the large volume of child predators we have in this country compared to countries who do not have that view. It is thought that rigid thinking about sex and nudity, etc, actually causes more perversion.
All I know is that my poor Dutch mother allowed me to run around in Newport Beach, CA, without a bathing suit until I was about 5 and she caught some gross man leering at me as I played on the beach. She was horrified. She had never been exposed to that type of thing in Holland or Spain. Needless to say, I always wore a bathing suit after that!
I gotta' tell ya' though, the feeling of being in the ocean with nothing between my skin and the water was a great one. Too bad we have to even think of these things when it comes to innocent little kids, but we do. And I would be afraid of taking such a picture of my kid at any age over about two, not only because I'd worry about some "educated" Walmart employee thinking it was kiddie *advertiser censored*, but also because I'd worry about some "educated" Walmart employee making copies for his own "entertainment". There are a lot of weirdos out there. Ick.
Post mark: My brother was actually one of those "educated" employees who turned a customer in. But the pictures he developed were of a five year old girl posing for supposedly "medical" photos that exposed her genitals. So, I guess I shouldn't bash the employees too much. My brother was trained to spot inappropriate photos as are all developers and what he reported ended up totally being kiddie *advertiser censored*. The cops waited for the customer to come back and the guy was arrested.

 

[Anubis]

The problem is the scum that has turned something cute and sweet into something judged as disgusting. If we would deal with child molesters and rapists (all of them) as we should, we would not face this issue now. BTW, I have THE MOST ADORABLE picture of my 2 year old son naked as the way God made him, in my red high heel pumps and carrying my matching red purse while parading around the living room. He's 17 now and horrified that I may show it to his girlfriend someday.

 

[Lyn1001]

BTW, I have THE MOST ADORABLE picture of my 2 year old son naked as the way God made him, in my red high heel pumps and carrying my matching red purse while parading around the living room. He's 17 now and horrified that I may show it to his girlfriend someday.

That is priceless!!!! My 3 year old daughter likes to be naked and will "vacum" naked. In high heels. Funny thing is, DH is the one who vacums in our house!! Lol.

 

[Anubis]

In the U.S., we come from a Puritan tradition which views the body as sinful and the roots of that have persisted to today. Some think that attitude may account for the large volume of child predators we have in this country compared to countries who do not have that view. It is thought that rigid thinking about sex and nudity, etc, actually causes more perversion.

Germany and the Netherlands (a country well known for it's "open" views on sex and nudity) have the highest rate of child *advertiser censored* rings in the world (you can confirm this through Interpol) and because they have such loose definitions about sexual abuse, molesters are just getting away with it. There are approximately 603,000 registered sex offenders in the US. Bear in mind that number includes people who had to register for things like: mooning, urinating in public, exposing your gentilia and/or breasts, underage sex, etc). This number represents .0001 percent of the US population.

Statistically speaking (this time from the FBI), men (and women) who commit sexual crimes, especially ones against children, are commonly addicted to *advertiser censored*, have low self esteem, cannot maintain "normal" relations with adults and view children and/or women as objects and not people. None of this has anything to do with "puritanical" views of sex and nudity. We are inundated with sexual images every day in the US, where women and children (and even men) are objectified and de-personified.

IMO, the problem in society as a whole is that these individuals (in the past) would have been shunned and driven out of society, even killed. We're too busy coddling them these days. If the dog is rabid, you put it down, so to speak.

A perfect example of this is Phillip Garrido. He got into drugs, became hyper sexual (it happens to some as a reaction), abused and attempted to abuse women until he found his "perfect" subject: a young girl who could not fight back.

 

[Miss_Scarlett]

Some of you would freak if you went to Europe in the summer. In many countries of Europe, especially Italy, France and Spain where my dad is from, many kids don't really wear bathing suits until they hit about 8 or 9. Kids run around naked at the beach until then. People in general there find nothing sexual about a child's body and would be horrified to know that others think so. I have seen several pics of my cousins naked, or partially unclothed - at the beach.
In the U.S., we come from a Puritan tradition which views the body as sinful and the roots of that have persisted to today. Some think that attitude may account for the large volume of child predators we have in this country compared to countries who do not have that view. It is thought that rigid thinking about sex and nudity, etc, actually causes more perversion.
All I know is that my poor Dutch mother allowed me to run around in Newport Beach, CA, without a bathing suit until I was about 5 and she caught some gross man leering at me as I played on the beach. She was horrified. She had never been exposed to that type of thing in Holland or Spain. Needless to say, I always wore a bathing suit after that!
I gotta' tell ya' though, the feeling of being in the ocean with nothing between my skin and the water was a great one. Too bad we have to even think of these things when it comes to innocent little kids, but we do. And I would be afraid of taking such a picture of my kid at any age over about two, not only because I'd worry about some "educated" Walmart employee thinking it was kiddie *advertiser censored*, but also because I'd worry about some "educated" Walmart employee making copies for his own "entertainment". There are a lot of weirdos out there. Ick.
Post mark: My brother was actually one of those "educated" employees who turned a customer in. But the pictures he developed were of a five year old girl posing for supposedly "medical" photos that exposed her genitals. So, I guess I shouldn't bash the employees too much. My brother was trained to spot inappropriate photos as are all developers and what he reported ended up totally being kiddie *advertiser censored*. The cops waited for the customer to come back and the guy was arrested.

I remember being stunned even as a child when a slightly younger girl was on the beach with us without a top. Really, it should not matter at that age at the very least, but even then I knew our social mores. And it is such a shame. My son loves being naked after his bath. He loves to run around naked and announce the fact that he is naked. He used to look at himself in the mirror, too. I think that's totally healthy.

 

[VespaElf]

Anubis-
Thank you! Your post was amazing & a simple "thanks" was not enough!
IIRC child *advertiser censored* was only recently outlawed in the Netherlands & bestiality is still legal! If thats being an enlightened,"superior" etc European I say NO THANK YOU!!

 

[gitana1]

Germany and the Netherlands (a country well known for it's "open" views on sex and nudity) have the highest rate of child *advertiser censored* rings in the world (you can confirm this through Interpol) and because they have such loose definitions about sexual abuse, molesters are just getting away with it. There are approximately 603,000 registered sex offenders in the US. Bear in mind that number includes people who had to register for things like: mooning, urinating in public, exposing your gentilia and/or breasts, underage sex, etc). This number represents .0001 percent of the US population.

Statistically speaking (this time from the FBI), men (and women) who commit sexual crimes, especially ones against children, are commonly addicted to *advertiser censored*, have low self esteem, cannot maintain "normal" relations with adults and view children and/or women as objects and not people. None of this has anything to do with "puritanical" views of sex and nudity. We are inundated with sexual images every day in the US, where women and children (and even men) are objectified and de-personified.

IMO, the problem in society as a whole is that these individuals (in the past) would have been shunned and driven out of society, even killed. We're too busy coddling them these days. If the dog is rabid, you put it down, so to speak.

A perfect example of this is Phillip Garrido. He got into drugs, became hyper sexual (it happens to some as a reaction), abused and attempted to abuse women until he found his "perfect" subject: a young girl who could not fight back.

I am well aware of the child *advertiser censored* reports from the Netherlands but are you aware that much of the *advertiser censored* circulating through there originated in other countries, like the U.S.?
http://www.crime-research.org/articles/536/2 (Section III, third para.).
It is marketed or "packaged" in Europe but the actual victims were abused in the U.S. or Thailand, etc.

Actual sex abuse statistics are very hard to come by because it depends on what is considered as you show in the quote above. Does it include flashing a kid or actual touching? In one study in Germany, 8.6% of females reported childhood sexual abuse with physical contact: http://books.google.com/books?id=xa...resnum=4&ved=0CBsQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=&f=false (Pages 82-83).

In the U.S. anywhere from 8 to 71% of girls are sexually abused, depending on the study. Generally, Europe as a whole and the U.S. show rates that are comparable. [ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sexual_abuse[/ame]
But, then all of Europe was examined and the rates vary widely, depending on the country.

I can tell you about my firsthand experience in Spain, where sexual attitudes are more "libertine" than in the U.S. (for example, *advertiser censored* is shown on regular t.v. at night). Abductions of children by strangers are not that common. When they do occur, it's usually Brits who are doing the snatching. It is harder to grab a kid in most cities in Spain or to molest one, etc, due to the lifestyle. Old age homes are not as common as here. Families tend to live very close to one another and often, several extended family members in one home. During work hours, you mostly see grandparents or aunts caring for kids whose parents work. Abusing one's child is generally harder to do because there are several family members always around and watching. Kids generally play in plazas or large courtyards where numerous adults, many of them older ladies, sit around, gossiping and watching the kids. It's still a place where your neighbor can tell you off if you misbehave.
I remember one year as an adult when I was more conscious of child abuse, being horrified when my little cousins ran out to play alone. My aunts looked at me like I was crazy to be worried about their safety. There was one case of a disappeared kid in several years around that time and her face was papered on every single storefront. It was a national scandal.

Any single male living alone is considered abnormal and watched carefully by the old ladies. Most single adults live with their families in homes without much privacy.
Also, neighbors tend to butt in more than here when there are domestic problems. Years ago, there was a man in my family's neighborhood who could be heard shouting at his wife a lot and she would show up with bruises. One day, the men gathered in a bar to decide what to do. They confronted him, beat him up and told him that he better make sure his wife never had any "accidents" again because one more scratch, and he'd be dead. He never struck her again.

Another case that was aired internationally showed a man holding a knife to his toddler as a crowd surrounded him. The crowd surged angrily yet carefully around him intent on saving the child and killing the man. People there often take matters into their own hands when it comes to protecting victims of crime. The police actually had to save not only the child, but the man who was in danger of being killed by the crowd.

Essentially, my experience in Spain is that children are sacred there. Today, people don't have as many kids as we do here and kids are coddled, spoiled, almost worshipped. It actually rose to the level of annoying to me at times! Kids are called my "soul" my "heart", babied and relentlessly adored. Every child is "guapissimo", or "most beautiful". Children's bodies are not viewed as sexual and kids behavior is never seen as sexualized. If a child acts in a way that here might be considered sexual, there they call it "tonteria", stupidness, and the kid is told, "What are you doing? Pshaw, knock that off." But people are annoyed by it because they don't view children as potential objects of sexual desire and instead think the kid is being stupid and imitating something he or she is too young to understand. I guess the closest way I can explain it from what I observed is that for the most part, young kids are seen as neuters, their bodies, every part, are seen as "cute" and infantile and they would be appalled at the thought of anyone looking at a child's sexual organs, for example, as arousing.
In Spain, adults are supposed to be sexual beings who love romance and kissing, and there is a lot of that all over the streets (people usually can't find privacy in their own homes), but that behavior is to occur between adults, or teens, not between adults and children. From my experience, sex is not taboo or hidden there, it is not considered dirty, and kids are taught about it but children are seen as innocent beings, period.
That's why it is still okay there for kids to run around naked at the beach or in the house while here, where we come from a tradition that states that the body is sinful or dirty, innocent children must keep covered.

 

[gitana1]

Anubis-
Thank you! Your post was amazing & a simple "thanks" was not enough!
IIRC child *advertiser censored* was only recently outlawed in the Netherlands & bestiality is still legal! If thats being an enlightened,"superior" etc European I say NO THANK YOU!!

Bestiality is not legal in Holland. Also, what you are referring to I think are newer EXPAT laws all around the world which strengthen child trafficking laws. What is considered sexual abuse has also added confusion to the laws in Europe.
I do think the laws in Holland against sex abuse lagged behind the times. But, who the heck said that was enlightened? That is not the point.
There was a case a few years back here where a lady from somewhere in Scandinavia came here and left her baby in front of a store, IIRC. She was arrested for child endangerment. But, in northern Europe, it was long the custom to leave babies in bassinets in the sun, unattended. I think that has changed somewhat but the reason it has been practiced for so long is because child abductions were so rare there.
The point is, from what I have studied and observed, criminal laws are much weaker in general in Europe and yet, the crime rates are not higher. In many places, they are lower.
My belief is that when it comes to sex crimes, at least, puritanical views CAN lead to perverse behaviors. Hence, we have all sorts of people here who are strident supporters of "family values" yet they are secretly involved in all sorts of weird stuff. That may be why in the most sexually repressive societies like Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints, or super strict Islamic countries, there is a lot of child sexual abuse.
I do think that *advertiser censored* can fuel someone who is perverted to begin with but I don't think that access to adult *advertiser censored* alone will necessarily pervert an otherwise normal person.
I am for very strict laws against any crime against children in any and every country because anyone who hurts a kid should never see the light of day. They are too dangerous and do not change. But, I do think that the need may be greater in some countries. I believe that attitudes in general that the human body is dirty or sinful contribute to the need for such laws.
The loss of innocence of our children and the fact that a sweet kid's photo unclothed is now automatically seen as *advertiser censored* by many shows us that we have lost too much in our country. Simply put, we need to put away the bad guys so kids can be free to be kids and then treat children as the innocent things they are, not as potential sex objects. Sex is not dirty, and the human body is not shameful. It's those who would hurt a child who are dirty and shameful.

 

[VespaElf]

Bestiality is not legal in Holland. Also, what you are referring to I think are newer EXPAT laws all around the world which strengthen child trafficking laws. What is considered sexual abuse has also added confusion to the laws in Europe.
I do think the laws in Holland against sex abuse lagged behind the times. But, who the heck said that was enlightened? That is not the point.
There was a case a few years back here where a lady from somewhere in Scandinavia came here and left her baby in front of a store, IIRC. She was arrested for child endangerment. But, in northern Europe, it was long the custom to leave babies in bassinets in the sun, unattended. I think that has changed somewhat but the reason it has been practiced for so long is because child abductions were so rare there.
The point is, from what I have studied and observed, criminal laws are much weaker in general in Europe and yet, the crime rates are not higher. In many places, they are lower.
My belief is that when it comes to sex crimes, at least, puritanical views CAN lead to perverse behaviors. Hence, we have all sorts of people here who are strident supporters of "family values" yet they are secretly involved in all sorts of weird stuff. That may be why in the most sexually repressive societies like Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints, or super strict Islamic countries, there is a lot of child sexual abuse.
I do think that *advertiser censored* can fuel someone who is perverted to begin with but I don't think that access to adult *advertiser censored* alone will necessarily pervert an otherwise normal person.
I am for very strict laws against any crime against children in any and every country because anyone who hurts a kid should never see the light of day. They are too dangerous and do not change. But, I do think that the need may be greater in some countries. I believe that attitudes in general that the human body is dirty or sinful contribute to the need for such laws.
The loss of innocence of our children and the fact that a sweet kid's photo unclothed is now automatically seen as *advertiser censored* by many shows us that we have lost too much in our country. Simply put, we need to put away the bad guys so kids can be free to be kids and then treat children as the innocent things they are, not as potential sex objects. Sex is not dirty, and the human body is not shameful. It's those who would hurt a child who are dirty and shameful.

Sorry but you are wrong Bestiality IS legal in the NETHERLANDS as I stated as there is NO law against it(http://www.about-beastiality.com/legal-status/main1.html)so videos etc ARE sold LEGALLY there and people who RAPE animals are NOT prosecuted as they committed no crime.It was the same with child *advertiser censored* (there was no law against it)until VERY recently.And in fact up until recent years (pre-internet)the majority of "commerical"child *advertiser censored* indeed came from Europe due to the lax laws.
Also how did this become about how Spain?We are discussing something that happened here in AMERICA & our laws & attitudes.
Its all well & good IN SPAIN but what about here? What about the children raped & abused & exploited here?Its well & good to look to a country like Spain however that helps or solves our problems here how? Instantly overnight things are to change?How?Children are sexualized in this country lets start with that............how do you suggest,using Spains model,we change that?

 

[NewMommy09]

I read in one article on CNN that some of the photo's did show actual genitalia and the girls "looked posed".
However, I find it very common and natural for children to pose for photo's. I think this is a question of who is beholding these pictures. I do NOT think these pictures were meant to be erotic in any form. Now if the picture was of one of the girls with a hand on another girls or her own's private parts, then I could understand.
Also, I wanted to say that the same article also mentioned the parents had said they DO allow their children to run around naked sometimes as they want them to feel comfortable with their bodies. I agree, this is not something all parents agree with, but I do think that it's every parent's choice provided it is in their own home, nobody else is present, etc.

And I also wanted to say, my 5 month old son has the skinniest little bum in the world and I absolutely adore seeing him naked for bathtime. I DO have naked bath pictures, and after birth pictures, and some even show his genitals. However, for the exact reason behind this story, I have not had them printed, and if I ever do, I will print them on either my mom's or my mother in law's picture printing stations at home.

It's a sad world that there are so many child predators and pedophiles out there that normal parents can no longer do normal things without questioning them.

 

[kgeaux]

Clearly LE felt the need to act.........just because a Judge ruled contrary doesnt sway me .
As we all know Judges arent renowned for wisdom or good judgments as many of the cases we discuss here tell us.As I said above THE MOTHERS OWN STATEMENTS ARE QUITE DAMNING if the last linked article is to be believed.She had her children,the oldest being a kindergartner, "wrestling" NAKED and it was photographed! They were also "drawing"?! I thought these pictures were taken immediately AFTER a bath?Who lets their wet kids run around wrestling & drawing etc? Sorry but this is hinky as heck to me.

The kids weren't wet, were they? I thought the parents said the girls were dried with towels, then were laying on the towels hugging each other. (Now being described as "wrestling")

Judges aren't always renowned for good judgement, that's for sure. LE isn't either, though!

I think I'd be highly suspicious if any evidence had been found to suggest these parents were into child *advertiser censored*, but nothing was. There was nothing found in their home, on their computers, etc. to suggest that either the mother or the father had ever had anything at all to do with child *advertiser censored*.

 

[gitana1]

Sorry but you are wrong Bestiality IS legal in the NETHERLANDS as I stated as there is NO law against it(http://www.about-beastiality.com/legal-status/main1.html)so videos etc ARE sold LEGALLY there and people who RAPE animals are NOT prosecuted as they committed no crime.It was the same with child *advertiser censored* (there was no law against it)until VERY recently.And in fact up until recent years (pre-internet)the majority of "commerical"child *advertiser censored* indeed came from Europe due to the lax laws.
Also how did this become about how Spain?We are discussing something that happened here in AMERICA & our laws & attitudes.
Its all well & good IN SPAIN but what about here? What about the children raped & abused & exploited here?Its well & good to look to a country like Spain however that helps or solves our problems here how? Instantly overnight things are to change?How?Children are sexualized in this country lets start with that............how do you suggest,using Spains model,we change that?

No, it IS illegal in Holland. I still have several relatives there so I think I'm kind of in a great position to know what's currently happening there. Take your pick of sites to see proof, below. The older law in Holland only criminalized bestiality when animals were harmed in the process. In my mind, an animal is always harmed when such a thing occurs so I don't know how that law played out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoophilia#Legal_status
http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/0,1518,541437,00.html
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/pets/detail?blogid=48&entry_id=37578
By the way, bestiality is still NOT illegal in several states in the United States! [ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoosexuality_and_the_law[/ame]. Bestiality is illegal in 29 to 31 of our states and is considered only a misdemeanor in many of those. So before we bash those "libertine nuts" in Europe, we need to police our own backyard.

As far as your comment "good for Spain but what about here", basically that we don't have the same culture so how do we protect our kids? Well, I agree with you. We don't have the same kind of society and our kids need protection. So, we need very strict laws. I want a one strike law across the country. Most states refuse to do it citing cost but what is the greater cost? I think the risk of destroying the life one child is a cost we should not bear. I'll pay my taxes to keep those freaks in jail for life!

I also think we do have to be careful and monitor what is happening with kids we run across. I kind of understand how some Walmart employee trained to flag what may be child *advertiser censored* could err on the side of caution. I'd rather have such an employee, who is limited in his training as to how to spot child abuse, report such a thing than not, which could risk letting a child abuser get away with it.

However, I think when it comes to CPS, they need more manpower and more training so they can sift through the reports. This never should have been prosecuted and these kids should never have been taken from home if the facts are as reported. In our country, we need to learn how to balance wanting to protect our children from predators with being so Puritan that we mistake innocent pictures of kids that parents took, wanting to capture a sweet moment, for child *advertiser censored*.

I guess there are no easy solutions to the problem except a bit more common sense, perhaps. It's a mess. But I do know that I would be very careful about taking an innocent picture of my little, naked kid, from this point forward. It's sad, but that's what this story has taught me, if nothing else.

 

[snookie]

How many people have nude pictures of their five-year-old?
I can see taking cute nekkid pics of a toddler -- but older than three? I don't think so.

I totally agree.

Nude baby pics are fine, but no way would I take nude pics of my 5 year old daughter, and then send them off to be developed by a possible pervert freak. I think it takes a really naive parent to do something like that, especially in this day and age.

As you said, once they get about 3 years old it's time to start keeping the clothes on, especially for pictures.

 

[Kreeblim]

This whole thing has made me go back over the 1000's of digi pics I have of my kids. I guess I know what not to send to walmart...

1) Picture of my 3 year old son and 4 year old nephew's nekkid behinds. I went down to change over laundry and when I got back up they were both standing bottomless on a kitchen chair trying to reach the new underoos we picked out that day for bedtime from on top of a kitchen shelf from the Walmart bag. Hulk and Batman.

2) Tons of nekkid backyard baby pool and bath pics. Gramma has a baby pool and we hardly ever remembered to bring swim diapers...the tub pictures were ours. One has my son with a blue bath crayon, and there are blue smears EVERYWHERE on the tub walls but the only blue parts of his body other than his little hands are his nose...and his winky. He's probably a little over a year old and the picture is hysterical with his big grin.

3) My oldest would scream anytime water touched him, so for the first 3 months of his life I bathed with him and breastfed him in the tub. We do have a series of photos where he is wrapped in a towel after his bath and the very first shot shows me holding him completely topless while he is completely nekkid and breastfeeding.

I never even THOUGHT about putting them up publicly, but I also never thought while taking them that'd I'd be looking through my entire library and wondering if any of our pictures could be misinterpretted as child abuse.

 

[mysteriew]

When my DD was young I took some pics of her in the bath. But I tried to make sure that the side of the tub covered most of her up. All the while I was taking pics, I worried about the pics getting out or of someone getting hold of them and publicizing them as child *advertiser censored*. So I never took any of my son.

Now with digital pics I would be even more worried. There is a very fine line between child *advertiser censored* and innocent photos. And that line is mostly the perception of the viewer. So while I may see my child's photo as cute and innocent, someone else could be getting his ..... off. With hackers and phishers and trojans and everything on the net I would be afraid of someone being able to hack my computer and use the photos for something other than what I intended. Not to mention we know who deals in *advertiser censored*. People we know deal in *advertiser censored*, people we don't expect. And the dealing in *advertiser censored* often means they are trading nude photos to get another nude photo.

I understand what Walmart did. They probably have a policy that they don't print nude pics and their employess are probably told that if they see nude children, that they should be reporting it to CPS. And I would hope they would do that. I would be very upset to hear that a Walmart was developing nude pics for my neighborhood pornographer. And it isn't their job to determine who is a pornographer, and who is just taking innocent photos of their kids.

I feel sorry for these parents and I believe they were probably just taking cute innocent photos of their kids. But in this day and age, it is very hard to tell who is taking those cute bath photos just for remembrance and who is taking them for other purposes. Because sometimes it is parents who are taking them for other purposes.

 

[claudicici]

...wow,I do understand what walmart did,but after that it should have been smooth sailing...it's so sad that it took so long too clear these parents

 

[JerseyGirl]

Court: Photos of your naked kids is not a reason for DCS to take your children

Arizona child-welfare workers acted illegally a decade ago when they seized three children they believed were victims of sexual exploitation, the San Francisco-based 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals has ruled.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/new...-reason-az-dcs-take-your-children/1050314001/