GUILTY CA - Ana Abulaban, 29, and Rayburn Barron, 28, killed by TikTok'r husband, San Diego, 21 Oct 2021

[ttjo]

Ali was so worried about his daughter being in an environment where there were drugs while at the hotel party. He didn't seem to mind allowing her to be present in the home with drugs, arguing and abuse. He is a master manipulator and a very good actor.

I thought the exact same thing...

 

[ttjo]

Ana came back to the apt. with a mess on the floor? She knew then that Ali had gotten into the place. She and Ray were laughing about it and Ali. The mess on the floor should've been a warning to get out of there and report it to police.

​

No kidding, he was there that night, I dont even know why I said it was naive, to expect him not to come , when he was already there...

 

[Sustained]

No kidding, he was there that night, I dont even know why I said it was naive, to expect him not to come , when he was already there...

Screams to me that Ana had seen these tantrums before and just shrugged it off. I doubt at the time that she knew he had sent some of her possessions down the trash chute.

And why else would she have invited Ray in if she knew that Ali was about to come back and get violent ? If she was really afraid of him, why didn't she change the keycard/lock on the apartment and get a TRO ? Although I doubt a TRO would have stopped the murders.

And is there any evidence that Ana and Ray were actually having an affair or was this just Ali's hatred of Ray and his insecurity about Ana ?

 

[Curious Me]

No kidding, he was there that night, I dont even know why I said it was naive, to expect him not to come , when he was already there...

Wait, not night, he entered the apt. that morning at 9:14 a.m. Ana had taken the daughter to school and wasn't there. He had sent the groceries and flowers, and she had seen them because her makeup bag was on top of the flowers crushing them. That's when Ali made a mess and threw away clothes. That morning. Ana came back to the apt. with Ray around 2 p.m.

Women need help to leave an abuser, and should maybe get counseling at that time. Ana might've mistakenly thought that she had told Ali in a clear enough message for weeks that she wanted out, that she didn't love him, that it was over. She thought that was enough to make him understand. She probably thought any normal person would get the message. The clue that it wasn't over for him was when he broke into the apt, and had sent flowers. Still, I guess his actions were beyond anything she could imagine him doing.

I agree with you, @ttjo that it's the most dangerous time when leaving an abuser. I do think that Ana and Ray laughing at the mess Ali left provoked him a little bit more. Not sure though if he could be stopped from racing towards throwing everything away in his tantrum that took two lives and destroyed his own. ​

Can be Enlarged

 

[Curious Me]

Ana and Ray come into the apt. see the mess of things thrown all over the floor and know Ali has been there angry. Wouldn't they consider he could be hiding someplace in the apt? He could be nearby. Knowing him like Ana did? He's obviously angry throwing stuff all over the apt. Wonder if they did a complete search before sitting on the couch. I guess they didn't clean up the mess on the floor as it was still there in the murder scene photos.

Can you see how jealous Ali was of Ana? He thinks he only loved her so much, but he hated her too. Anyways, probably even if they left the apt. and avoided being shot that day, it was inevitably going to happen. But what if Ali left for LA, maybe just maybe, he would've decided to move on? Probably my wishful thinking. He was willfully jealous and angry.​

 

[Curious Me]

Hope you'll watch the entire Closing Arguments. Prayers for the Jurors to come to a Verdict that they're all comfortable with and that there's fairness and Justice to their decision.

I took some screen shots and made some comments while I was watching & listening to the Closings Arguments that took place on May 24, 2024. ​

Spoiler: Screenshots of Closing Arguments and my comments

Judge Fraser

Deputy District Attorney Taren Brast explains to the Jurors what they will have to decide. She thinks and says the State has proven this was 1st degree Murder and that it was premeditated even if it was in a moment. Her job is to disregard the emotional heat of passion feelings, and concentrate on the horrible character and actions of Ali, (as Defense says try to make him into a monster). Prosecution give a rather dispassionate closing, shooting off a straight forward timeline that led up to the murders. Some of her wild projections of Ali's motives I found distracting, but all in all she presented a convincing closing.


Listening to his attorney go over his and Ana's relationship in the beginning, the happy times, when he felt she was the only one for him & felt accepted & loved by her.​

Defense - Jodi Green

Attorney Jodi Green's Closing Arguments do go over exactly the definition of a crime of passion. She says provocation is part of it taking it to 2nd and reduces it further with evidence there was a heat of passion . She's trying not to victim blame, but reveals that as a couple they were both immature and constantly on & off messing with each other's minds. MOO, he has a good attorney and she gave great defense Closing. Talking about emotions. She needs to make Jurors see Ali's other side, possibly get them to understand how this could've been a crime of passion.​

In Virginia when Ali felt more stable, they owned a house and had a child.

He is going back in time in his mind. His future fate will be in the hands of the Jurors.​

TikTok Star Murder Trial: Closing Arguments
CA v Ali Abulaban

 

[Curious Me]

Please post it here if you hear a Verdict has been reached. I sure hope we get to see it Live, or recorded. There's no telling how long it will take for Jurors to decide on a Verdict. MOO, at first it seemed open and shut, but I think the Defense's Closing may cause some hesitation. They will probably have to discuss in full whether the crimes Ali committed had provocation that resulted in a crime of passion. ​

The provocation behind a crime of passion must be that which is calculated to inflame the passions of a reasonable person. For example, assault on the defendant after the sudden discovery of spousal adultery have traditionally been regarded as sufficient provocation, while mere words have not. Cornell Law School regarding definition of a crime of passion.​

Ali Abulaban double murder trial | Jury continues deliberations Tuesday

Ali Abulaban admitted to killing his wife Ana, and friend, Ray Barron in an East Village high rise in October 2021.

www.cbs8.com

 

[Curious Me]

I. THE PROVOCATION OR “HEAT OF PASSION” DOCTRINE In the criminal law, the “heat of passion” doctrine is a partial defense that reduces an offense that would otherwise constitute murder to the lesser offense of manslaughter....

...3 The “heat of passion” element is subjective—the defendant must show that at the time of the killing, he was in fact in a state of passion or extreme anger.4 The “sufficient provocation” element is objective, in that it depends on evaluating the defendant’s extreme anger against some objective normative standard. (The nature of that normative evaluation is discussed below.) If a defendant is extremely angry but lacks sufficient provocation, the partial defense is not available. If a defendant is extremely angry and there is sufficient provocation, the partial defense is satisfied, and the defendant is guilty of manslaughter rather than murder.

https://www.law.georgetown.edu/amer...ssion-and-Blameworthy-Reasons-to-Be-Angry.pdf​

 

[AnyNameIWish]

Ty for sharing legal references that help clarify these terms.

@ curiousme
To clarify about Ali conceal carrying without having a permit to do so: this is California, even in groups of former and current military folk, conceal carry is permitted with the correct, uh, permit. There's a sense of responsibility here that he has clearly ignored, so it shows his regard of law and authority.

The more the defense describes it, the further I stray from this being a crime of passion.

He set it up himself....
He set up a surveillance system to listen to her in real time.
He immediately rushed over to her. apartment when he heard her talking to another man.
He made a series of choices, all rational, despite being on coke.

IMO, you can't decide what parameters fit for you as to what provoked you.
This talk of morals (her drugs and partying), almost saying she had different family values...
Bottom line, Ali treated her like property. Regarding his sob story of a childhood, sorry. Not buying it. He continues to see women in this way. I have to go back to the early interview as soon as he was jailed... to me, that is his true self (sorry this means I cannot be on the jury.) It ended up being a toxic relationship, which was handled poorly by both sides.

With no weapons, DV, or drugs in the scenario, this could have eventually just become a bitter custody battle*. If only.

*those are horrible enough.

 

[Curious Me]

@ curiousme

Spoiler: Picky Me

I really like your style, @AnyNameIWish. This is probably silly for me to mention, but some people don't notice this. I use the alert feature. I depend on it. Just so you know, my name would turn blue if entered correctly. @Curious Me - See it's blue? Then, I would get an alert that you mentioned me in your post. Is it different if you're using a phone? Anyways, if you already know this, please forgive me for this picky picky post. ​

Alerts - Upper right corner of page

The software suggests possible names so you can choose the one you want.
@Curiou

@Any

ETA-- I need more than 4 minutes to edit my posts. Give me a break!

 

[Curious Me]

....Bottom line, Ali treated her like property. Regarding his sob story of a childhood, sorry. Not buying it. He continues to see women in this way. I have to go back to the early interview as soon as he was jailed... to me, that is his true self (sorry this means I cannot be on the jury.) It ended up being a toxic relationship, which was handled poorly by both sides.

With no weapons, DV, or drugs in the scenario, this could have eventually just become a bitter custody battle*. If only.​

Yes! If only more people realized a bad divorce is the better way to go. Pay the child support even the alimony, rather than spend your life in prison. If only they could see that someday they'll both be at their child's graduation or marriage proud of their child. Proud of themselves also when they look back and realize they took the mature approach to the break up and it was the best choice. This long post is me trying to process all the evidence and testimonies of the trial.

@AnyNameIWish, thanks for sharing your thoughts. You make very convincing points for 1st degree Murder and you support it with examples as to why you think so. I can't disagree with a lot of what you say. I have a feeling Jurors are also going to go in that direction.

I just want to consider the Defense's arguments. Could this be an odd case of a crime of passion even though it looks like it was intended revenge? I'm struggling to give him some benefit of doubt that these crimes were a reaction to being provoked.

I had to watch his first interview from the jail again to be reminded. He actually stuck to the exact same story and reasons, so his defense isn't some new fabrication. You can see this definitely was a crime connected to his emotions. Right or wrong, he felt passionately. He's not lying about that. His childhood has something to do with it because he was brought up in a machismo household where his father was such a bad role model.

It may seem like a desperate weak plea to consider this a crime of passion. It requires us to get into a accepting frame of mind that a normal person might feel as he did. He believes Ana was partly to blame. I know that's victim blaming, but Defense in Closing gives a number of instances where Ana acted possessive and jealous too, and they often got back together. He didn't fully believe they were over. Was he provoked? He was provoked, but like you say he placed the listening device there, (so like asking to be provoked) and then heard them laughing and making fun of him.

In his mind, Ana was betraying him with another man in what had been his home, where his daughter lived. Sudden to him, he thought they'd get back together again like they had before? Here, she brought this new guy to their home within such a short time of them breaking up. Ana had lied, he felt she had been lying all along, making a fool of him, laughing at him with another man she was being intimate with right then, and the betrayal he felt was in that moment. This is how I heard the Defense's take on it. It has weak holes though I'll admit.

Correct me if I'm wrong. I got this from Defense's closing. Would a normal person feel provoked in that instance? As I understand it, the action he took doesn't have to be what a normal person would do. It's the provocation that has to meet what a normal person would take as being provoked.

Truthfully, I don't think Jurors will go with the lesser charges. Jurors will note he was abusive on a continued basis, and even if she was too, he is the one who took it further. Also I'm not sure any of us can be assured he wouldn't do something equally horrible in the future and feel somewhat entitled to do it. He seems pretty much stuck in his own beliefs and willfulness. ​

 

[Jealoushe]

This dudes mother…wow, just wow.
Enabling her entitled son to continue to be violent towards his wife and then stand up defend him is something else.

 

[Curious Me]

Here's some objective expert opinions. The Court TV panel is looking at the chances of whether Ali might get lesser charges with his defense being he was provoked. The gun does play into consideration. The way he went to the apt., already knowing the couple were there, not just casually going to visit his daughter and being surprised by his wife with another man. It weights heavily on the provocation factor. Unfortunately for him, opinions seem to be leaning towards premeditation.
​

TikTok Star Murder Trial: Jury Deliberations Begin Tuesday

Jury deliberations begin Tuesday in the TikTok Star Murder Trial. Ali Abulaban is accused of murdering his wife and a man she was with.

www.courttv.com

 

[ttjo]

Could this be an odd case of a crime of passion even though it looks like it was intended revenge? I'm struggling to give him some benefit of doubt that these crimes were a reaction to being provoked.

​

This is whats difficult for me : I don't doubt he was crazy mad. would a reasonable person have that degree of anger? I don't think so, not to the point of murder. Im sure the drugs gave that a little push too, making him unreasonable and paranoid, he was probably in a state of fight or fight where thinking is compromised.

I don't think he was provoked, Anna didn't call him and taunt him that she had another man over, he did that with the listening device.

Was it careless for her to bring a man to her place when it was evident he was there earlier in the day? I think so, but that's not provoking him, he felt provoked but she didn't provoke him, does that make sense.?
was it careless for him to plant a listening device... absolutely.
I don't know how many times i've heard people say they're just waiting for this or that to leave what they need for the truth, or for proof, Always a trigger, rarely common sense.
Like the 10 times he smacked you isnt enough, you just need this one last thing for proof.
Must be because of all the cycles before, they think it will never escalate past a certain level.
How long were they separated?, I read she only kicked him out a few days before.

 

[Curious Me]

This dudes mother…wow, just wow.
Enabling her entitled son to continue to be violent towards his wife and then stand up defend him is something else.

Are you blaming his mother? His mother is actually a victim, and probably feels great sorrow that this ever happened. You still love your kids. She testified for the defense in hopes of her son not spend the rest of his life in prison. A parent can feel somewhat responsible for their children's upbringing. She probably blames herself.

She, herself, put up with being abused for years in a dv situation. I think she said she had Ali when she was 15. She knew Ali had been brought up in a abusive household with the father setting a very bad example. Ali grew up in a household with domestic violence. Starting from when he was a toddler, he developed in that environment. She wanted the Jurors to know that was learned behavior being brought up in that environment.

She also testified that she saw Ana also being abusive, and they were both abusive with one another. I don't believe the blame falls on the mother. It was between the married couple ultimately. This is my own opinion though.

MOO, instead of relying on her friend circle to escape to stay with them and get their advice, this failing abusive marriage required professional therapy for both and I don't think they ever sought it. Not sure, but it seems she took him back without ever demanding any kind of anger mgmt. or couple's counseling. They both didn't know how to change their relationship, and needed professional help.​

 

[ttjo]

Are you blaming his mother? His mother is actually a victim, and probably feels great sorrow that this ever happened. You still love your kids. She testified for the defense in hopes of her son not spend the rest of his life in prison. A parent can feel somewhat responsible for their children's upbringing. She probably blames herself.

She, herself, put up with being abused for years in a dv situation. I think she said she had Ali when she was 15. She knew Ali had been brought up in a abusive household with the father setting a very bad example. Ali grew up in a household with domestic violence. Starting from when he was a toddler, he developed in that environment. She wanted the Jurors to know that was learned behavior being brought up in that environment.

She also testified that she saw Ana also being abusive, and they were both abusive with one another. I don't believe the blame falls on the mother. It was between the married couple ultimately. This is my own opinion though.

MOO, instead of relying on her friend circle to escape to stay with them and get their advice, this failing abusive marriage required professional therapy for both and I don't think they ever sought it. Not sure, but it seems she took him back without ever demanding any kind of anger mgmt. or couple's counseling. They both didn't know how to change their relationship, and needed professional help.​

I agree with every word you said. That is exactly it. I always hesitate because I don't want to sound victim blaming, but there is some truth to that, they were careless, underestimated the enormity of the situation, and thought they could handle it without help. and sometimes you dont get help because you're afraid the other person won't do whats asked of them, then you have to be accountable yourself, and do something you dont really want ( like leave). This is another reason things are kept quiet also, people start to expect action from you. You cannot change what you can't control right? you can only change yourself. so you hang on to the promises that are usually empty.

 

[Curious Me]

Shoulda Woulda Coulda applies to the bystanders too. Surprised there was no employee assistance program from Ali's employer that could have provided some counseling sessions. They threatened to can him, but offered no mediation. People just stood by and watched his downward spiral and drug addiction. He definitely must've exhibited increasing mental distress. He even called 911 himself which could be seen as a cry for help. I know he didn't follow through on getting his own help, he was unraveling. That's why I'm saying if only Ana gave him an ultimatum that she wouldn't take him back all those times until he started into anger mgmt. and therapy sessions, drug counseling, until he attended regular AAA meetings, something to get him on the road to good changes. MOO, they both needed some counseling because that marriage showed signs of being in serious trouble a long time ago. All that friend circle interference was not helping, they needed professional help. All MOO.

Waiting for a Verdict.​

 

[ttjo]

Shoulda Woulda Coulda applies to the bystanders too. Surprised there was no employee assistance program from Ali's employer that could have provided some counseling sessions. They threatened to can him, but offered no mediation. People just stood by and watched his downward spiral and drug addiction. He definitely must've exhibited increasing mental distress. He even called 911 himself which could be seen as a cry for help. I know he didn't follow through on getting his own help, he was unraveling. That's why I'm saying if only Ana gave him an ultimatum that she wouldn't take him back all those times until he started into anger mgmt. and therapy sessions. They both need some counseling because that marriage showed signs of being in serious trouble a long time ago. All MOO.

Waiting for a Verdict.​

I agree, It would be interesting to know if an ultimatum would have helped. I think he would have pushed right past it anyway. The worry about things like that too is if you give an ultimatum, and they dont follow through, how likely would she have left? How long before people start recognizing he wasnt doing what he was supposed to. how long before people started getting on her back about leaving? and then not being as supportive to her, because the focus can shift on to you. Sometimes they want things to be better not leave, but when that fails they just become more secretive, and only about situations Like this one, where there is a draw. a lifestyle, money. something, that keeps you there and putting up with the craziness. Not all but some are like this. I think this is so sad, and most people may not feel bad for his childhood, because of what he did, but you can't ignore that it likely played a part, among other things.

 

[Curious Me]

...take him back all those times until he started into anger mgmt. and therapy sessions, drug counseling, until he

...Must be because of all the cycles before, they think it will never escalate past a certain level. How long were they separated?, I read she only kicked him out a few days before.​

I just want you to know I ponder all you have to say and respect your opinion, @ttjo. I'm still having a hard time with the provocation because I do think it was more a build up of being provoked. Ali felt gas lighted by Ana denying she was seeing another man, making him feel he was being overly accusingly jealous, and here lo and behold she brings a man to their apt. soon after the breakup. It provoked him to have uncontrollable emotions, and yes, anger. I can see that for Ali, in his emotional mental breakdown state, plus the cocaine rush, that "time" had no meaning to him. It was all now to him. The reasonable person part would have to include relating to being him under those circumstances. The actions he took does not have to meet what a reasonable person would do if I understood it correctly? Please this is just some thoughts running through my head.

I accomplished very little today, except waiting for a Verdict, and posting here. The local news will be on in 15 minutes and maybe they'll have news on a Verdict. ​

attended regular AAA meetings, something to get him on the road to good changes....

Oops, I meant AA meetings for alcohol and drug addiction help. If nothing else, it has helped some. People reach a point sometimes where they seem to decide to throw their whole life away in a desperate moment. I wish this whole tragedy could have been stopped from happening. I used to like that tv show "Intervention" where the family and friends of would get together to confront the addicted person and offer them some kind of program where they could get help.

​

 

[Incredholt]

Looks like deliberations done for the day... back tomorrow