Blue Fibers

[Eagle1]

There's a lot of discrepancy about the exact color of the "cotton" fibers. They are sometimes called black, sometimes dark blue.

And the expensive imported black shirt was black wool, not cotton.

SuperDave may indeed be right but first we need to sort out what color the fibers were, once and for all. There was also a cloth in JR's golf bag that the fibers could have come from. Dark blue, I believe. Don't know if it was terry cloth, like his bathrobe which was found on the floor in the den.

Usually, terry cloth doesn't shed, right folks?

 

[PagingDrDetect]

There's a lot of discrepancy about the exact color of the "cotton" fibers. They are sometimes called black, sometimes dark blue.

And the expensive imported black shirt was black wool, not cotton.

SuperDave may indeed be right but first we need to sort out what color the fibers were, once and for all. There was also a cloth in JR's golf bag that the fibers could have come from. Dark blue, I believe. Don't know if it was terry cloth, like his bathrobe which was found on the floor in the den.

Usually, terry cloth doesn't shed, right folks?

There's no fiber discrepancy. In the 2000 interviews it is very clear that they found black fibers that came from the shirt JR wore to the White's that night in the crotch of JBR's panties and apparently on her genitals. Since the R's weren't willing to cough up the shirt for comparison until the 11th hour, LE would not have known where the dark fibers came from and could only speculate. Now that it is known that fibers matching the black shirt JR wore to the White's that night, there is no discrepancy.

Additionally, there is a possibility that there are dark blue fibers that match JR's robe that were found on JBR, but since they didn't say that in the 2000 interviews, I doubt it.

 

[Eagle1]

There's no fiber discrepancy. In the 2000 interviews it is very clear that they found black fibers that came from the shirt JR wore to the White's that night in the crotch of JBR's panties and apparently on her genitals. Since the R's weren't willing to cough up the shirt for comparison until the 11th hour, LE would not have known where the dark fibers came from and could only speculate. Now that it is known that fibers matching the black shirt JR wore to the White's that night, there is no discrepancy.

Additionally, there is a possibility that there are dark blue fibers that match JR's robe that were found on JBR, but since they didn't say that in the 2000 interviews, I doubt it.

Someone may have page numbers from various books, and earlier threads where we've discussed this but don't ask me. (Legally blind in one eye, reading-wise, from diabetes, have to use magnifying glasses in addition to strong reading glasses with the other and don't want to strain it too much. )
But I'm just not buying what somebody said in one interview when it's contradictory to everything which was said before. Not saying BPD would frame the R's after his finally turning in the wool shirt, or it would have gone farther than that. The fibers usually are said to be dark blue, and cotton.
(The black shirt was wool.) Maybe whoever said cotton was wrong too. Just goes to show you how much confusion there is.

 

[PagingDrDetect]

Someone may have page numbers from various books, and earlier threads where we've discussed this but don't ask me. (Legally blind in one eye, reading-wise, from diabetes, have to use magnifying glasses in addition to strong reading glasses with the other and don't want to strain it too much. )
But I'm just not buying what somebody said in one interview when it's contradictory to everything which was said before. Not saying BPD would frame the R's after his finally turning in the wool shirt, or it would have gone farther than that. The fibers usually are said to be dark blue, and cotton.
(The black shirt was wool.) Maybe whoever said cotton was wrong too. Just goes to show you how much confusion there is.

It may be contradictory from what was said before because it's CURRENT. They were unable to do any fiber testing in which a match was made because they had to wait until the Ramsey's coughed up those items requiring testing in order to make a match. Until the proper items of clothing were forked over by the Ramseys LE could only SPECULATE as to what items of clothing they may match.

The whole premise for the 2000 interviews was to question the Ramseys on what NEW and definitive information had been obtained. If that NEW information contradicts previous information that they were only able to SPECULATE about, is it not obvious which information is more accurate?

Additionally, despite knowing that Woody was not going to allow his clients to answer any questions regarding the fibers, they asked those questions anyway solely for the record... they wanted to go on record as to new and definitive information they obtained regarding fibers that had been discovered. The fact that no information was forthcoming about dark blue fibers that may have matched JR's robe or some Ramsey towel or other piece of Ramsey cloth tells me that at the time of the 2000 interviews either

a) there were no dark blue fibers that may have matched some piece of Ramsey cloth, or
b) what was originally thought to be dark blue fibers found on JBR or on the clothing she was wearing are in fact the black fibers which were matched to JR's Israeli made shirt, or
c) the dark blue fibers were matched to some other piece of Ramsey cloth previously, and their existence wasn't mentioned in the 2000 interviews because it had already been established previously that dark blue fibers had definitively matched some other piece of Ramsey cloth (however, since this was never mentioned in previous interviews with the Ramseys I'm inclined to believe that there are no dark blue fibers that match any piece of Ramsey cloth).

IF there are any dark blue fibers that may or may not match JR's robe or some other Ramsey piece of cloth, they are DIFFERENT from the black fibers that match JR's Israeli made shirt as it has been established in the 2000 Ramsey interviews that black fibers matching JR's Israeli made shirt were found on JBR and/or the clothing her body was found wearing. This is a matter of FACT and was explicitly established as a matter of FACT in the 2000 interviews.

 

[BBB167893]

That is the simplest explanation.

 

[JMO8778]

Thanks to you all for clarifying that, you guys are great ! All of you

 

[Eagle1]

That is the simplest explanation.

If I understand PagingDrDetective correctly, changing the evidence opinions around in interviews years later could obviously be just an attempt to fend off some of the long-standing criticizm about bungling, an attempt to cover some of their embarrassment, and defend their only investigating the R's.

Example, I'm thinking of the movie "Stepford Wives" starring, I think, Genevieve Bujold, in the 1970's if I remember that correctly, about the "Mens' Association" forcing husbands to let their wives be killed and replaced by lookalike robots with no PMS or whatever.

Men had to submit or they wouldn't be allowed to make a living. This may have been similar to what the R's were up against for all we know. I don't believe in coincidences or new versions to cover expose's. (Of course I'm not saying they could really replace women or little beauty queens with robots.) But a new movie was made in about 2005 using the very same title, wasn't good at all in my opinion, probably just an attempt to negate the previous one. Speaking of mens' associations, I don't know if that's the famous/infamous worldwide underground "babylon" mentioned in prophecy as destructive and going to be destroyed by God, which maybe started in Iraq when they were building that tower to confront God, and He gave them different languages so they couldn't work together on it. Some may not believe that source as unimpeachable, but I'm contributing fwiw, just so we know as many possible facts as possible. Someone is predicted who's probably a spy because it says nobody can have any secrets from him. The RN brags about monitoring the R's. Just one of many explanations.

Frankly this isn't a simple case and being simple isn't the object! I guess even the FBI gave it up as too complicated.

Evidently this crime was planned for a long time to be confusing, nearly every clue can be countered by some other clue, so far, but eventually the truth may rise to the surface like oil on water. Giving ST credit, whoever planted that snapshot of the open dictionary which hadn't been there when LE first went over the crime scene, by itself proves the R's didn't do it, although they were obviously somehow involved.

 

[BBB167893]

I don't know. Remember, these were the "new" guys.

 

[Solace]

There's no fiber discrepancy. In the 2000 interviews it is very clear that they found black fibers that came from the shirt JR wore to the White's that night in the crotch of JBR's panties and apparently on her genitals. Since the R's weren't willing to cough up the shirt for comparison until the 11th hour, LE would not have known where the dark fibers came from and could only speculate. Now that it is known that fibers matching the black shirt JR wore to the White's that night, there is no discrepancy.

Additionally, there is a possibility that there are dark blue fibers that match JR's robe that were found on JBR, but since they didn't say that in the 2000 interviews, I doubt it.

Paging,

You seem very knowledgeable on this whole thing. I never realized that fibers from John's shirt (from Israel) were found in JB's underwear. Maybe because I was hearing the Ramsey's side of things that there were fibers all over the place.

Paging, what do you think happened. I am very very interested in your opinion. :banghead:

 

[Nuisanceposter]

You can't get anywhere with the IDI's when it comes to the fiber evidence. They resort to saying the Rs lived there, so of course their fibers are all over the crime scene and the body. They don't even account for the fact that the fibers from the clothing in question were not clothes the Rs wore on a regular basis, and not clothes they wore down in the basement. If that doesn't work (and it doesn't with me), they resort to the idea that the fibers were not a match (because "microscopically and chemically consistent with" doesn't mean match to them), or else Levin is lying about finding any fiber evidence at all.

It confounds me how you can present people with such obvious proof that the Rs know more than they will admit and they will still cling to the belief that someone else was the perp.

 

[JMO8778]

Paging, what do you think happened. I am very very interested in your opinion. :banghead:

Me too.If JR was the perp,how is it he forgot he wiped her with that shirt?It seems he wouldn't have dared to hand it over, unless he thought he wiped he very well with something else afterwards and there would be no evidence from it on her, or he didn't realize or was too nervous to think the fibers could be found on her afterwards.
And if PR wiped her with his shirt,why would she do that unless 1-it was handy(JR put it in some dirty laundry close by?),or 2-she was trying to set him up.I wonder as well, which one of them handed over the shirt.

 

[Solace]

Me too.If JR was the perp,how is it he forgot he wiped her with that shirt?It seems he wouldn't have dared to hand it over, unless he thought he wiped he very well with something else afterwards and there would be no evidence from it on her, or he didn't realize or was too nervous to think the fibers could be found on her afterwards.
And if PR wiped her with his shirt,why would she do that unless 1-it was handy(JR put it in some dirty laundry close by?),or 2-she was trying to set him up.I wonder as well, which one of them handed over the shirt.

But maybe he did not wipe her with the shirt, maybe he was on top of her when he was wearing the shirt.

 

[Solace]

You can't get anywhere with the IDI's when it comes to the fiber evidence. They resort to saying the Rs lived there, so of course their fibers are all over the crime scene and the body. They don't even account for the fact that the fibers from the clothing in question were not clothes the Rs wore on a regular basis, and not clothes they wore down in the basement. If that doesn't work (and it doesn't with me), they resort to the idea that the fibers were not a match (because "microscopically and chemically consistent with" doesn't mean match to them), or else Levin is lying about finding any fiber evidence at all.

It confounds me how you can present people with such obvious proof that the Rs know more than they will admit and they will still cling to the belief that someone else was the perp.

Exactly NP. I read last night that the Boulder PD believed there was an incestual relationship going on in the house. Either that is the case or Patsy was giving JB some very intense douches. And it sounds like that after reading what the maid said about Patsy and JB in the bathroom and Patsy screaming and JB crying and screaming.

She told her doctor she was concerned about the bedwetting. Although she says she does not remember this. I bet she was giving her douches and that is why they downplayed the bedwetting. And lets not forget she told her friend that she was concerned about the infections from JB's underwear always being wet (and of course I do not remember the friends name).

One doctor says JB was lying down when she was hit.

This case can drive you crazy. I mean Wecht believes John was with JB and Patsy walked in on them. What, Patsy is in the habit of walking around with a huge flashlight, or she sees the two of them, runs downstairs and gets the flashlight - No, she is going to go crazy right there. So I don't understand that. Now I am leaning again towards Patsy being so angry she slammed her against the bathtub and staged the rest.

But how do John's fibers get in the underwear.

This is not like the MacDonald case where I KNOW FOR 100% that he did it.
And Berke is strange also. He is just incommunicado. I cannot believe his reaction to this. They had to tell him to say nothing, because he says nothing. He is not even asking about JB when he is told that he is going to his friend's house. He has to know what they found because he was up and asked what they found. Even if they don't tell him, he has to listen and realize it is JB, yet he does not act concerned about her. It is a very strange reaction. Although he does say that JB walked into the house that evening.

Anybody know where I can find out where he says that?

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Absolutely, this case will drive you crazy with the loose ends, contradicting stories, and confusing evidence. I've spent the past ten years trying to figure out what exactly happened in that house that night, and I'm not much closer now than I was the first time I ever heard JonBenet's name.

I assume Patsy already had the flashlight in hand. It was her custom to get JB up to use the potty during the night, and I think that's what she was doing, despite her saying she didn't. There was no overhead in JonBenet's room, so my guess is she had the flashlight for the potty trip.

Burke is a really odd one, and I have to wonder if his silence will continue through the years after both of his parents have passed. It could very well. It's possible he doesn't know anything, it's possible he knows everything. You can't tell with him, and I'm left with the impression that perhaps he is almost as much a victim of what happened that night as his baby sister was.

Burke saying JonBenet was awake and walked in the house that night came out during the Atlanta interview in June of 1998. Thomas talks about it on pages 316 - 317 of his book, hb edition.

 

[BBB167893]

You can't get anywhere with the IDI's when it comes to the fiber evidence. They resort to saying the Rs lived there, so of course their fibers are all over the crime scene and the body. They don't even account for the fact that the fibers from the clothing in question were not clothes the Rs wore on a regular basis, and not clothes they wore down in the basement. If that doesn't work (and it doesn't with me), they resort to the idea that the fibers were not a match (because "microscopically and chemically consistent with" doesn't mean match to them), or else Levin is lying about finding any fiber evidence at all.

That bird won't fly with me!

 

[UKGuy]

Some factors contributing towards this case becoming confusing and unsolved, are:

1. The crime scene staging.
2. The Ramsey media spin.
3. The promotion of an Intruder Theory by Lou Smit.
4. The Toilet Rage Theory by Steve Thomas.

These all offer explanations, but are mostly contradictory.

e.g.
In 4. its assumed JonBenet has wet the bed and Patsy has to deal with this, but there is no forensic evidence to demonstrate that JonBenet ever made it to her bed that night? There is forensic evidence supporting the idea that she was awake when its alleged she was asleep in bed! When her corpse was discovered in the wine-cellar she was not even dressed for bed, her bed-clothes were still on her bed, she was still wearing her day-clothes on the upper half of her body, and if her underwear had not been removed its possible she would still have been wearing those, also she was wearing no socks, where did those go?

John's shirt fibers being in JonBenet's underwear and/or crotch are not a smoking-gun, he would never be convicted using this evidence, fibers can never conclusively proof someone did something, but they do link him to the crime scene. And the parents own statements preclude any possibility of fiber transfer prior to or after JonBenet was placed in bed, since they never removed her underwear and in fact forget what color they were!
So like the fibers underneath the duct-tape, which we know is 100% fake, since it was placed on top of the mucus surrounding JonBenet's mouth, and where Patsy claims never to have set foot in the basement, she like John is linked to a crime scene they claim total ignorance of!



.

 

[Seeker]

There's no fiber discrepancy. In the 2000 interviews it is very clear that they found black fibers that came from the shirt JR wore to the White's that night in the crotch of JBR's panties and apparently on her genitals. Since the R's weren't willing to cough up the shirt for comparison until the 11th hour, LE would not have known where the dark fibers came from and could only speculate. Now that it is known that fibers matching the black shirt JR wore to the White's that night, there is no discrepancy.

Additionally, there is a possibility that there are dark blue fibers that match JR's robe that were found on JBR, but since they didn't say that in the 2000 interviews, I doubt it.

Yes, there is still a discrepancy because JR didn't even know which of the 2 black shirts he submitted were the one he wore that night. If they were the same style shirt even the BPD couldn't tell just from pictures.

Someone quoted ST as saying the clothes that were turned over to the BPD about a year later didn't even look worn. They looked new as if the Ramsey's had just purchased them. If that's true (and I know it's speculative on ST part) then there is no way the fibers could have matched at all.

Henry Lee said it best, "consistant with does not mean a match."

 

[UKGuy]

Yes, there is still a discrepancy because JR didn't even know which of the 2 black shirts he submitted were the one he wore that night. If they were the same style shirt even the BPD couldn't tell just from pictures.

Someone quoted ST as saying the clothes that were turned over to the BPD about a year later didn't even look worn. They looked new as if the Ramsey's had just purchased them. If that's true (and I know it's speculative on ST part) then there is no way the fibers could have matched at all.

Henry Lee said it best, "consistant with does not mean a match."

Seeker,

Interesting post. I always liked Henry Lee's riced cooked analogy.

But the fibers from JonBenet are alleged to be black/blue and woolen?

These can be matched with Israeli manufacturer via coloring agents used, and any other spectographic analysis they want to fling at it.

I guess this will be why John offered two shirts, he knew it could sow the seeds of doubt in any court room, but any fibers found on JonBenet that originate from a woolen shirt made in Israel, even its only consistent with, is good enough for me to link him to the crime-scene!

What are the odds of a psychopathic pedophile donning an expensive black woolen shirt, made in Israel, prior to abducting and sexually assaulting JonBenet, might happen in the Silence of The Lambs I guess?


.

 

[Seeker]

I've never heard, or read that the fibers found were wool, synthetic, or cotton. Just that they were dark.

There were dark blue, black, red, fibers found but the types of those fibers has never been stated unless you have something I missed?

BTW does anyone know what that "well dressed black intruder" wore in Atlanta when he "tied" JR shut in the bathroom? LOL!

Yeah, like bathroom doors don't open INWARD!

Just an aside....I looked at where my wool skirt was made and it was made right here in the US. I suppose with the way clothes are mass produced that my wool skirt could easily have jackets, or sweaters made from the same bolt, but not necessarily sent to the same store for sale at the same price.

 

[JMO8778]

But maybe he did not wipe her with the shirt, maybe he was on top of her when he was wearing the shirt.

That sounds more likely.I just wonder why everyone keeps saying she was wiped with the shirt.