CA CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #11

[Gigi3]

I am not convincd that LE would start an investigation questioning other people B knew, *unless* they suspected that RT's story was not true. He reported it, said he was obviously the last to have seen her, knew exactly where he saw her last, he reportedly reported after she'd been missing only one hour, he reported he'd lost sight of her within 5 minutes of the RV.. LE aren't psychics, and so they may have taken his report at face value (although five hours in the back of a police vehicle may suggest that perhaps it wasn't at face value, I don't know?), and carried on with what they would normally do with a person reported missing in the desert. Why would LE imagine for a moment that the MP's husband would NOT have notified her immediate family? He even went on TV - which is a big risk to take if the family has not even been notified yet.. so who would've guessed that he had not yet done this? When her body was not found after days, or if things started NOT adding up, like say a lie detector test or story lines, or time lines, or whatever, *then* I can imagine and I hope that LE would follow up with other people BT knew, so see if there may be more to the story. imo.

Totally agree with you! Also, I said early on I would have thought RT/LE would have surely contacted family just to see if perhaps Barb decided to up and leave for her trip earlier than scheduled. But after hearing that RT canceled her flight, I guess that would not have been possible. I truly hope we get more information soon!

 

[PaulR]

If I had to guess, I would assume that's what they did. I think it was after Barbara was missing about 6 days that LE contacted him.

And I agree with MsBetsy's proposal about what went down. At any rate, very few of us have "go missing" kits with numbers stored carefully to give to police. Presumably, RT was/is cooperating with LE and gave them his password so that they could check out his phone.

That's why I think his phone has to show his whereabouts as roughly consistent with what RT has said publicly.

What kind of phone does he have? Android lets you see your timeline pretty accurately (Google Maps, "View Timeline".)

 

[artsy1]

If BT inherited millions, I'm having trouble reconciling this with the fact that she felt she couldn't keep the borrowed cell phone in Hong Kong because it was too expensive. Why didn't she buy herself a cell phone? The VI has stated she mentioned wanting one. It apparently wasn't about money.

My understanding from the VI was that they had to show her how to use it. IMO, it sounded, from the way the VI spoke, that she DIDN'T want one.

 

[al66pine]

There's a claim that a PI hired by the family found a fair amount of blood. That could have been enough for the family to make the claim that he must be dead. I know there have been convictions for murder even though a corpse has not been found, due to the sheer amount of blood found; "The Murder Room" talks about one of these cases.

@PaulR Thanks for your post, prompting me to recall a few websites on the subject.

List of murder convictions without a body - Wikipedia
has a listing by country, scroll waaaay down for US.

No Body Cases
Site of former prosecutor, apparently no longer updated/maintained since ~2017.
Thomas A. (Tad) DiBiase, "No Body" Guy
"Trials" tab, list of 500 no-body murder trials in US. Note: security messages for some tabs.

^ including this in post, to show # of trials, not exactly common, but to show these no-body prosecutions do happen and some result in convictions.

 

[Seattle1]

An unbiased opinion is that maybe LE thought RT would notify Barbara's family ?
All it would have taken was for RT to contact the son and the son would've contacted the rest of the family.
Just one person.
Why didn't this happen ?
The questions should be at Barbara's husband, and not LE. Imo.

After all, he is a victim and as such would've received support had he reached out.

It appears LE was under the impression that RT would notify extended family of missing person. I believe that is a reasonable assumption.

We also know that LE notified Barbara's only son a several days later that his mother was missing -- perhaps to question him as part of the investigation, and to determine if BT's absence was voluntary or involuntary.

MOO

 

[katydid23]

So if you inherit $1,000,000 that you want to keep, but then you spend $10,000 from your sole bank account to remodel a kitchen in your home that you both use, that entitles your spouse to the remaining 990,000? Or what if you buy a spaghetti pot you both cook with, hang a painting in the hallway that you both see each day, or buy your spouse a new car as a gift using that account? Does that mean ALL of the money is now a joint asset? That doesn't seem possible because it would mean you could only purchase things that your spouse never used or could enjoy for the rest of your married life.

No, I don't think that is what it means exactly.

You can buy art or furniture, to be used in the home. Because that painting can be taken with you in a divorce. But if you use the inheritance in a kitchen remodel or a down payment, it is not something easily retrieved.

If you put a large down payment on a home, then both partners are paying the mortgage together for awhile, it becomes a very muddled situation, financially.

Comingling cash is more about where you park that cash. You dont want to put it in joint accounts, for example.

 

[al66pine]

AZ statutes re Premarital agreement

Here's some information about AZ being a community property state :

Living In a Community Property State
ETA: Link to specific statutes of the AZ Legislature Arizona Revised Statutes

@?mysterian? Thanks for your post w links. Esp'ly relevant info from AZ statutes^.
25-201. Definitions
In this article, unless the context otherwise requires:
1. "Premarital agreement" means an agreement between prospective spouses that is made in contemplation of marriage and that is effective on marriage.
2. "Property" means an interest, present or future, legal or equitable, vested or contingent, in real or personal property, including income and earnings."
And more sections:
25-202
Enforcement of premarital agreements; exception...
25-203
Scope of agreement
"A. Parties to a premarital agreement may contract with respect to:
"1. The rights and obligations of each of the parties in any of the property of either or both of them whenever and wherever acquired or located."
"3. The disposition of property on separation, marital dissolution, death or the occurrence or nonoccurrence of any other event." ^^^bbm ^^^
25-204
Amendment or revocation of agreement....
25-205
Limitation of actions....
^^ FWIW ^^.

 

[10ofRods]

They were married, correct?

Why the mention of Comm Property? In my state, Comm Property is only between couples not married but who have lived together for a stated length of time.

Perhaps the Pre-Nup, if there was one, had a time limit that was approaching where there would be a big change. As I know them to be, the wife will get more of her husband’s estate. Or could be the husband got more if BT was wealthy on her own.

Wait a minute - that could be it! RT was to receive more money from BT’s estate after a certain date. The day had already passed. . . .

A pre-nup May say after 15 years of marriage, my husband is to receive 50% of my estate. Where she had originally only left him 25%.*** This is just an example***

Anyway we can find out? Wills are not public knowledge until after a person is deceased are they?

We have no idea about a pre-nup. I have reason to doubt that they did.

Community property doesn't mean what you say it means in your state, in Arizona or California or Nevada. Community property law in general is described here:

Community property - Wikipedia

(First paragraph).

So if you inherit $1,000,000 that you want to keep, but then you spend $10,000 from your sole bank account to remodel a kitchen in your home that you both use, that entitles your spouse to the remaining 990,000? Or what if you buy a spaghetti pot you both cook with, hang a painting in the hallway that you both see each day, or buy your spouse a new car as a gift using that account? Does that mean ALL of the money is now a joint asset? That doesn't seem possible because it would mean you could only purchase things that your spouse never used or could enjoy for the rest of your married life.

No, it means that the kitchen becomes community property, as it is part of the house. If you bought a car with your inheritance and put the car only in your name and no one else's, it would stay separate.

Whatever you take out of your inheritance fund (home equity, cash) and spend on a jointly owned project (house) becomes commingled and is no longer your separate property. It becomes like everything else you earned during the marriage.

In this case, if the funds were already commingled (and I bet they were), then RT is now the only owner with access and will remain so. If he ever manages to marry again, he might want a pre-nup to protect those assets if he didn't spend it all down in the meantime. If Barbara doesn't show up, he'll need to go through a lengthy process of having her declared dead (5 year wait) before he can remarry.

If they were not commingled and she had a separate account for them, and she did not have a will (she probably did but who knows? who would know where it is except RT? no evidence they had a family attorney but we just don't know) then he has to have her declared dead. He will inherit the funds unless a properly executed will is found that distribute the funds to someone else.

Right now, all their joint assets (house, probably truck and trailer, maybe airplane) are in his control. If she doesn't show up, he can write a will and dispense these items to whomever he likes upon his own death. Not sure what happens if, 10 years from now, Barbara has not been declared dead. I think RT's heirs will likely have to go through that process to probate his will.

 

[rosesfromangels]

We have no idea about a pre-nup. I have reason to doubt that they did.

Community property doesn't mean what you say it means in your state, in Arizona or California or Nevada. Community property law in general is described here:

Community property - Wikipedia

(First paragraph).



No, it means that the kitchen becomes community property, as it is part of the house. If you bought a car with your inheritance and put the car only in your name and no one else's, it would stay separate.

Whatever you take out of your inheritance fund (home equity, cash) and spend on a jointly owned project (house) becomes commingled and is no longer your separate property. It becomes like everything else you earned during the marriage.

In this case, if the funds were already commingled (and I bet they were), then RT is now the only owner with access and will remain so. If he ever manages to marry again, he might want a pre-nup to protect those assets if he didn't spend it all down in the meantime. If Barbara doesn't show up, he'll need to go through a lengthy process of having her declared dead (5 year wait) before he can remarry.

If they were not commingled and she had a separate account for them, and she did not have a will (she probably did but who knows? who would know where it is except RT? no evidence they had a family attorney but we just don't know) then he has to have her declared dead. He will inherit the funds unless a properly executed will is found that distribute the funds to someone else.

Right now, all their joint assets (house, probably truck and trailer, maybe airplane) are in his control. If she doesn't show up, he can write a will and dispense these items to whomever he likes upon his own death. Not sure what happens if, 10 years from now, Barbara has not been declared dead. I think RT's heirs will likely have to go through that process to probate his will.

And not to be too grim, the reality is by the time her estate gets sorted out he may very well have passed on himself given his age. Sorry to bring that up, but it’s a distinct possibility given his age. It will take time to declare her deceased, gets forensic accounting, etc.
If anyone contests the will that will take even longer.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[10ofRods]

No, I don't think that is what it means exactly.

You can buy art or furniture, to be used in the home. Because that painting can be taken with you in a divorce. But if you use the inheritance in a kitchen remodel or a down payment, it is not something easily retrieved.

If you put a large down payment on a home, then both partners are paying the mortgage together for awhile, it becomes a very muddled situation, financially.

Comingling cash is more about where you park that cash. You dont want to put it in joint accounts, for example.

Well, some of us do want exactly that. I don't want my spouse to have to go through lengthy legal measures to retrieve cash upon my death (probate is a hassle). Almost everyone I know puts their inheritance into accounts they share with a spouse, but maybe that's just my family and friends, but I have a big family and several friends who have inherited. I think if a person is just embarking on a marriage and you already have a big inheritance, one might feel differently.

 

[katydid23]

Well, some of us do want exactly that. I don't want my spouse to have to go through lengthy legal measures to retrieve cash upon my death (probate is a hassle). Almost everyone I know puts their inheritance into accounts they share with a spouse, but maybe that's just my family and friends, but I have a big family and several friends who have inherited. I think if a person is just embarking on a marriage and you already have a big inheritance, one might feel differently.

Oh, I agree with you. I put my hefty inheritance check in a joint account. But we had been married for 30 years, were in a strong relationship and I didn't feel like my husband was going to run off to Vegas with my cash and a new girlfriend.

But it can happen that way. I would advise someone in a very new marriage or a shaky marriage, to keep their inheritance separate for awhile. JMO

 

[PaulR]

So I asked about this before, what is the evidence that BT received an inheritance and how much it was for?

I mean, people have killed over $30.

 

[?mysterian?]

So I asked about this before, what is the evidence that BT received an inheritance and how much it was for?

I mean, people have killed over $30.

From Thread 10, our VI posted:

"chunk of potential motive, i don't recall if it made it to the pub thread or not, but i know from my dad barb was the sole inheritor in my grandma's will.

according to my fathers estranged brother, barb inherited few million(s)? no confirmation on exact amount, but he made it sound like she was set for life after my grandma died. was the first hint i ever had that barb had substantial assets. she lived very modestly, imo.

also some potential insight into matthews mindset re barbs estate?
dbdb11, Sep 23, 2019 Report#256Like"

 

[10ofRods]

So I asked about this before, what is the evidence that BT received an inheritance and how much it was for?

I mean, people have killed over $30.

Our VI mentioned it. I don't think he knows the exact amount. Her mother apparently decided to leave everything to Barb (and nothing to the two sons, both of whom are apparently fairly well off). VI said no one knew the amount but assumed it was "millions." I think this was a few years back, not sure. RT may also have received a smaller amount something like 6 months ago - does anyone remember that?

Good to see you here, PaulR. If the police have RT's phone and his password so that they can look at the contents, they'd have his digital footprint (unless he had turned his phone off or something), right? By that I mean, they'd have independent confirmation of where he was all day on July 12?

How long would it take them to figure that out?

Edited to change to proper kin term (mother)

 

[katyy]

I just re-read the text that our VI received from his sister regarding the call with RT, and something occurred to me that I hadn't paid much attention to before. Sorry if this has already been mentioned in earlier threads but I have been following since the start and can't remember them all now that we're on thread 11 with still no known progress!
VI's sister said that RT searched for BT for about an hour after she went missing, including at a cave he thought she may have been at, a cave which was familiar to them. That's not the exact wording, but that's what I took it to mean, or at least that he knew there was a cave and didn't just happen upon it. So to me this suggests one of two things: 1. They had visited the cave earlier that day, perhaps explaining some of the missing timeline? Or, 2. They had been to this area before on a previous trip. Or to add a 3rd option, if RT had actually meant that they hadn't visited the cave but knew it existed because of their research for this trip, then that suggests that they had planned to stop in this particular area and it wasn't just a random 'oh hey those rocks look cool, let's stop here to check them out' decision.
MOO and amateur speculation.

 

[PaulR]

From Thread 10, our VI posted:

"chunk of potential motive, i don't recall if it made it to the pub thread or not, but i know from my dad barb was the sole inheritor in my grandma's will.

according to my fathers estranged brother, barb inherited few million(s)? no confirmation on exact amount, but he made it sound like she was set for life after my grandma died. was the first hint i ever had that barb had substantial assets. she lived very modestly, imo.

also some potential insight into matthews mindset re barbs estate?
dbdb11, Sep 23, 2019 Report#256Like"

Thanks.

There's an incident in my family, and I won't go into specifics, where one family member was convinced that another family member got a lot of money from an inheritance, and I'm still not convinced it happened. People act really strange when it comes to inheritances - that doesn't just include killing but legal motions, people manipulating others into signing over everything to them, people claiming that others manipulated someone into signing everything over to them, believes that elderly people who are on Medicaid still have large bank accounts, etc.

In this case - the VI may be 100% honest about what they heard, but it also depends on their father's estranged brother being truthful, being correct about how much was in the estate, the nature of the asset and how it was evaluated (are we talking bags of money or mineral rights, etc.)

Also, it is very easy to live modestly and have substantial assets. In fact that's how most people get substantial assets. "The Millionaire Next Door" is a great book about this. At the very least it keeps you off the radar of potential thieves.

 

[PaulR]

Good to see you here, PaulR. If the police have RT's phone and his password so that they can look at the contents, they'd have his digital footprint (unless he had turned his phone off or something), right? By that I mean, they'd have independent confirmation of where he was all day on July 12?

How long would it take them to figure that out?

I don't know what kind of phone he had. But I have "location services" turned on (which is the default, since you want maps to work for directions); it shows exactly where I drove yesterday, including the roads I took and how long I was at a given location. Timeline doesn't show where I went for a walk today, yet, but it's shown previous walks (including the exact trails I took.)

If you have an Android phone, you can try this out: Sign in - Google Accounts

 

[RANCH]

Thanks.

There's an incident in my family, and I won't go into specifics, where one family member was convinced that another family member got a lot of money from an inheritance, and I'm still not convinced it happened. People act really strange when it comes to inheritances - that doesn't just include killing but legal motions, people manipulating others into signing over everything to them, people claiming that others manipulated someone into signing everything over to them, believes that elderly people who are on Medicaid still have large bank accounts, etc.

In this case - the VI may be 100% honest about what they heard, but it also depends on their father's estranged brother being truthful, being correct about how much was in the estate, the nature of the asset and how it was evaluated (are we talking bags of money or mineral rights, etc.)

Also, it is very easy to live modestly and have substantial assets. In fact that's how most people get substantial assets. "The Millionaire Next Door" is a great book about this. At the very least it keeps you off the radar of potential thieves.

You make some good points. Why did the VI's father learn about the inheritance from the estranged brother? Did Barb tell only the one brother? Strange.

 

[10ofRods]

I just re-read the text that our VI received from his sister regarding the call with RT, and something occurred to me that I hadn't paid much attention to before. Sorry if this has already been mentioned in earlier threads but I have been following since the start and can't remember them all now that we're on thread 11 with still no known progress!
VI's sister said that RT searched for BT for about an hour after she went missing, including at a cave he thought she may have been at, a cave which was familiar to them. That's not the exact wording, but that's what I took it to mean, or at least that he knew there was a cave and didn't just happen upon it. So to me this suggests one of two things: 1. They had visited the cave earlier that day, perhaps explaining some of the missing timeline? Or, 2. They had been to this area before on a previous trip. Or to add a 3rd option, if RT had actually meant that they hadn't visited the cave but knew it existed because of their research for this trip, then that suggests that they had planned to stop in this particular area and it wasn't just a random 'oh hey those rocks look cool, let's stop here to check them out' decision.
MOO and amateur speculation.

I do think they planned to stop there. It's a well known trail, and it has more types of desert plants than anyplace else nearby. I'm also guessing they'd been there before but you're right, perhaps he or they researched that "cave" (apparently the one shown in the SAR pictures, at least that seems to be a viable assumption). Also, the boulders have several small access trails and do look very inviting.

I wish we knew where the panorama/360 photo was taken. It is indeed possible that they went on one walk, came back, then did another. That's not exactly what RT told the VI, IIRC, but perhaps RT didn't think the earlier walk significant?

 

[10ofRods]

I don't know what kind of phone he had. But I have "location services" turned on (which is the default, since you want maps to work for directions); it shows exactly where I drove yesterday, including the roads I took and how long I was at a given location. Timeline doesn't show where I went for a walk today, yet, but it's shown previous walks (including the exact trails I took.)

If you have an Android phone, you can try this out: Sign in - Google Accounts

Thank you so much. I have an iPhone and it's pretty similar (and of course we use google maps, which should activate the google services, I think). Not sure if I had to sign into google maps on my phone though.