CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013 - #3

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What's up with her swinging round house arm as she first enters the elevator to press the buttons?

Who does that? In what situation and why?
 
they went to the 14th or 15th floor (sorry, i don't remember which one)
opened the window connected to the fire escape on the outside of the building, no alarm, waited 5 min to see if any security was coming up, none. so they just climbed the ladder which was on the outside of the building and went to the roof. easy as that.
they did not try the door that had the so called alarms for fearing of actually setting up the alarm.
but the access to the roof according to them was easy and wasn't guarded in any way.

Thanks.

Well, that's dangerous and inconsistent, to say the least.
Why worry about the locked door if the windows and fire escape aren't?
What would prevent people from robbing the place blind?
Or having people bypass the elevator system that supposedly only stopped for certain floors via a security key depending on which place you were staying?
 
I noted that LE announced that the water was fine even before they had
begun testing it.
I concluded that it was possible this was not a direct water source to the hotel, hostel, coffee shop or the Invisible Light Co., at all.

I noted that no one mentioned anything about how bad the water smelled.
Or the texture or anything. That and a few anomalies about the photos of the tanks have me questioning whether her body was recovered from the tanks at all. Or the water was not directly drawn from these cisterns.
But then, without that, then there is no rationale for looking there, since it was claimed the water pressure was the alleged issue.

In all the photos, I see lots of FD personnel but maybe one that had a police officer on scene! Then once they had cut a hole in the tank, for some reason one of the photographers posted a pic looking down from a different tank because it still had the square smaller hole, not the jagged rectangular one after the cut.

I get the feeling the cops are keeping the story at arms length for some reason. And a finding of inconclusive autopsy results gives the just the right
rationale for dropping the story altogether.

It could be that the hotel is afraid of losing more tenants and SRO funding:
http://portal.hud.gov/hudportal/HUD?src=/program_offices/comm_planning/homeless/programs/sro
Just putting that out there.
 
Well I would say there is no evidence of anything sinister through the elevator video. Looks to me like an adventurous young gal roaming an interesting old building - probably with some others she met at Stay. Some dope or alcohol may have been in the mix. And those might have interacted with her medications and/or her self-acknowledged bi-polar condition. The police found no evidence of malice to the body. So she was likely not raped, beaten, choked, dragged to the top of the cistern and dumped in based on that. I've flip-flopped a few times now. But that's where I stand now.

It would be foolish of them to conclude an absence of malice based on the autopsy. The report itself was neutral due to heavy putrification of the victim. A lack of evidence is not the same thing as evidence to the contrary. That's why they haven't ruled out homicide as a cause of death and haven't ruled out accident/suicide, either.
---

I agree with your assessment of the video. To me she just looks like she's a bit tipsy on wine that mixed with her medications. I think she may have suggested a penchant for wine in her tumblr blog. Even if she was against drinking, at 21 years old, maybe this was her first time, which is why she wouldn't know how to hold her liquor.

I think that it's totally impossible this camera caught her at the precise moment she met her 'killer'. I don't know why some have assumed this.
 

I know. I say this with good reason. Years ago my ex husband killed a gator.
He wanted to save the hide.
Left it in a vat of water and the smell and look of that water after a few days was just horrible beyond description. It was a small gator.

As I said in a prior post, I don't know why they want people to be so
gratuitously grossed out over the prospect of people drinking and bathing or brushing their teeth in such water, but I am here to tell you...I don't think
this is the case.

That's why I am here looking for clues as to what is going on here.
 
apparently there's a post by someone who's sister works at a chinese radio station in LA and got to interview the coroner on the phone. the poster wrote out what his/her sister said.
the site is in chinese.(somehow i do think the chinese media has more interest in this than the western media)

http://forum6.hkgolden.com/view.aspx?type=CA&message=4284760

i haven't had time to go through it but this might provide some information on things that aren't released to the media yet.
 
They're all in the same building, just different lobbies. "Stay" consists of a few floors of the Cecil (I can't remember which, and I don't want to give misinformation). Both Stay guests and Cecil guests would use the same elevators.

I'm pretty sure she was staying in Stay. One of her entries on Tumblr talks about the gaudy place right next to where she's staying - lots of art deco. Look at Cecil's lounge - tons of art deco. I think at the time she posted that, she didn't realize it was all the same building/hotel.

Well that's a relief. I thought she had checked into one of the low-income long-term areas to save money. At least she wasn't doing something stupid. From that 2008 joeydevilla blog.

Two doors to the left of the Cecil’s main entrance, but still contained within the building was an entrance labelled “Stay”.


Stay on Main is youthful, high-style, and high-tech. our rooms are simple stylish and inexpensive. We offer convenient accommodations for the hip and spend thrifty traveler.
In-the-know 18-30 year old international travelers and domestic travelers looking for modern, upscale accommodations on a budget will appreciate our variety of room types and options.

Complimentary continental breakfast
Complimentary wifi in public areas and the 6th floor lounge
Complimentary iMacs on lobby mezzanine level
Marty coffee house serving specialty coffee, pastries, sandwiches and salads
Xbox games available for use
Flat screen TVs in all rooms
iPod docking stations in all rooms
Community lounge with 42" plasma screen and foosball table
Community kitchenette on 5th floor
Dual line telephones with voicemail
24 hour self laundry
Rentable lockers
 
It could be that the hotel is afraid of losing more tenants and SRO funding:
http://portal.hud.gov/hudportal/HUD?src=/program_offices/comm_planning/homeless/programs/sro
Just putting that out there.

I was under the impression that the hotel had found some funding that
allowed them to refurbish and forgo the Section 8 type moneystream and
the type of clientele that came with it.

I've read odd conflicting reports by the Alvin Taylor person who stated that
he was the only tenant, or one of the few that stayed.
But, seriously, would you not close them down if you were with Environmental Services until you had a health and safe occupancy certification?
I think he said that they kept the toilets running but that the sinks didn't work.
Then I'll be darned if he didn't invite some media into his rooms to take a
cameraphone video for them of him running water from a tub faucet before
they began "flushing" the lines.
For previously stated reasons, I find that highly doubtful.
Then the same video showed them allegedly running the water directly onto the street below! I find this to be inconceivable that this would actually occur. All I know is they showed a drainhole that emptied onto a curb, but
did not show where the hole actually originated from.
I am skeptical of media accounts because they have a tendancy to sensationalize whenever possible.
I'll see if I can find the video or it may be posted on the special thread dedicated to media.
 
Looking at Elisa's Tumbler account postings(if it is hers and I think it is)...I see she also mentioned sleepwalking-that she liked the German word for sleepwalking...and at one point she mentions someone who had left a place and was afraid..because they didn't know if the person was coming back or not.....to me depressive thoughts, etc. was all over her Tumbler account postings; and I still believe this poor woman went into some kind depressive-psychotic break. I hope she rests in peace whatever the findings.
 
But she would be in shallow water, so she wouldn't be treading water if she was alive in the tank. She would be wading. If her legs became cramped her best chance to continue breathing would be to turn face up onto her back. If she expired in that position her sinking legs and arms would prevent the body from turning over into the face down position, depending on the level of the water. The water pressure at the hotel is kept low to avoid splashes in the guest bathrooms since the showers, sink, and toilet are in the same relative area. That should reflect a low-level of water in the tank.

So with your low water theory, how do you explain that the tanks were 3/4 full when she was recovered?
 
I saw that the report was neutral but not that the reason for the neutral stance was due to "heavy putrification". Possible. But in fact I had read that temperatures in the area had been unseasonably cool during the time she disappeared and was found. They were moving onto the toxicology phase as there was nothing to be gleaned from the autopsy itself that would say if a crime had been committed.

It would be foolish of them to conclude an absence of malice based on the autopsy. The report itself was neutral due to heavy putrification of the victim. A lack of evidence is not the same thing as evidence to the contrary. That's why they haven't ruled out homicide as a cause of death and haven't ruled out accident/suicide, either.
---

I agree with your assessment of the video. To me she just looks like she's a bit tipsy on wine that mixed with her medications. I think she may have suggested a penchant for wine in her tumblr blog. Even if she was against drinking, at 21 years old, maybe this was her first time, which is why she wouldn't know how to hold her liquor.

I think that it's totally impossible this camera caught her at the precise moment she met her 'killer'. I don't know why some have assumed this.
 
That was me.. and the "covert" video is very telling.

A question about the pronunciation of EL's name.. I have been reading it aloud as 'el-EES-a'. I just reviewed other MSM sources that pronounce it the same. This YouTuber pronounces it like 'e-LISS-a'. Anyone have a source for how family or friends pronounce it? Could be just the way he hears it in his head, and at one point IIRC he says a totally wrong name like Allison, but might also give an indication of them possibly meeting.
 
What's up with her swinging round house arm as she first enters the elevator to press the buttons?

Who does that? In what situation and why?

I know. So weird, just like the whole rest of the video. The casual swinging of her arm like that indicates no hurry and no fear. She gives an air of "Hmm, hmm, hmm, what buttons shall I push today?" No rush, no particular place to go is the feeling I get.

But IMO she definitely gives off the impression that she expected the elevator to start moving because she pushes the buttons and steps to the back of the elevator. She only starts looking around and stepping in and out when she realizes the door is not going to close. I don't think she was trying to hold the elevator or expecting someone to come with her, but that's just my interpretation.
 
I was under the impression that the hotel had found some funding that
allowed them to refurbish and forgo the Section 8 type moneystream and
the type of clientele that came with it.

I've read odd conflicting reports by the Alvin Taylor person who stated that
he was the only tenant, or one of the few that stayed.
But, seriously, would you not close them down if you were with Environmental Services until you had a health and safe occupancy certification?
I think he said that they kept the toilets running but that the sinks didn't work.
Then I'll be darned if he didn't invite some media into his rooms to take a
cameraphone video for them of him running water from a tub faucet before
they began "flushing" the lines.
For previously stated reasons, I find that highly doubtful.
Then the same video showed them allegedly running the water directly onto the street below! I find this to be inconceivable that this would actually occur. All I know is they showed a drainhole that emptied onto a curb, but
did not show where the hole actually originated from.
I am skeptical of media accounts because they have a tendancy to sensationalize whenever possible.
I'll see if I can find the video or it may be posted on the special thread dedicated to media.
It was finally decided in 2011, that the property would stay SRO. Records indicate that the owner was sued by LACAN, in 2008 due to the supposed illegal conversion of the Cecil to the Stay.

http://blogdowntown.com/2011/11/6469-cecil-hotel-to-stay-residential-under-terms

I am trying to find another source that stated that another company has bought the Cecil since. I'll post that link when I find it.
 
Just a random input about sleepwalking... from my personal experience. (Yes, I'm a sleepwalker)

Last time I sleepwalked, I was on a vacation with my wife down in New Zealand.
I woke up from bed, put on my pants, wore my shoes and walked straight to the door. I managed to unhook the door lock, walked right out of it...and all the way to the lift lobby.

Thankfully, my wife woke up upon hearing the door shut and came after me, pulling me back to the hotel room. Back in the room, I actually took off my shoes, pants and went back to bed.

Woke up next day, telling my wife.. "Hmmm.. I dreamt that I walked out of the hotel room last night".. She looked at me and said "You REALLY did!!!!!!!!"
 
Great. Now I'm going to have that Eagle's song stuck in my head.:rocker:
There's more to this story, I'm sure. Something just doesn't make sense. If LE is fairly certain that this is an accidental death, why aren't more facts being released?
Something I've been wondering: How in the world can you get a body down such a small space ( the cistern)?
 
Well apparently everything is part of God's plan... so maybe it was God that purposely killed Elisa through His mysterious ways.

I would not put it as God's plan. If it is not a case of drug-induced hallucinations, I would say it is the Devil who tricked and led her to the water tanks.

The entity she was talking to at the 2:06 mark in the video could be the one who led her there. It seems she paused between 2:20 to 2:25 to listen to "instructions" before following behind him. Note how instead of turning gradually towards the left like one would normally do to make a turn, she actually took 2 steps straight forward to the centre of the passageway before making an abrupt left turn. That is why we see the left foot at the end (not a hand or other things that some people mistook it for) because it was placed forward in her second step in a straight line directly in front of her right foot, thus ended up being concealed by the right foot until the right foot crossed over to make the left turn.

If you are interested in my full interpretation of the video, it is in my post #724 here:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8938945#post8938945"]Found Deceased CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013 - #3 - Page 29 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]


To me, Cecil is a satanic hotel, something like Hotel California. Seems to be a channel for evil spirits. The journalist who stayed there, Jack Unterweger, ended up a serial killer.
 
I saw that the report was neutral but not that the reason for the neutral stance was due to "heavy putrification". Possible. But in fact I had read that temperatures in the area had been unseasonably cool during the time she disappeared and was found. They were moving onto the toxicology phase as there was nothing to be gleaned from the autopsy itself that would say if a crime had been committed.

I think that you are actually correct about the lack of abrasions found on her body, but it's the putrification that interfered with their ability to determine whether she died before she entered the tank.
 
Hi, I'm a newbie here (I found this site when someone on a different forum where they were briefly discussing the elisa lam case linked to it). I've been reading the pages and pages of posts and have some thoughts on it.



First, I think this definitely wasn't suicide as some people were suggesting.
-Elisa had plans to continue onto Santa Cruz. She seemed like she was looking forward to the rest of her trip.

-She was keeping in contact with friends and family and didn't seem like she was extremely depressed at this point in the trip

-Physically I think it was impossible. How would she have closed the lid of the tank after entering it? She would have had to had superhuman strength to grip the edge of the tank opening with one arm while reaching up towards the lid with the other arm. Most people, especially girls don't have that kind of upper body strength in most cases (I'm about her proportions and definitely wouldn't be able to do that). And this is assuming the tank was full of enough water to be able to float near the surface and suspend yourself near the opening. If it was only 1/2 or 3/4 full I don't see how she would be able to reach up to the opening hatch. However this is assuming that the tank lid was actually closed when the maintenance guy found her.

-In addition, where are her clothes? She would have been having to walk naked around the hotel or have thrown her clothes off of the roof. But if she is modest like her friend that posted earlier about her shoes said, I don't think she would have gone naked into a water tank.

-A water tank is definitely not what I would call an inviting place to die. If it was night time she probably wouldn't have even been able to see anything inside (it would look like a pitch lack hole). Why would you drop into a pitch black huge empty space, naked? Wouldn't the thought of being in a black hole with no way out feel claustrophobic?

-I also don't think it is a suicide due to the manner of the death. If you look historically like in medieval times, one of the worst crimes a person could commit was poisoning the town well/water supply. To kill yourself in a water tank means you're knowingly contaminating the water for all the residents of the hotel. This would be an act of anger/aggression/hostility towards the residents of the hotel/people in general. Even though Elisa wrote about being depressed, I never sensed any particularly excessive bitterness/resentment towards others. She seemed introspective not like the type to lash out. I also think, given her penchant for writing, she would've left some sort of note.



I think Elisa was murdered (or deliberately left to die).
This is what I think happened. In the elevator video, it seemed like she was playfully interacting with someone, possibly playing hide and seek (That's why she was poking her head out and jumping back in to hide, and also why she was pushing multiple buttons to hide her location). I think she was playing with someone who was around her age and seemed trustworthy, either a friend she recently made at the hotel (could have been a hotel worker she made friends with), a friend from an online meetup, or a friend of a friend.
Somehow they ended up hanging out on the roof. Probably just to keep hanging out, take photos, look at the stars, drink, I don't know. But I don't think she was forced onto the roof. She could've screamed for her life but she didn't (unless she did but people just ignored her) if she was being forced. I just know if I was being forced onto the roof I would assume the worst and try to get the help of the people on the hall rather than go to the secondary location with a threatening person. I don't think she was too incapacitated at this point because she had to have been able to climb the fire escape herself. She might have been under the influence of some drug though that she took either willingly, or unknowingly (I think she was probably slipped something).
Once they were on the roof, after some time, she succumbed to the drug and went unconscious. She may/may not have been sexually assaulted but she probably was since she was naked. Her assailant carried her and dropped her into the water and closed her into it. She may have woken up in the water or she may have immediately drowned or she may have already been dead. But even if she was alive she would've died within a few hours due to the cold water and her weakened state (at her body weight she probably had very little fat to help keep her warm).


To address some points people have made:
-I don't think she would've been hard to carry. I read somewhere here she was about 5'4" and 115 lbs. I'm about the same size. My boyfriend can easily walk around with me in his arms or on his back and he's just an average sized guy. The assailants adrenaline rush would have made him even stronger (you read in the news about mother's lifting cars when their baby is trapped under and stuff like that). Fear/panic can give people superhuman strength. So I don't think she had to have been the one to climb up the water tank.

-Diaz's claims that he heard a loud bang that night: I think he was either making this up (people can either do this deliberately or unintentionally have a false memory), or he actually did hear a noise and that was Elisa's body hitting the water or possibly her thrashing around inside if she woke up. Or it could have been the suctioning at the bottom that another poster mentione earlier.

-People have been talking a lot about her not wearing glasses. I don't think this is very significant. She might've been wearing contacts, or her vision might not have been so bad that she couldn't function normally without them. For example, if it was night time and she was just going to the toilet she might not have bothered putting them on.

-I do not think she was on her way to the shower. Her shoes didnt look like what a girl would wear in the shower (probably would wear flip flops) and she had no shampoo/wash cloth/towel/brush/change of clothes that a girl would normally take with her.



Who the killer was:
Like I said before, I think this was someone she trusted. I think she followed them onto the roof willingly (although her decision making skills were probably influenced by the drug). Still, to accept a drink/food/pill from a person, she had to trust them to some extent.
I think that it was someone she met at the hotel and quickly bonded with (or someone associated with that person who she trusted by association) or a friend she met online and was supposed to meet in LA. For her to feel comfortable with the person, they are probably in her age group and pretty normal seeming.
Also, I think they are pretty smart because they were able to think to put her in the water tank (hidden from view, destroys evidence, unlikely to be discovered). If it was some junkie from skid row I think they would've left her body out on the roof top or thrown her off the roof in a panic. This person is probably fairly strong to be able to carry her up the water tank. Since this person is familiar enough with the hotel to know the layout this well and how to get onto the roof and confident not to be discovered, I am strongly leaning towards that it is someone either staying there for a prolonged period of time (by this I mean someone who'd been there at least a week or even a log term resident) or a worker at the hotel who she came to trust.

In one article, an employee at a different hostel mentioned that she was friendly and hung out with them. So it seems plausible that she might do the same (hang out with employees) at the Cecil.
 
I've been following these threads for a few days, and there are a lot of good theories and detective work!

I was just down in the Fashion District about 3 days before they found EL--it was a weird feeling to realize that I was so close and that she may have visted the Fashion District herself. I've also read Suzuki Koji's Dark Water, and the similarities are eerie! It's not the only scary roof thing that has happened in his books, either. Utter coincidence in my opinion, though.

To me, it's just not very plausible that EL would have voluntarily gone into that tank. In my youth I had a lot of mental problems and took a wide variety of psychiatric and illegal drugs, and I was much shyer and more submissive than Elisa's self-portrayal in her blogs. I never would have gone in that tank voluntarily, no matter how crazy or high I was. I would have fought to the death if someone tried to make me. So I think she was already dead. I certainly don't think she committed suicide...from what we know, she seems to have been on a bipolar up-swing. I think that if she crashed and wanted to commit suicide, she would have jumped from the roof--you only need a quick burst of courage to jump and you know you'll die very quickly.

I haven't seen anyone talk about this too much, but I've thought the simplest explanation for the choice of tank would be if she died on top of the maintenance building. Then nobody would have to carry her up any ladders at all, and the tank is right there. If a boy I was kind of interested in had asked me to go up there to check out the view and talk, I would have done it. If I was manic, I might also have gone with someone I wasn't interested in. Lots of unfascinating people seem fascinating to talk to when you're manic. It's a lot like being on speed (I speak from experience--a class of antidepressants induced bipolar III mania in me even though I'm not normally bipolar). I feel that I would have gone to get my glasses, but maybe not if I was more interested in the person than the view. She may have done completely different things than I would--this is just what I feel.

I found a book called Cause of Death: Forensic Files of a Medical Examiner on Google Books that sheds a little light on determining cause of death with a body that has been in water. I wanted to know if a medical examiner could definitely tell if EL had been strangled (the answer seems to be "not necessarily"). This link should go right to page 105-the story of Rachel Timmerman starts there: http://books.google.com/books?id=EwOThAN8s08C&lpg=PP1&pg=PA105#v=onepage&q&f=false The gist of it was that the the ME needed to determine whether the victim was strangled/asphyxiated on Michigan state land or drowned after she was dumped in a federally-owned lake. This was an important distinction, because if her case was under federal jurisdiction the killer could get the death penalty. This was never truly determined, but the prosecutor was able to get the death penalty anyway (since overturned on a technicality).

I learned from this that MEs are amazingly good, but occasionally it's very difficult to determine the cause of death with total certainty. In this case, the examiner said that although he didn't find petechial hemorrhages, they may not occur if the victim was strangled with a towel over her throat (EL's killer could have used her hoodie for this). I read elsewhere in medical literature that the hyoid bone (contrary to popular belief) only breaks about a third of the time when someone is manually strangled. So, it could be...
 
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