Bosma Murder Trial 05.10.16 - Midweek Discussion

[Deleted member 102539]

"Wrong"? Or are things put out there strategically for the purpose of an investigation?

As for the third person. It's a feeling. No more then that. You don't have to agree with it. Some others here think the same. Perhaps they can enlighten you on their thoughts.

The "3rd person" is sometimes again upcoming as a "necessary" detail when developing the story. Perhaps it's your feeling as it's mine. For example: IF poor TB was alive/unharmed for ca 20 min. after beginning the test drive then my question would be how did DM/MS explain the fact to TB that there was a Yukon at Tim's neighbour farmland without a person in it?
DM had claimed their 3rd man (the driver who brought them to the Ancaster address) had gone to Tim Hortons.
For Tim to imagine either there was no Yukon at the farmland or there was a Yukon with a driver.
IF there was a Yukon without a 3rd person Tim would have noticed a big lie already a few minutes after the start of the test drive.
From this point of time Tim would have known: the test drivers were up to no good.
I can't imagine a struggle which would have lasted from this point of time to the Brantford area or Bobcat area 20 min. later IF poor Tim got shot only then and there.
A driver at the steering wheel of Tim's truck (DM) and an unharmed truck owner (fallen into panic and fury) besides him on the passenger seat - how could that have lasted for 20 minutes if there was no "help" by another person (MS)? If there was no 3rd person MS was driving the Yukon and couldn't assist his "boss in crime".

Well, I have to learn: there is NO 3rd person in the play. For that the very sad and evil story has to be another version which I don't know.

 

[Typhoo1961]

If anyone has a copy of Martha Stewart's magazine article "Working With Smaller Spaces", please forward it to Dellen.
I'm sure he would appreciate it about now.

That is a good one. Maybe we can send it along with a few packages of pasta seeing as how he claimed his dad made him eat it unrestricted which led to DM's early weight problem.

Funny how DM blamed everyone else for his problems instead of looking in the mirror himself.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

One thing that still makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up.....DM and MS clearly spent some time together, presumably the two of them, alone, going over a detailed plan about what was to happen on the test drives. Murder, incineration, disappeared with out a trace. I find it hard to comprehend that.

They committed the murder—widely characterized at the time as "the crime of the century"[2]—as a demonstration of their perceived intellectual superiority, which, they thought, rendered them capable of carrying out a "perfect crime", and absolved them of responsibility for their actions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_and_Loeb

ABro's reference long time ago.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I've never posted on here but have been a long time reader since Tim was reported missing. First I want to say that there's lots of excellent insight on here by everyone so a job well done.

Anyways I was reading old news articles and looking back at this quote from Millard's old lawyer is interesting to me now that Millard has Pillay and won't call any evidence. http://www.torontosun.com/2013/05/23/killer-video-for-bosma-accused

It's fascinating to look back on that from 2013 to now as we watch the trial unfold. I hope tomorrow we can start getting closer to the truth but who knows how much of it will truly be honest.

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/05/23/killer-video-for-bosma-accused

Killing a successful happy father is like killing everything they (DM/MS) knew they could never be.

So aptly said by a commenter.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I wish there was a way to recall all the posters that defended DM over the years and ask them what they think now.

How to say it? I am verrry disappointed with his true character and the fact that he, despite intelligence and much better future prospects than anyone from a less affluent family found it "necessary" to steal and even commit murder. That's my feeling: disappointed and horrified. For some longer time I was hoping it could not be. But it could and in what a verrry evil way. He deserves to have nothing left but a prison cell.

 

[jash]

<snipped>
I agree for the most part but I think CN initiated the drug pickup as she didn't want the drugs to taint DM'S character.
IMO, I don't think MS was expecting the toolbox at all, that CN also orchestrated that as well. She knew dang well what was going on! I don't believe she didn't know what was in that box! I'm sure she didn't want the gun to taint DM'S character!

All MOO and JMO

IMO, if CN was the one who initiated the drug transfer, MM would have testified to that. Instead, MM said it was her idea.

Meneses agreed Tuesday that it was her idea to have the drugs — which was more than a pound of weed, court heard — brought to them. She said she wanted to smoke it.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/tim-bosma-meneses-day-three-1.3553484

 

[andreww]

Ugh, this is so tough. I really admire women who are confident and highly sexual people but I always feel like there is a fine line between confident and self conscious/depreciating. IMO. This is probably going to receive a lot of flack. I'm no prude but I could not volunteer details on my sex life in front of my mom, certainly without blushing. You would have to pry that out of me with a crow bar. To me, this proves that it 1) was a lie and 2) for shock value. It's all very distracting from the main story and attention seeking that deserves some shaming, *advertiser censored* or otherwise. IMO.

I agree, it's a lie and it worked perfectly. As you might have noticed, after she dropped that detail, none of the lawyer really pressed her for further details of that trip. It's a tool, similar to the tool that John & Patsy Ramsey used when they said Jonbenet and themselves were asleep all night. They don't have to manufacture, memorize and coordinate that story amongst the three survivors. I'm sure CNs attorney made her very aware that by saying she was engaged in sexual activity, further questioning would be taboo and certainly avoided.

 

[Ontario Mom]

I've been too busy to really follow the mid-week discussion but I'm a little surprised the "3rd suspect" discussion has come back up after all this time. For me, what really ruled that possibility out was hearing testimony and evidence presented, and just the overall exhaustive effort every person attached to this case spent on making sure all i's were dotted and t's were crossed.

The only reason LE ever had to assume a 3rd person was involved, was because DM lied and said their friend dropped them off & went to Tim Hortons to wait. That's it. There was never any evidence uncovered that backed this up. No cell phone data from a 3rd person's phone pinging in the same places DM and MS's phones were, no witness testimony, no fingerprints, no texts to or from anyone - nothing. After all the hours LE and the experts put into this case, and all the evidence they DID come up with, there was absolutely nothing uncovered to reveal a 3rd person. So, that settled it for me, once and for all.

moo.

 

[ABro]

I agree, it's a lie and it worked perfectly. As you might have noticed, after she dropped that detail, none of the lawyer really pressed her for further details of that trip. It's a tool, similar to the tool that John & Patsy Ramsey used when they said Jonbenet and themselves were asleep all night. They don't have to manufacture, memorize and coordinate that story amongst the three survivors. I'm sure CNs attorney made her very aware that by saying she was engaged in sexual activity, further questioning would be taboo and certainly avoided.

This is not the case. She was extensively grilled on the calls/texts from her phone during the trip and how that would be possible if she had her head in DM's lap for the entire duration of the 45-minute journey. The judge even cut off some questions about the mechanics of the situation which he found were -- I believe the word he used was -- unnecessary. Not to mention Dungey telling Christina the word she was looking for was fellatio.

 

[andreww]

I've been too busy to really follow the mid-week discussion but I'm a little surprised the "3rd suspect" discussion has come back up after all this time. For me, what really ruled that possibility out was hearing testimony and evidence presented, and just the overall exhaustive effort every person attached to this case spent on making sure all i's were dotted and t's were crossed.

The only reason LE ever had to assume a 3rd person was involved, was because DM lied and said their friend dropped them off & went to Tim Hortons to wait. That's it. There was never any evidence uncovered that backed this up. No cell phone data from a 3rd person's phone pinging in the same places DM and MS's phones were, no witness testimony, no fingerprints, no texts to or from anyone - nothing. After all the hours LE and the experts put into this case, and all the evidence they DID come up with, there was absolutely nothing uncovered to reveal a 3rd person. So, that settled it for me, once and for all.

moo.

Exactly that. And i'm sure every one of Dell's pals whereabouts were tracked for that night just for good measure.

 

[andreww]

This is not the case. She was extensively grilled on the calls/texts from her phone during the trip and how that would be possible if she had her head in DM's lap for the entire duration of the 45-minute journey. The judge even cut off some questions about the mechanics of the situation which he found were -- I believe the word he used was -- unnecessary. Not to mention Dungey telling Christina the word she was looking for was fellatio.

You just proved my point. The fact that the judge cut off questions says it all. What I'm getting at is that she did NOT have to relate, or even attempt to relate, the contents of 45 minutes worth of conversation. When her own trial comes about, she'll say the exact same thing. No memory lapses or conflicting stories to worry about. She might have well been sleeping. Brilliant.

 

[CJPRINCESS]

IMO, if CN was the one who initiated the drug transfer, MM would have testified to that. Instead, MM said it was her idea.


http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/tim-bosma-meneses-day-three-1.3553484

I guess so but also possible that CN called MS first to initiate the move? Maybe MS didn't want the drugs and MM talked him into taking them? He knew what was going down, would he really want a lb of weed hanging around?

CN was worried about drugs tainting DM's character (her own testimony). If CN didn't testify to that, I would have continued to believe that MS asked for them all on his own.

 

[ellie b]

" If the mission is successful, then it will be an all nighter"..................this statement absolutely seals it for me......premeditated murder.

MOO

 

[ILoveDateline]

This is not the case. She was extensively grilled on the calls/texts from her phone during the trip and how that would be possible if she had her head in DM's lap for the entire duration of the 45-minute journey. The judge even cut off some questions about the mechanics of the situation which he found were -- I believe the word he used was -- unnecessary. Not to mention Dungey telling Christina the word she was looking for was fellatio.

Yeah, I think the judge cut it off too short but hey, it's his right to do so. It doesn't really matter because I believe most people agree it was a lie and excuse to cover up what was actually said on the ride. IMO. It was smart. I was so hoping someone would have asked if one BJ and intercourse twice was normal for them and if DM said he might be going away for a while and this was a sailor send off. Again, doesn't really matter but the lie was obvious and the effect would have been the same if she divulged the reason for no conversation via questioning, "you didn't talk? I find that hard to believe" CN: "we were busy." "busy with what?... " she blurted it out pretty quick. IMO.

The original theme to this line of posting was about the *advertiser censored* shaming of CN and how it's distracting from the trial. I guess I've totally fallen victim to this now too.

 

[CJPRINCESS]

The "3rd person" is sometimes again upcoming as a "necessary" detail when developing the story. Perhaps it's your feeling as it's mine. For example: IF poor TB was alive/unharmed for ca 20 min. after beginning the test drive then my question would be how did DM/MS explain the fact to TB that there was a Yukon at Tim's neighbour farmland without a person in it?
DM had claimed their 3rd man (the driver who brought them to the Ancaster address) had gone to Tim Hortons.
For Tim to imagine either there was no Yukon at the farmland or there was a Yukon with a driver.
IF there was a Yukon without a 3rd person Tim would have noticed a big lie already a few minutes after the start of the test drive.
From this point of time Tim would have known: the test drivers were up to no good.
I can't imagine a struggle which would have lasted from this point of time to the Brantford area or Bobcat area 20 min. later IF poor Tim got shot only then and there.
A driver at the steering wheel of Tim's truck (DM) and an unharmed truck owner (fallen into panic and fury) besides him on the passenger seat - how could that have lasted for 20 minutes if there was no "help" by another person (MS)? If there was no 3rd person MS was driving the Yukon and couldn't assist his "boss in crime".

Well, I have to learn: there is NO 3rd person in the play. For that the very sad and evil story has to be another version which I don't know.

But if TB was duct taped right after pulling out of the drive way (MS asked for tape) then the struggle (for TB) could last as long as the tape held. IMO, the 3rd person was a roll of duct tape.

 

[JuneBug67]

I was my impression that the third person theory grew from the early evidence that the Yukon pulled out behind the Ram and followed it. The assumption at the time was presumably that both accused remained in the Ram. I don't think the SB statement about Timmy's was the main driver of the theory for LE. Absent evidence of both vehicles early in the sequence of events my guess is that they would not have been so definitive about a third suspect.

 

[ILoveDateline]

I guess so but also possible that CN called MS first to initiate the move? Maybe MS didn't want the drugs and MM talked him into taking them? He knew what was going down, would he really want a lb of weed hanging around?

CN was worried about drugs tainting DM's character (her own testimony). If CN didn't testify to that, I would have continued to believe that MS asked for them all on his own.

CNs testimony was full of inconsistencies. IMO. I hardly doubt she was worried about DMs Rep being tarnished by pot. There was a lot of cover up to be done. When she answered that it was to cover up the real meaning behind one of her or his notes. JMO.

MM and MS wanted the drugs and it was a bonus for DM and CN, and AM for that matter, to have them out of the house. JMO.

 

[CJPRINCESS]

I know that police had MS under surveillance. Does anyone know the dates of the surveillance? Was it 24 hr. surveillance?

He must have managed to escape them when he went to bury the gun? What a shame.

Or maybe he buried it before surveillance began?


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If I remember correctly, surveillance started on the 14th. So MS had a few days to bury the gun before then. There was also no surveillance for 2 days during the wedding (We didn't get an explaination for that). From what I understood from LE testimony, the surveillance was 24/7.

 

[Arnie M]

" If the mission is successful, then it will be an all nighter"..................this statement absolutely seals it for me......premeditated murder.

MOO

Exactly .... if they just wanted to seize and steal TB's truck from him they could have done that and had it hidden at the farm or hangar before 11:00 pm . And even if they planned to shoot him on the side of the road it would only add 3 seconds to the timeline. The (planned) incineration was what made it an all-nighter

 

[andreww]

I was my impression that the third person theory grew from the early evidence that the Yukon pulled out behind the Ram and followed it. The assumption at the time was presumably that both accused remained in the Ram. I don't think the SB statement about Timmy's was the main driver of the theory for LE. Absent evidence of both vehicles early in the sequence of events my guess is that they would not have been so definitive about a third suspect.

I disagree with you. SB's story, plus the fact that Millard and Smich showed up without a vehicle would be a strong indication that there had beed a third person. Until the witness came forward to state the Yukon was parked in the vacant lot, why would LE believe anything else?