CA CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #9

[Nikynoo]

If they paused, opened the awning, had lunch, poured beer into a container, etc., that makes sense to me. However...2 hours is a long time to be out in the heat. Age, weight, dress, hydration, time of day, color of sand - all variables.

snipped for focus - I have long thought that they stopped for lunch. If they left at 8.15, they must have been hungry by mid day (i would be )

 

[wary]

snipped for focus - I have long thought that they stopped for lunch. If they left at 8.15, they must have been hungry by mid day (i would be )

That helps fill in the timeline in a logical way—but what did they do before lunch? An earlier walk? There’s way too many hours in the timeline that are not accounted for.

 

[LietKynes]

That helps fill in the timeline in a logical way—but what did they do before lunch? An earlier walk? There’s way too many hours in the timeline that are not accounted for.

BBM
Excellent comment, @wary !

And if they stopped for lunch, Barbara should've been seen on camera.
At the very least the dog kennel should have security cams.
Where is the footage from the dog being dropped off ?

When Sandra Cantu went missing, the news media played the last sighting of her, out in the street -- walking by a neighbor's home.
The clip was shown over and over.

We don't even know if the photo of Barbara in the bikini top and red hat (later changed to white) was taken that day.

 

[MsBetsy]

That helps fill in the timeline in a logical way—but what did they do before lunch? An earlier walk? There’s way too many hours in the timeline that are not accounted for.

I have always wondered if they sat outside before going for the walk and had something to eat and drink.
They apparently had the chairs set up, and maybe the awning as well.

One of my old boyfriends was a beer drinker and we did a lot of camping and hiking together. He always insisted on eating before drinking beer or at least having some food while drinking the beer.

Of course they may have had breakfast before leaving the house, too.
But if they sat for awhile after they first got there that might explain the length of time between when they would have arrived and when they went for a walk and when he made the 911 call. Imo

 

[Nikynoo]

That helps fill in the timeline in a logical way—but what did they do before lunch? An earlier walk? There’s way too many hours in the timeline that are not accounted for.

Lets see?
Please feel free to add/adjust this timeline.
If anyone can do a map which includes the stop at the gas station, that would be great!

We know that it takes about 1 hours 45 minutes to 2 hours from home to Kelbaker/Hidden Hills. I'm going with 2 hours, to round up (plus its getting late in the day for me).

• We know that they left home around 8.15 am
• We know that they stopped at the gas station for ice about an hour later. Say they leave the Gas station at 9.30.
• We *think* that they may have stopped on the way - at the place of the 360 photo. For the sake of argument, lets say its half way between the gas station and Kelbaker/Hidden Hills - so they arrive at the 360 place at 10am.
• They go for a walk to the top of the hill, take photo, and return to the RV - allow 45 mins - leave 360 place at 10.45
• They arrive at Kelbaker/Hidden Hills at 11.15, park RV, set up chairs, prepare and eat lunch - allow an hour
• leave RV for walk 12.15 . 1 mile, lets allow - 30 mins max = 12.45
• look at rock formations take photos - would this be a leisurely pace?( Not too worried about heat here because of elevation and both are prob used to higher temps at their home) allow another 30 mins = 1.15
• start walk back to RV - allow another 30 minutes = 1.45
• arrive at RV at 1.45

So, with the above time line, one or both should have arrived back at the RV by 1.45. If RT arrived back at 1.45, and spent an hour searching, his 911 call would have been around 2.45. I think we are 50 minutes short, which of course could be explained, by a longer stop at the 360 place, traffic, another stop between the 360 place and Kelbaker, a longer lunch etc. But I dont think the walk to the rock formation would be more than an hour and a half.

 

[Nikynoo]

We don't even know if the photo of Barbara in the bikini top and red hat (later changed to white) was taken that day.

I dont want to be picky, but wasn't it established the the hat was red and white? Red at the front and white panels on the sides?

 

[MsBetsy]

Surprisingly I agree that repetition is key.
I believe LE has plenty of proof of not only her being there that day, they probably have a good idea of the location/s.

I have never believed this to be an "old" picture.

Search underway for lost hiker in Mojave Desert

Yes, that reminds me of another thing I saw when I was reading about California procedures for missing persons.
It said that LE requires the family provide a recent photo of the missing person.

So it had to have been fairly recent, I would think. If they had a good picture of her that was taken on that day I think that's the one they would use. Imo

 

[MsBetsy]

Lets see?
Please feel free to add/adjust this timeline.
If anyone can do a map which includes the stop at the gas station, that would be great!

We know that it takes about 1 hours 45 minutes to 2 hours from home to Kelbaker/Hidden Hills. I'm going with 2 hours, to round up (plus its getting late in the day for me).

• We know that they left home around 8.15 am
• We know that they stopped at the gas station for ice about an hour later. Say they leave the Gas station at 9.30.
• We *think* that they may have stopped on the way - at the place of the 360 photo. For the sake of argument, lets say its half way between the gas station and Kelbaker/Hidden Hills - so they arrive at the 360 place at 10am.
• They go for a walk to the top of the hill, take photo, and return to the RV - allow 45 mins - leave 360 place at 10.45
• They arrive at Kelbaker/Hidden Hills at 11.15, park RV, set up chairs, prepare and eat lunch - allow an hour
• leave RV for walk 12.15 . 1 mile, lets allow - 30 mins max = 12.45
• look at rock formations take photos - would this be a leisurely pace?( Not too worried about heat here because of elevation and both are prob used to higher temps at their home) allow another 30 mins = 1.15
• start walk back to RV - allow another 30 minutes = 1.45
• arrive at RV at 1.45

So, with the above time line, one or both should have arrived back at the RV by 1.45. If RT arrived back at 1.45, and spent an hour searching, his 911 call would have been around 2.45. I think we are 50 minutes short, which of course could be explained, by a longer stop at the 360 place, traffic, another stop between the 360 place and Kelbaker, a longer lunch etc. But I dont think the walk to the rock formation would be more than an hour and a half.

Do we know how long it took LE to arrive after the 911 call was made?
Have they ever verified the time that they got there? Do we know who was the first to arrive at the scene?

I know in some cases people have complained that police took a long time to get to the scene, but I don't remember hearing anything about it in this case. Imo

 

[katydid23]

th

Ooops, my bad!

The following explains the exemptions under the law of California and can be found here (its a Q&A site)-https://firstamendmentcoalition.org...viously-public-statement-claiming-exemptions/ .
"....under California’s Public Records Act, police investigatory records are exempt from disclosure under Government Code § 6254(f), which exempts “[r]ecords of complaints to, or investigations conducted by, or records of intelligence information or security procedures…or security files compiled by any other state or local police agency, or any investigatory or security files compiled by any other state or local agency for correctional,
law enforcement, or licensing purposes.” Gov. Code, § 6254(f).

Police are required to release a limited amount of information related to arrests and requests for assistance, unless the disclosure of such information “would endanger the safety of a person involved in an investigation or would endanger the successful completion of the investigation or a related investigation.” Id.

This information includes “the time, substance, and location of all complaints or requests for assistance received by the agency and the time and nature of the response thereto, including, to the extent the information regarding crimes alleged or committed or any other incident investigated is recorded, the time, date, and location of occurrence, the time and date of the report, the name and age of the victim, the factual circumstances surrounding the crime or incident, and a general description of any injuries, property, or weapons involved.” Gov’t Code § 6254(f)(2).

.......the exemption contained in 6254(f) is discretionary, and therefore, if a police department wanted to release more records related to this incident, it could without running afoul of the Public Records Act.



Edited to make more relevant.

The above seems to be about 'police investigatory records.' Are 911 calls specifically investigative records? IDK
This is about specifically 911 calls in California:

California Public Records Act
The California Public Records Act makes state and local agency records, including emergency 911 call records, available for public inspection and copying.

Limitations on Requests
Law enforcement agencies may withhold information in CPRA requests to protect a party's privacy. For example, a 911 tape may include the name of a minor child, or a person's personal phone number and home address. The agency may redact, or conceal, this type of sensitive information from a record before releasing it. An agency can also withhold a record under the broad exception that more harm than good would come to the public by its disclosure. For example, if releasing a 911 tape would create a homeland security threat, the government has the right to deny a request for its disclosure.

https://legalbeagle.com/8302569-obtain-records-911-calls-california.html


I don't see any reason for this specific 911 call to be withheld, unless they are investigating this case as criminal. JMO

 

[Nikynoo]

th

The above seems to be about 'police investigatory records.' Are 911 calls specifically investigative records? IDK
This is about specifically 911 calls in California:

possibly if it forms part of the investigation.

 

[10ofRods]

Lets see?
Please feel free to add/adjust this timeline.
If anyone can do a map which includes the stop at the gas station, that would be great!

We know that it takes about 1 hours 45 minutes to 2 hours from home to Kelbaker/Hidden Hills. I'm going with 2 hours, to round up (plus its getting late in the day for me).

• We know that they left home around 8.15 am
• We know that they stopped at the gas station for ice about an hour later. Say they leave the Gas station at 9.30.
• We *think* that they may have stopped on the way - at the place of the 360 photo. For the sake of argument, lets say its half way between the gas station and Kelbaker/Hidden Hills - so they arrive at the 360 place at 10am.
• They go for a walk to the top of the hill, take photo, and return to the RV - allow 45 mins - leave 360 place at 10.45
• They arrive at Kelbaker/Hidden Hills at 11.15, park RV, set up chairs, prepare and eat lunch - allow an hour
• leave RV for walk 12.15 . 1 mile, lets allow - 30 mins max = 12.45
• look at rock formations take photos - would this be a leisurely pace?( Not too worried about heat here because of elevation and both are prob used to higher temps at their home) allow another 30 mins = 1.15
• start walk back to RV - allow another 30 minutes = 1.45
• arrive at RV at 1.45

So, with the above time line, one or both should have arrived back at the RV by 1.45. If RT arrived back at 1.45, and spent an hour searching, his 911 call would have been around 2.45. I think we are 50 minutes short, which of course could be explained, by a longer stop at the 360 place, traffic, another stop between the 360 place and Kelbaker, a longer lunch etc. But I dont think the walk to the rock formation would be more than an hour and a half.

That's very good but, I think, a little optimistic for having to travel in the truck lane (really unlikely they were illegally in the fast or middle lanes on the I-40 in their new rig - almost never see it).

Also, you'd need to posit just where people could stop between Needles and Kelbaker to climb up on a hill that is scenic. There is one option, I think - I'll have to go look at the maps again (but if that gap is posited, it would be good to think of a place where anyone would stop, with a large RV rig, to climb a "hill" for a view that had parking lots around it - Hidden Hills Rd doesn't work).

If RT arrived back at 1:45, then it's longer than one hour before he calls LE.

 

[Nikynoo]

Do we know how long it took LE to arrive after the 911 call was made?
Have they ever verified the time that they got there? Do we know who was the first to arrive at the scene?

I know in some cases people have complained that police took a long time to get to the scene, but I don't remember hearing anything about it in this case. Imo

about 2 hours I think @10ofRods would know

 

[Nikynoo]

That's very good but, I think, a little optimistic for having to travel in the truck lane (really unlikely they were illegally in the fast or middle lanes on the I-40 in their new rig - almost never see it).

Also, you'd need to posit just where people could stop between Needles and Kelbaker to climb up on a hill that is scenic. There is one option, I think - I'll have to go look at the maps again (but if that gap is posited, it would be good to think of a place where anyone would stop, with a large RV rig, to climb a "hill" for a view that had parking lots around it - Hidden Hills Rd doesn't work).

If RT arrived back at 1:45, then it's longer than one hour before he calls LE.

you need to factor in the hour he searched for her - from arriving back at RV 1.45, an hour searching = 2.45. I think the 911 call was at 3.35?

 

[katydid23]

possibly if it forms part of the investigation.

YEs, I agree.

And that is my original point. Why won't they release the 911 call to Barb's nephew, when he formally submitted a FOIA request?

If it was being considered a missing hiker, who got disoriented and lost in the desert, why not release the call?

Not releasing it, makes me think they are considering this as a possible criminal case. JMO

 

[Nikynoo]

That's very good but, I think, a little optimistic for having to travel in the truck lane (really unlikely they were illegally in the fast or middle lanes on the I-40 in their new rig - almost never see it).

Also, you'd need to posit just where people could stop between Needles and Kelbaker to climb up on a hill that is scenic. There is one option, I think - I'll have to go look at the maps again (but if that gap is posited, it would be good to think of a place where anyone would stop, with a large RV rig, to climb a "hill" for a view that had parking lots around it - Hidden Hills Rd doesn't work).

If RT arrived back at 1:45, then it's longer than one hour before he calls LE.

is the truck lane faster or slower? I have no idea, we dont have them here.

if you can look at possible stops, between the gas station and the final destination that would fit, that would be great!

 

[Nikynoo]

YEs, I agree.

And that is my original point. Why won't they release the 911 call to Barb's nephew, when he formally submitted a FOIA request?

If it was being considered a missing hiker, who got disoriented and lost in the desert, why not release the call?

Not releasing it, makes me think they are considering this as a possible criminal case. JMO

perhaps they are hedging their bets? If they are open to other possibilities (other than missing), perhaps they dont want to compromise something that could form part of a prosecution in the future? IDK

 

[katydid23]

perhaps they are hedging their bets? If they are open to other possibilities (other than missing), perhaps they dont want to compromise something that could form part of a prosecution in the future? IDK

Right...which is why I said "makes me think they are considering this as a possible criminal case."JMO

 

[Nikynoo]

Right...which is why I said "makes me think they are considering this as a possible criminal case."JMO

Agree. Though to be fair, LE always hedge their bets until they're certain.

 

[Nikynoo]

That's very good but, I think, a little optimistic for having to travel in the truck lane (really unlikely they were illegally in the fast or middle lanes on the I-40 in their new rig - almost never see it).

Also, you'd need to posit just where people could stop between Needles and Kelbaker to climb up on a hill that is scenic. There is one option, I think - I'll have to go look at the maps again (but if that gap is posited, it would be good to think of a place where anyone would stop, with a large RV rig, to climb a "hill" for a view that had parking lots around it - Hidden Hills Rd doesn't work).

If RT arrived back at 1:45, then it's longer than one hour before he calls LE.

this is from the VIs post - the text from his sister that mentions the hill and the 360 photo
"she took a 360 picture that morning from on top of a hill and the photo included a parking lot with some vehicles in it "
I may be barking up the wrong tree here, but this makes me think that they stopped somewhere between the gas station and HH.

BTW I also think the sister misheard or mis-remembered the time, noon, when RT said two. Which would also tie in with the VI's deleted post that the last photo of Barbara was taken around 2.

 

[Kapua]

Lets see?
Please feel free to add/adjust this timeline.
If anyone can do a map which includes the stop at the gas station, that would be great!

We know that it takes about 1 hours 45 minutes to 2 hours from home to Kelbaker/Hidden Hills. I'm going with 2 hours, to round up (plus its getting late in the day for me).

• We know that they left home around 8.15 am
• We know that they stopped at the gas station for ice about an hour later. Say they leave the Gas station at 9.30.
• We *think* that they may have stopped on the way - at the place of the 360 photo. For the sake of argument, lets say its half way between the gas station and Kelbaker/Hidden Hills - so they arrive at the 360 place at 10am.
• They go for a walk to the top of the hill, take photo, and return to the RV - allow 45 mins - leave 360 place at 10.45
• They arrive at Kelbaker/Hidden Hills at 11.15, park RV, set up chairs, prepare and eat lunch - allow an hour
• leave RV for walk 12.15 . 1 mile, lets allow - 30 mins max = 12.45
• look at rock formations take photos - would this be a leisurely pace?( Not too worried about heat here because of elevation and both are prob used to higher temps at their home) allow another 30 mins = 1.15
• start walk back to RV - allow another 30 minutes = 1.45
• arrive at RV at 1.45

So, with the above time line, one or both should have arrived back at the RV by 1.45. If RT arrived back at 1.45, and spent an hour searching, his 911 call would have been around 2.45. I think we are 50 minutes short, which of course could be explained, by a longer stop at the 360 place, traffic, another stop between the 360 place and Kelbaker, a longer lunch etc. But I dont think the walk to the rock formation would be more than an hour and a half.

I've worked the timeline a few different ways. Today, I will start here:

There are 7+ hours between 8:30 AM, when they left their house, and 3:36 PM, when the 911 call appeared in the call log.

It takes roughly 1 hour and 45 minutes to drive from Bullhead City, AZ to Kelbaker/Hidden Hills Rd., CA, according to Google maps. We know RT stopped for ice. I'm guesstimating 2 hours for sake of argument.

That leaves roughly 5 hours, 15 minutes, not including the time it took for LE to arrive.

Where and when they allegedly stopped and walked, took pictures, ate lunch, whatever, is unclear and unsubstantiated.

How long was the walk? We don't know. Where and when were photos taken? We don't know. So we are all guessing at how those critical 5 1/4 hours were spent.

IMHO

Carry on.