Blonde, Sad-Faced Girl

[WildHuncher]

Agreed. The so-so quality of the reproductions makes me hesitant about drawing any conclusions about injuries possibly showing in the photos.

The quality of some of these pictures (but not others) does make looking for injuries problematic. However, it's part of the process of figuring out who is at any risk of being an actual victim. (Even that doesn't mean you don't study all the pictures. It's useful to look at ALL the pictures to get an idea of where, when, and how he might have trolled for victims.)

Lots of these photos are in very public settings where the person was clearly at no risk when the picture was taken. Girls in a crowded nightclub, people in the crowd at a game or concert. That doesn't mean Alcala didn't get one or two alone later, but the odds in any given case aren't that high.

You could make a scale of risk. People in crowded settings where he clearly can't attack them are at essentially no risk. Condition green.

People in urban public settings with no one else around (say, an empty city street) are at some risk. Call it condition yellow. He might attack them but he might also be interrupted at any moment. He pushed Robin Samsoe into his car and drove off with her in one such setting.

People alone with him in a room are at risk, I'd say a higher one. Maybe call that condition orange. Crilley, Wixted, and Parenteau were murdered in their own apartments. He seems to have relied a lot on the thickness of walls and his ability to prevent or stifle screaming with gags or by knocking people out.

People alone with him outdoors away from the city streets are at elevated risk. Condition orange again. Barcomb, Samsoe, and Hover were found outdoors. Monique H was an outdoor victim who lived. He gagged her with a shirt at one point.

We know that not everyone indoors or outdoors alone with him was attacked. That brings us to the presence of injuries.

Injuries on a photo subject are condition red. He has already crossed a line. He's feeling safe enough and mean enough. Worse, having already crossed the line, he's probably thinking he has to finish it with her dead. He's on probation, out on bail, what have you. Tali S survived condition red by pure luck. Somebody saw him hustling her into his place and called the cops. Monique H is the only other condition red survivor of which I'm aware. She apparently pushed exactly the right buttons.

Take a woman named Monique. She testified Alcala picked her up in 1979, when she was 15, and talked her into posing for photos. He took her up into the mountains near Banning and attacked her, stuffing her shirt into her mouth to gag her. He then bit her breast so hard she passed out. When she came to, she was tied up and he was still nearby, crying. She had the presence of mind to try and make him feel better.

"I rolled over and patted him on the arm and asked him if he was OK." Even though he had killed at least four women at that point, he didn't kill her. They got back into his car for the ride out of the mountainous area. Monique used "reverse psychology" to try and put him further at ease. "I said, 'Don't tell anyone what happened (and) could I stay at your house?'" This made him trust her enough to leave her while he went to use a gas-station restroom. She escaped.

http://articles.ocregister.com/2010-03-02/home/24646113_1_penalty-phase-slide-show-rodney-alcala

How many others never hit on exactly the right formula?

There might have been other survivors, yes. Maybe some of them simply never did go to the police for whatever reasons. But the ones with injuries are the ones you worry about.

 

[norest4thewicked]

"But the ones with injuries are the ones you worry about."

But, "injuries" is so subjective. Almost every person who looks at these photos sees something different. At any one time almost everyone has a bruise or a red spot on their bodies. And, bad lighting, shadows and artifacts of a photo make it so that many things "appear to be" something that they aren't. Its almost as if some looking at these photos are wishing so hard to find an injury that they see things that aren't there. I guess there's no real harm in doing that. Except that one person THINKS they see something on a photo that no one else has seen...they really WANT to see something. Then the next person comes along and because of the power of suggestion, that person thinks they see it too. I don't see one person in these photos that has a REAL "injury." The dark haired girl at the window does have a questionable mark on her mouth, but the look in her eyes is what draws her out as a strong possible victim of something. The back bend person is another. I see a person doing a back bend there and the look on the face is questionable. But I've never taken a photo of a person doing a back bend in foliage, so don't know what that would look like. I know you'd have to partially close your eyes because of the foliage. But I see no blood running down the face or anything of that matter.

Just because a person is not smiling, or because they have a red mark somewhere on their body does not mean that they have been beaten up. Just because their hair is messy doesn't mean that they have been roughed up. We know that Alcala was a good looking guy and articulate. He probably had consensual sex with many of these girls. Maybe he liked to photograph them right after they'd had sex. The hair would be messed up in these cases because I doubt Alcala was a gentle lover.

We know that he revived them from a strangling and then strangled them again. I just don't believe that any of these photos (except perhaps the dark haired girl with the fur coat) have had any knowledge of his evil when these photos were taken. I'm not saying that it didn't happen later, but we can't know that by these photos.

In reading about MO's and the psychological reasoning behind types of murders, I believe that the entire death scenario took place during/right after the sex act. I believe that he strangled them while they were most vulnerable and that he might have brought them back several times before the final death, but I can't see in any of these women's faces that they had been strangled and then forced to sit for a photo.

Think about it from a woman's point. (Sorry to the guys reading this but take my word for it.) If a man had just strangled me to the point of unconsciousness and then brought me back, I would be wide eyed, trying to get away by any means. There would be a huge struggle and I would not sit placidly for a photo. No matter what he suggested. He might get a photo of me, but it would be me under a table, trying to get out a door or window or me throwing something at him. You have to put yourself in that position to imagine the state of mind of these women.

We also know he raped at least one victim and did not murder. There has to be more. I suspect (hope I guess) that the dark haired girl with the fur coat was one of those. You can clearly see the redness on her mouth of a gag and the trauma in her eyes. Looking sad can mimic "loaded." Having your hair messed up or a red mark here or there, especially if you've just had some heavy making out or sex, can be normal.

I think just because they were inside somewhere with him taking a picture doesn't mean they were alone. It might look like they were alone, but there could be a dozen other people in the room too at the time of the photo.

Its good to second guess and toss around opinions and ideas, but the bottom line is that we aren't going to be able to know the truth about these photos until people start coming forward or relatives list them as missing. That's why I spend most of my time on this case on the Facebook site, trying to pass the photos around. I've been on Craigslist and MySpace as well. We NEED to get these photos out to the public! Media did a really lame job of doing it and only 1 out of 100 people I've talked to have ever even heard about this case.

That is what is going to help this case - these people, not speculating on a red mark on a person.

Lastly, please know that I'm not singling out anyone in particular because I've seen it from more than one. Instead of speculating, let's get together since we are all interested in this case and let's spend time on actually helping get the word out to the public about these people. Perhaps we could get some posters of the photos and post them in places he lived. Perhaps we could go to local TV stations. I know that's what I plan to do to actually MAKE a difference.

 

[Moggie]

Thank you Wildhuncher and Norest4wicked, really insightfully posts. So if the victim is being photographed in various states of provocative pictures, it really lowers their chance of walking away alive. I should be giving priority to the girls in THOSE pictures. I think spending my time promoting the pictures on facebook and myspace is a lot more productive than looking for clues in the pictures themselves. Thank you for your suggestion's. Sometimes I get bogged down in small details that really don't help and it becomes frustrating.

 

[norest4thewicked]

Yes. I know that some people are interested in crime and sleuthing and are comfortable with just staying on these forums and hypothesizing. And there definitely is a place and a need for that in a lot of cases. But, this case in particular doesn't need that. It's been beaten to death. We need to move on now and if we are REALLY interested in helping find these victims, put ourselves in the position of publicizing these photos in the places where they might be recognized. I would guess that not one person who could help in recognizing these people by knowing them personally is on Websleuths. So lets stop speculating and guessing and do something! I feel that this is the ONLY viable way of helping in this case.

 

[WildHuncher]

Think about it from a woman's point. (Sorry to the guys reading this but take my word for it.) If a man had just strangled me to the point of unconsciousness and then brought me back, I would be wide eyed, trying to get away by any means. There would be a huge struggle and I would not sit placidly for a photo. No matter what he suggested. He might get a photo of me, but it would be me under a table, trying to get out a door or window or me throwing something at him. You have to put yourself in that position to imagine the state of mind of these women.

Monique H's solution requires overcoming all instinct and pretending you're only thinking about the welfare and emotional state of the self-obsessed [insert your own expletive here] who just beat you and choked you out. That's one reason I doubt if too many other people found it. And what worked once on Rodney probably won't work on the next murderous creep, anyway. It was probably a one-shot deal anyway you look at it.

Doesn't mean he couldn't control his victims or get them to pose, though. Any POW since the Korean War will tell you that you can break anybody.

Again, the plea that came with the pictures is to help identify possible victims therein. As explained above, injuries help separate wheat from chaff. Some injuries are clearer than others regarding whether they even exist, and some injuries are more clearly indicative of criminal assault than others. Goes with the territory.

Subjectivity ... it must be a DA's nightmare that there's no such thing as overwhelming evidence. He presents eyewitnesses, expert witnesses, eight by ten glossies, DNA lab results, serological results, a bloody glove, the weapon.

In the jury chambers, it's a Monty Python skit. "'E's just restin'." "No 'e isn't! 'E's DECEASED! 'E's passed this mortal coil and joined the choir invisible!"

I never cease to marvel, but it's just a feature of certain kinds of discusions. Spent enough time on other forums arguing about other things to know to expect it.

 

[Redbird]

I am so glad someone finally said something about how this is going. I think we have to look at the big picture on this. These pictures are at least 31 years old. The girls who were 15 to 30 years old are now 45 to 70 years old. They probably would not be recognizable now. Many of their parents are probably dead. If you were looking at these pictures now and saw someone you worked with then that looked like the picture, your memory would be hazy, you might only remember their first name. If some of these women are victims of the monster, their families, if alive, have had some time to heal. Not all of them would want to open old wounds. After these two new cases, I would seriously doubt they will spend any more taxpayer dollars on more trials.

Evidence for comparison has probably been lost. Many of these women would not want anyone to know they ever posed nude for this creep. Most probably want to completely forget and don't even want to contact LE to identify themselves.

I have tried my best to stay away from morbid curiosity. The most disturbing and sensational pictures are of the hanging person (with 13 pages of comments, mostly about gender) and the girl with the fur collared coat. There are not many comments about trying to find or match these people. As I mentioned, I tried looking through male pictures of unsolved murders and UID's, coroners pictures, etc. and realized the extent of the problem in trying to help. I believe RA killed and posed this person. I looked through hundreds of pictures and came up with nobody close. In looking through these websites so many of them had no picture, no real description, no background information. Very sad to think about, but there are many, and probably somewhere with a very vague description, or skeletal remains description, this person is listed and unidentified. If you do think you have somebody the next step is comparing dental records, DNA or knowing more undisclosed details. Something we can't do. As I mentioned earlier I don't think there is a great interest in opening these old cases. I understand this from LE's viewpoint, I think, but I think the least they could do is organize these photos and let us know which ones have been identified. To get these pictures "out there" I think we need a way to target an older group of people. These pictures would mean nothing to someone in their twenties really.

These pictures are fascinating. I think we are looking into the faces of fear, even terror in many of them. I have been thinking about how once they were trapped in his apartment, they probably realized they were in danger. Professional photographers don't take pictures in ugly, cluttered and dirty rooms. In a lot of them we are probably seeing what someone looks like when their alarm bells are going off.

With the new indictments surely some more people will come forward, but we will probably never know about it. I can't really think of anything more we can do. Sorry for rambling.

 

[norest4thewicked]

"To get these pictures "out there" I think we need a way to target an older group of people. These pictures would mean nothing to someone in their twenties really."

I do agree on most of what you said. I do agree that we could target an older group, but I don't agree that these pictures would mean nothing to someone in their 20's. I have learned a great deal from looking at old family photos when I was growing up and even up to now. Somewhere, there is a sister, daughter, granddaughter who knows what their missing family member looks like from seeing their old photos. I've seen enough of my old relatives that I could pick them out anywhere.

And, perhaps LE isn't that excited about opening up new cases, but if there is even one family out there whose family member was murdered by this monster and we can find that answer for them...I personally want to try. If I have to use my own money, I am going to get these photos out there. I'm definitely committed to doing that and would feel a whole lot better about it than sitting on this forum speculating whether someone had a certain look on their face or whether a line or red mark meant that they were in the clutches of the monster.

And I know there are people out there who just use this (and other forums) to pontificate and argue, (and that's their choice and right), but I am a passionate person if nothing else and I am passionate about this case. I think that the nature of this case makes a lot of people have that morbid curiosity. And, we can make a million comments about any one photo, but in the end, we are back to the same place - grasping at straws.

I am very involved in the Facebook page about this case and spend at least 3 hours daily on getting the photos around to anyone and everyone. That's what I can do.

 

[Redbird]

I do hope you understand that probably most of these women are still alive and are not happy to find their picture "out there," not happy to have to relive a horrible and humiliating ordeal, not happy to be recognized by friends or coworkers, and not happy about having their privacy invaded. I now understand why LE was reluctant to release these photos.

 

[norest4thewicked]

Possibly. But, at the same time, if a woman had known that they had survived a serial killer and their coming forward would help in possibly finding victims, I would hope that at least some would come forward. I don't think LE was reluctant to release these photos for any other reason than to use in a future case with Alcala. Once he was convicted of a couple of cases, the photos came out.

Maybe I'm just a Pollyanna about this. I just have faith enough in at least some of these women to think that they would put their own feelings aside to help finding answers if they could. But, we will never know unless we try.

 

[WildHuncher]

There are classes of individuals (families, victims, L.E.) whose needs matter, but you can't go wrong by pledging your paramount loyalty to whatever it was that happened on the other side of that lens, however elusively, incompletely, and imperfectly represented it may be by the published products we study. All else is agenda, spin, censorship, or self-delusion. Something really happened 30-40 years ago. The preferences of the 21st century were not consulted. First, find the truth.

Passion is a good fuel but a lousy pilot. It's the thing that tells you you've married your hypothesis 'til death do you part and you have to fight for it.

Investigation, done right, is like poker done right. Throw down the bad hands. Unlike in poker, you can pick them up later if they start looking good. (A purist might point out that poker has lots of mental tug-o-war bluffing and trapping aspects, but I'm making an analogy here.) You always have to be asking yourself, "What's the most straightforward interpretation?" Competing interpretations will always abound. Something doesn't have to be a duck just because it looks like a duck, but it probably is.

It's unclear who is served by doing what the LE has asked in releasing these pictures. LE may have since lost enthusiasm for the idea. We're not getting a lot of guidance or feedback. In the end, we each have to make our own call on how much we invest and how we spend the time.

 

[plait]

could she be Judy Cole photograped at a different angle ?

 

[WildHuncher]

could she be Judy Cole photograped at a different angle ?

On the furniture thread we pretty well nailed that she's on the West Coast. Judy Cole is in New York on that New York apartment rug.

 

[Redbird]

If you read through our comments in "Blond haired girl lying on carpet", you will see some of us doubt that Judy Cole ever had an encounter with RA. Her story doesn't add up. She is someone who wrote a book and was able to get on a radio show to plug her book because she had a story about him.

 

[norest4thewicked]

If you read through our comments in "Blond haired girl lying on carpet", you will see some of us doubt that Judy Cole ever had an encounter with RA. Her story doesn't add up. She is someone who wrote a book and was able to get on a radio show to plug her book because she had a story about him.

Agreed! And, it is a photo that pretty much anyone could say was then because it is fuzzy and very hard to see any facial structure. I think she's just after money or whatever.

 

[plait]

I put Judy Cole in the search engine, and came up with Cole's young girl pic. It kind of looks like Cole is wearing a loose version of the necklace on this girl's neck. Also it appears Cole is laying down in the photo of her as a young girl, while this girl appears to be sitting up, and is posing at a different angle.

 

[punklove]

If you look at the full picture, the location of this discoloring is too low to be where a person would be strangled. Or, did you have something else in mind about the dark ring under the necklace?

He often liked to place something heavy over the persons next, perhaps to keep his hands free while doing whatever he was doing - things like a barbell so its possible if that is a bruise and not just lighting that it could be caused from something like that.

 

[Charm3d]

http://kidnappingmurderandmayhem.blogspot.com/2010/05/unsolved-sharron-prior-murder.html
This looks like a match to me. same face nose

 

[Redbird]

http://kidnappingmurderandmayhem.blogspot.com/2010/05/unsolved-sharron-prior-murder.html
This looks like a match to me. same face nose

Sharron Prior was murdered March 29, 1975. RA was incarcerated from October 16, 1974 until June 1977.

 

[Charm3d]

Sharron Prior was murdered March 29, 1975. RA was incarcerated from October 16, 1974 until June 1977.

So glad this creep was out of action during that time. How many others may have died if he wasn't. Shudder to think:furious:

 

[plait]

Could this girl be hitchiker Monique Hoyt ?