CA - 14 killed in San Bernardino mass shooting, 2 Dec 2015 #4

[BarryW]

Wow, I leave for a few hours and I'm WAY behind in my reading. And, I have to run out again now.

Later!

Just a thought...this site is full of smart people, but even within this forum there are tons of suggested solutions, or shaking heads wondering if anything can help, and everywhere in between. I do not pretend to know the answer. Nor is the answer a THING. It is many things over many years, done consistently that might get the change that is needed. But the time to be soft has passed, it is actually way back in the rear view mirror, just that many didn't notice it. HARD policy, HARD decisions, PC out the window please. Personally I'm sick of all of the political rhetoric that allowed this to happen. I fear that if the governments don't get a grip soon, and start a real path, then "the people" will find a way to do it themselves. Chaos folks, that is what is in the future if this is not handled properly now. The time to dither has gone.

 

[LaborDayRN]

Pretended or kept quiet so as not to put others in danger?

Being right is for children being a leader is for those who are wise in their words and actions.


imo

Maybe it's just me, but I always hope our leaders will get things right.........And I'm far from a child.

 

[Gigi-G]

Not sure if this was posted...

Pipe bombs were left at the center supposedly to blow up first responders to the shooting scene.

I wonder if they also found explosives at the condo??? If so that proved the mother was in on it.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/12/0...re-set-to-kill-first-repsonders/?intcmp=hpbt3

Yes they did find pipes at the home. I'm sure it was posted earlier.

 

[Damarna]

BREAKING: A Twin Cities man identified as one of the Islamic State group's most active terror recruiters has surrendered to Somali government authorities in Mogadishu, the U.S. Dept. of State says.

(Sent from KSTP)
http://kstp.com/news/stories/S3984569.shtml?cat=1

A Twin Cities man identified as one of ISIS' most active terror recruiters - a former student at Roosevelt High School in Minneapolis - has surrendered to Somali government authorities in Mogadishu, according to the U.S. Department of State.

Mohamed Abdullahi Hassan, also known as "Miski," surrendered Nov. 6 in Somalia's capital city.

"Prior to his surrender, Hassan reportedly was in contact via social media with the San Bernardino, California, couple who was killed by police after they allegedly shot and killed 14 people at a holiday party of government workers last week. More than 20 other people were wounded in that attack."

 

[Sonya610]

Controlling access to weapons isn't going to help, metal detectors aren't going to help, "If you see something say something" isn't going to help, keeping immigrants and refugees isn't going to help.

And dropping bombs on their families is not going to help.

I'm not hopeless though. There has to be something, right?

How about we STOP the flow of Muslims into Western countries until we figure out a solution.

If it makes the bleeding hearts feel any better look at it this way, things are going to get ugly and there will be a LOT of hurt feelings and mean words as a result, we can spare them from the horrible "hate speech, racism and bias".

I will say that many of the Muslims I have met in the states were completely assimilated, while the parents may have an accent the children didn't and since they wore western attire no one would ever know they were even from the ME.

 

[bluesneakers]

How about we STOP the flow of Muslims into Western countries until we figure out a solution.

First of all I don't think it's possible because a person could just lie, and secondly I think that goes against what America is. Discriminating based on religion? That's such an important value it's #1 on our Constitution. If we decided to do that I would say we have to say NO ONE can come in no matter what their religion. But it's impossible, unrealistic, and IMO will never happen. Also remember the terrorist in San Bernardino was American by birth.

JMO etc.

 

[Gigi-G]

This is a thread about Muslim terrorists. Right? Why are some posts still trying to make this about "white mass shooters"?

Geez. It's insulting and hurtful, IMO, to the victims and their families to make this about "white mass shooters", not MUSLIM EXTREMIST TERRORISTS because they are 2 separate issues!

It's like me going on a child molestation case thread and saying, "Well, you know...99 percent of gang bangers in Chicago that kill each other are black".

Totally. Different. Issue.

This wasn't a "mass shooting"....It was Muslim Terrorists. This wasn't about guns, it was about a sick ideology that allows for people to believe they can murder "infidels" at will because we don't agree with their sick and perverted extremism.

They had bombs too, FGS. In the UK, they used knives. Are we going to call for knife and pipe control soon?

Okay, giving myself a self imposed timeout. :seeya:

We have knife control here in UK. As well as Gun control. Any knife on you in yr car. About your person can get you arrested. Any knife. Longer than 4 inches can get you locked up minimum 5 years. No knives can be sold to under 21's. Photographic I'D must be presented with age declaration I.E Drivers license.
Here you do NOT have the right to bear Arms. To own a gun you have to apply for a license from the L.E. If you have or had a conviction they can refuse. Mental health issues they can refuse. Violence n Drugs offences they can refuse. All Guns must be registered. And locked away with ammo in a safe lockable container. No one but owner has permission to use that/those guns. Anyone caught can be prosecuted.
Bit diff from USA here.
Also we have air rifles? Pellet guns? Because the gas powered ones can really maim a target. There's even discussion to get these the same legislation. Cuz if yr 18 with picture I'D you can purchase them anywhere.

 

[BarryW]

How about we STOP the flow of Muslims into Western countries until we figure out a solution.

If it makes the bleeding hearts feel any better look at it this way, things are going to get ugly and there will be a LOT of hurt feelings and mean words as a result, we can spare them from the horrible "hate speech, racism and bias".

That's exactly what I said, probably way back in thread #2. We need to get a handle on who is here now, and how to deal with them. Processing refugees needs to be done thoroughly, and that takes time. Use the time right now to deal with where we are, then deal with the next step when there is confidence that we are not drowning in the deep waters.

edited to add, I'm in Canada, but we have many of the same issues, and as our countries share such a long border we have to agree on things that have to do with national safety.

 

[Foxfire]

Quote Originally Posted by Jade View Post
Thank god we have a level headed President and advisers who know better than to further inflame the situation.

POTUS and admin know more and do more than what is in the news.

Trump et al should wait until they are in office before spouting off. Talking big is easy when you are not responsible for making the decisions.

If candidates are not big enough people to stay silent and wholeheartedly support our country in a time of shock and grief they have no business in office. The victims haven’t been buried yet and they are using the tragedy as an excuse to enhance their campaigns risking our country's safety.
IMO

'If POTUS had attended his daily security briefings, he would have known that ISIS wasn't the JV team'..
"Silence and misinformation is the radical islamic jihadist's most Lethal Weapon, imo'..

Not sure if this was posted...

Pipe bombs were left at the center supposedly to blow up first responders to the shooting scene.

I wonder if they also found explosives at the condo??? If so that proved the mother was in on it.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/12/0...re-set-to-kill-first-repsonders/?intcmp=hpbt3

<BBM for Focus>

Just saw that report on the news, Sonya610. Thanx for sharing..
'The pipe bombs being left at the shooting scene to blow up first responders was not only meant to increase the body count in the San Bernardino terrorist attack. It is an obvious indication that there are more terrorist attacks planned and scheduled for the future..imo

 

[Gigi-G]

From the New York Times today:

BREAKING NEWS The couple in the San Bernardino rampage had long been radicalized, and practiced at a target range, the F.B.I. said

Monday, December 7, 2015 3:31 PM EST

Both the assailants in the deadly attack in San Bernardino, Calif., that killed 14 people last week had been radicalized for a long time and had been practicing their aim at a target range just days before their murder spree, the Federal Bureau of Investigation said Monday.

Read more »

Hence the hired SUV.

 

[bluesneakers]

BREAKING: A Twin Cities man identified as one of the Islamic State group's most active terror recruiters has surrendered to Somali government authorities in Mogadishu, the U.S. Dept. of State says.

(Sent from KSTP)
http://kstp.com/news/stories/S3984569.shtml?cat=1

A Twin Cities man identified as one of ISIS' most active terror recruiters - a former student at Roosevelt High School in Minneapolis - has surrendered to Somali government authorities in Mogadishu, according to the U.S. Department of State.

Mohamed Abdullahi Hassan, also known as "Miski," surrendered Nov. 6 in Somalia's capital city.

"Prior to his surrender, Hassan reportedly was in contact via social media with the San Bernardino, California, couple who was killed by police after they allegedly shot and killed 14 people at a holiday party of government workers last week. More than 20 other people were wounded in that attack."

Can you believe it?! Damn. I wonder who recruited him.

I hope he has the names and addresses of all his friends ready to hand over.

Damn.

 

[Madeleine74]

Point of clarification and it's an important one:

I listened to a radio show out of the Bay Area (KGO) today and they had on the air for 2 hours a noted Muslim scholar...i.e an expert on the faith and the Quran.

He emphatically said (over and over, essentially) all these terrorists are NOT practicing the principles of Muslim as written in the Quran and as observed by real Muslims worldwide. The Quran is very clear on killing: killing one innocent person is the same as killing all people and it is not allowed--it is absolutely forbidden. It is an abomination, a sin.

He and other Muslim leaders have spoken out against every one of these terrorist acts. These terrorists may think and call themselves 'Muslims,' but what they are practicing and what they are doing is not the Muslim religion. Let me repeat for the hard of understanding: this is not about the religion, this is about a bunch of goons/monsters who are using the name of this religion but are not really practicing it. Even Obama pointed this out in his speech, btw.

This expert also mentioned a download to a free copy of the Quran since people were asking to look things up.

 

[Boytwnmom]

is recent. I grew up in the 70's and my first job was for a Muslim family business. They had a huge extended family and family network and no one wore conservative dress. in fact, they were distinctly fashionable. I remember being struck by how they traveled to the "city" to get department store cosmetics, Borghese. In our small town Cover Girl was considered top of the line.

This was also true in the Middle East. Here's an interesting retrospective of Middle East countries in the 60's and 70's. http://www.albawaba.com/slideshow/retro-mini-fashion-middle-east--514288

Over the years I've known people from Iran, Pakistan, Egypt, Lebanon, and Syria. None of the Muslims I knew wore conservative dress in the sense of women being covered in other than normal and fashionable clothing. Islam has been moving toward a more and more conservative mandate since those years. Along with conservative dress comes more repression, for women and girls particularly. I find it very hard to be supportive of this movement in any way.

To illustrate:

Female students in Iran in the early 1970's


Females marching to compel the government to arrest improperly veiled women 2014



Is there really no difference that we are allowed to take note of?

The way you've described them they sound like the Muslims I've known. My guess is they didn't speak to anyone because they didn't know anyone there, maybe they were afraid of what people might say, and maybe they were being extra cautious because people were staring at them.

Why would the iPhones be weird?

 

[Sonya610]

First of all I don't think it's possible because a person could just lie, and secondly I think that goes against what America is.

American Citizens decide what America is.

The US has immigration quotas by country so instead we could just change the quotas for specific countries to zero.

Easy peasy.

 

[MHOrgel]

The body looks female to me. Could be male but the fat distribution on the legs/butt looks female.

Here is a link to an image from MSM: http://img.thesun.co.uk/aidemitlum/archive/02588/San_Bernardino_str_2588896a.jpg

She looks well above 90 lbs

 

[Boytwnmom]

fad, a la Duggars. Part of the whole homeschooling, home churching, no worldly influences, general kooky stuff. I find it scary and have followed stories of some kids, see Penningtons as an example, escaping and the problems they've had as they try to deal with the outside world and practical things like having no birth certificates. While kooky, I don't consider them dangerous to society while I do find them abusive to their children. They are small in numbers and mainstream Christianity does not advocate this kind of separation which makes sense as the historical Jesus was pretty down and dirty with the people.

Also many conservative Jewish communities, see Lakewood, Borough Park, Kiryas Joel and so on. These groups have always been this way and so it's not as new a thing. And there are sometimes issues that arise. But Jews don't want converts and they're not looking to impose Jewish law on non-Jews.

I acknowledge there's all kinds of groups with all kinds of oddities that I want nothing to do with. I don't want any religion in my government. But I can't dismiss Islam as I dismiss these other groups. Not based on bigotry, based on reality.

It was last January, after Charlie Hebdo that I started researching and learning. What I have learned has caused me to treat Islam differently in my thought process.Until I did research I thought treating Islam differently was crazy. Now I have a very different idea of what is crazy.

This is what I wrote last January when I first came around to this:

As I start to research this, all of this-beliefs, how isolated are the radicals, how well do the immigrants assimilate, etc., I am frankly astonished by a lot of what I find. Things that are simply ignored by the media and politicians. Is it political correctness? I don't know, but we need to start dealing with reality. We cannot ignore this any longer. From what I read, the current generation being raised is the most radical and these are people being raised in our western countries. And, for the record, Islam, it doesn't mean peace, it means "submission".

In the UK, Islam is projected to be the dominant religion within the next 50 years. The Muslim Brotherhood has funded a majority of the mosques in the west. This includes the US. See the stats below which show the number of mosques that have texts advocating violence. The Muslim Brotherhood is a terrorist organization. This was all discussed in a 1991 memo, 1991! http://www.clarionproject.org/analys...-mosques-west#

A 1991 U.S. Muslim Brotherhood memo discusses how the group established a network of front organizations in America for “unifying and directing Muslims’ efforts” under an “an effective and a stable Islamic Movement led by the Muslim Brotherhood.”..The struggle that followed is encapsulated in this 2004 Chicago Tribune story about Islamists taking control of the Mosque Foundation in Bridgeview, Illinois. A 2003 St. Petersburg Times article also reports on the Islamist challenges for the leaderships of mosques in Florida, California, Illinois, Texas and Arizona.

The Brotherhood’s purpose, as stated in the 1991 memo, is to wage “a kind of grand jihad, in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and ‘sabotaging’ its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers…”
This isn't about not liking Muslims or being an Islamaphobe. But it is about education. I feel like I am almost completely ignorant about all this. I thought only fringe kooks wooried about "the Muslims". There's a prominant Imam in the UK who I just learned about-Anjem Choudary. Read about him-he's all over the media, Twitter etc, no attempt to hide his beliefs which include (all from his Twitter stream): (Oh, and he wrote an Op-ed for USA Today this past week.)

In the war between the camp of Islam & that of Kufr there can only be one eventual victor. Allah has promised victory to the true believers!
The solution for the problems in France is to bring back Shari'ah, under which Muslims, Christians & Jews lived peacefully for over 800 yrs!
Allah created our Eyes to see, our Ears to hear & our Tongue to speak so there is nothing called freedom of Sight or of Hearing or of Speech
The Messenger Muhammad (saw) said: "The day of judgement will not come until a group from my Unmah conquer Rome!"
If Muslims in Europe called for Islam to be the law & order shallow minded people would soon forget the burqa, minaret & halal food
We must not feel any resistance or feel bad in any way when implementing the penal code of Islam; like for eg cutting the hand of the thief
There is no ruling in Islam which disagrees with the nature of humans from men being allowed 4 wives to removing regimes to impose Shari'ah!
The polling results I've been reading are a huge surprise to me. And this is what people will admit. I assume at least some people want to hide their feelings.
Pew Research (2007): 26% of younger Muslims in America believe suicide bombings are justified.
35% of young Muslims in Britain believe suicide bombings are justified (24% overall).
42% of young Muslims in France believe suicide bombings are justified (35% overall).
22% of young Muslims in Germany believe suicide bombings are justified.(13% overall).
29% of young Muslims in Spain believe suicide bombings are justified.(25% overall).
http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/mu...ns.pdf#page=60
Wenzel Strategies (2012): 58% of Muslim-Americans believe criticism of Islam or Muhammad is not protected free speech under the First Amendment.
45% believe mockers of Islam should face criminal charges (38% said they should not).
12% of Muslim-Americans believe blaspheming Islam should be punishable by death.
43% of Muslim-Americans believe people of other faiths have no right to evangelize Muslims.
32% of Muslims in America believe that Sharia should be the supreme law of the land.
http://www.andrewbostom.org/blog/201...of-expression/
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2012...s-believe.html
NOP Research: 62% of British Muslims do not believe in the protection of free speech;
Only 3% adopt a "consistently pro-freedom of speech line"
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...ate=2011-04-06
http://www.webcitation.org/5xkMGAEvY
Pew Global (2006): Only 7% of British Muslims think of themselves as British first (81% say 'Muslim' rather than 'Briton')
http://pewglobal.org/reports/pdf/254.pdf
Pew Research (2011): 49% of Muslim-Americans say they are "Muslim first" (26% American first)
http://www.people-press.org/2011/08/...for-extremism/
Pew Research (2013): Only 57% of Muslims worldwide disapprove of al-Qaeda. Only 51% disapprove of the Taliban. 13% support both groups and 1 in 4 refuse to say.
http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/09/10/...remist-groups/
http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/09/10/...remist-groups/
MacDonald Laurier Institute: 62% of Muslims want Sharia in Canada (15% say make it mandatory)
http://www.torontosun.com/2011/11/01...riah-in-canada
http://www.macdonaldlaurier.ca/much-...ion-in-canada/
CM Poll: 40% of British Muslims want Sharia in the UK
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...law-in-UK.html
NOP Research: 78% of British Muslims support punishing the publishers of Muhammad cartoons;
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...ate=2011-04-06
http://www.webcitation.org/5xkMGAEvY
And what are Muslims in the US being taught?

Terrorism Research Institute Study: 51% of mosques in the U.S. have texts on site rated as severely advocating violence; 30% have texts rated as moderately advocating violence; and 19% have no violent texts at all.
http://www.terrorismanalysts.com/pt/...ue-survey/html
I found all this very eye-opening. I have no idea what to do about it. There's alot I don't know. But I am going to start learning. I have children and thus a responsibility to ensure the type of country I am leaving to them is the same as I the one I safely enjoyed. I do feel all our western countries need to band together and address this.

I worked with three women (two were sisters) who were part of a Christian doomsday cult (stockpiling weapons and food and buying land and homes up in the Sierras.) They were required to wear long skirts, arms covered. One was in an arranged marriage with a guy she basically met at the altar. They had been married two years and she said her husband didn't realize what a gem he had married. She actually came across as normal and was lots of fun. She invited me to go to church with her but I declined, I'm not religious at all and avoid any religion at all costs. I did though go by the place on a week day, services were held in a regular building, probably could fit 100 people.

Here's my tie-in to your story. One of the sisters came in to work on a Monday and was so excited as she had gone skiing on the weekend. When I asked her what she wore, she said her long skirt as pants were absolutely forbidden for women. I can't imagine skiing in one of those bulky skirts.

 

[MHOrgel]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/san-bernardino-bloodbath-born-bigots-article-1.2456491

Check out this reporters take. She blames the Jewish victim as much as the shooter. I guess these days speaking out is as bad as shooting up a place.

This is the most despicable piece of "journalism" I have ever seen. She actually claimed that there were only 13 victims. The DOJ ought to be prosecuting her.

 

[kimlynn]

Thank god we have a level headed President and advisers who know better than to further inflame the situation.

POTUS and admin know more and do more than what is in the news.

Trump et al should wait until they are in office before spouting off. Talking big is easy when you are not responsible for making the decisions.

If candidates are not big enough people to stay silent and wholeheartedly support our country in a time of shock and grief they have no business in office. The victims haven’t been buried yet and they are using the tragedy as an excuse to enhance their campaigns risking our country's safety.


IMO

I have been reading along for days and agree with your post. I'm so glad we have someone level headed in office.
Some just want to rile the masses and I can see that they appeal to a certain group of people but I'll take brain over brawn any day.
This thread is so sad in more ways than one. Evolution is a great thing and I don't want to go back to waterboarding.
IMO

 

[rob]

until we stop loking for easy answers , religion, skin color , where one was born , and start looking at info

83% of mass murders are perped by white 30-40 year old american whites

its hopeless



until we start looking for gun infatuation, lonliness, etc etc it will not change

today its all aobut muslims while ignoring the numbers

83% of mass murders are perped by white 30-40 year old american whites

that is just the reality , until that is acknowledged

But if you add up the total numbers of people killed, how does that play out?

 

[katydid23]

But if you add up the total numbers of people killed, how does that play out?

Whenever people try to discount the threat of radical Islam, by pointing to 'the 40 yr old lonely white males', I have to wonder if they have forgotten the horror and utter devastation brought on by 9/11. They attacked the Huge towers, the Pentagon and were aiming for another target, perhaps the Capitol, before that plane crashed. That was an attack almost beyond comprehension. And to compare it to some crazy whackjob shooting up a mall or something is just ridiculous. The attack upon our country on 9/11 was an organized ACT OF WAR.