CA - Court upholds Menendez brothers' convictions

[Noirdame79]

Why didn't the boys run as far as they could once of age.

They kept coming back for money.

It wasn't that simple. Their father had controlled them all their lives; they had very little real world experiences because they had not experienced a normal childhood or any kind of responsibility. Instead, they were emotionally and financially dependent on their parents (and Jose used his wealth and power to control them). How could they survive in a world they were unprepared for?

Lyle was heading back to Princeton in the fall and Erik was going to be attending UCLA; Lyle asked his mother to decorate his new condo for him. Clearly, something happened that led to the murders. And like most abused children, the brothers still longed for their parents' love and affection and wanted to be a part of their lives. Their anger and fear not withstanding, they loved their mother and father. There have also been instances where an incestuous father continues to molest his children until they leave home, go to college, get married. Lyle was no longer being molested by Jose, but Erik, who had just recently graduated from high school, had endured his father's abuse since he was six years old. People think of Erik being the size he was during the first trial but he was 23 years old by that time; at 18 he was smaller and thinner. He hadn't even been out of high school for four months when the murders occurred. Never underestimate the power a parent can have over a child, even when the child becomes an adult.

It's not as if Jose was elderly at the time of his death. He was 45 years old, weighed 200 pounds, was 6'1 and was in very good physical shape; the doctor who performed his autopsy noted that his body and organs were more like a man in his 20s. His only unhealthy habit was smoking, but he was not a heavy smoker in the way that Kitty was. He was a powerful, imposing figure, especially to his sons.

It's hard to understand unless you've walked in those shoes.

 

[DexterMorgan]

It wasn't that simple. Their father had controlled them all their lives; they had very little real world experiences because they had not experienced a normal childhood or any kind of responsibility. Instead, they were emotionally and financially dependent on their parents (and Jose used his wealth and power to control them). How could they survive in a world they were unprepared for?

Lyle was heading back to Princeton in the fall and Erik was going to be attending UCLA; Lyle asked his mother to decorate his new condo for him. Clearly, something happened that led to the murders. And like most abused children, the brothers still longed for their parents' love and affection and wanted to be a part of their lives. Their anger and fear not withstanding, they loved their mother and father. There have also been instances where an incestuous father continues to molest his children until they leave home, go to college, get married. Lyle was no longer being molested by Jose, but Erik, who had just recently graduated from high school, had endured his father's abuse since he was six years old. People think of Erik being the size he was during the first trial but he was 23 years old by that time; at 18 he was smaller and thinner. He hadn't even been out of high school for four months when the murders occurred. Never underestimate the power a parent can have over a child, even when the child becomes an adult.

It's not as if Jose was elderly at the time of his death. He was 45 years old, weighed 200 pounds, was 6'1 and was in very good physical shape; the doctor who performed his autopsy noted that his body and organs were more like a man in his 20s. His only unhealthy habit was smoking, but he was not a heavy smoker in the way that Kitty was. He was a powerful, imposing figure, especially to his sons.

It's hard to understand unless you've walked in those shoes.

Agree to a point.

But the jury ultimately decided that the brothers had other options and the murders were callous and not justified.

 

[Noirdame79]

Agree to a point.

But the jury ultimately decided that the brothers had other options and the murders were callous and not justified.

The jurors in the second trial only heard the testimony of Erik Menendez; the judge refused to allow any other defense witnesses testify until the penalty phase, AFTER the brothers had been convicted. Several jurors told journalist Robert Rand that had they heard the corroborating testimony of the family history and experts who examined the brothers and their psychological state, that they would not have voted for murder. So there is the possibility that they would not have been convicted of first-degre murder, but the judge and the District Attorney's Office were desperate to get a conviction the second trial, so they made sure that the brothers had virtually no defense.

Because of the recently passed discovery law, the Menendez brothers can appeal their case once again. Their lawyers have until 2020 to appeal the case under the new law.

 

[DexterMorgan]

The jurors in the second trial only heard the testimony of Erik Menendez; the judge refused to allow any other defense witnesses testify until the penalty phase, AFTER the brothers had been convicted. Several jurors told journalist Robert Rand that had they heard the corroborating testimony of the family history and experts who examined the brothers and their psychological state, that they would not have voted for murder. So there is the possibility that they would not have been convicted of first-degre murder, but the judge and the District Attorney's Office were desperate to get a conviction the second trial, so they made sure that the brothers had virtually no defense.

Because of the recently passed discovery law, the Menendez brothers can appeal their case once again. Their lawyers have until 2020 to appeal the case under the new law.

I understand what you are saying. But also. Alot of killers have a story of horrific upbringings. But jurors still don't show pity.

Example. How many women would be found not guilty if they suddenly showed up at their abusive partner house and shot them in cold blood?

So even if a woman has proof that their spouse beat them badly for years. And forced sex on them on multiple occasions.

A jury would still probably find the women guilty for coming back into town and killing their partner while said partner is simply watching TV.

Jmo.

So I sympathize with the brothers. But the system cant just pick and choose everytime. Jmo.

 

[Noirdame79]

I understand what you are saying. But also. Alot of killers have a story of horrific upbringings. But jurors still don't show pity.

Example. How many women would be found not guilty if they suddenly showed up at their abusive partner house and shot them in cold blood?

So even if a woman has proof that their spouse beat them badly for years. And forced sex on them on multiple occasions.

A jury would still probably find the women guilty for coming back into town and killing their partner while said partner is simply watching TV.

Jmo.

So I sympathize with the brothers. But the system cant just pick and choose everytime. Jmo.

That's true. But a person killing their abusive partner isn't exactly the same as someone killing their abusive parent. Parents are a child's role models, supposed to be the child's nurturer and provider, and it is the spoken and unspoken examples that parents give that a child will ultimately carry into the world. A kid is literally at the mercy of the parent and the environment provided; children have no choice in what family they are born into. You are, most cases, molded and influenced by your parents. Children believe that their parents are all good, so when a kid is mistreated, they automatically think that it's their fault and they can't see their mother and/or father as bad. And many abusive parents use physical force and emotional blackmail to keep the kids quiet, and project blame onto their offspring. Jose and Kitty taught their sons that doing anything to win, even if it was unethical, was acceptable; at the same time, the brothers were taught to suppress their emotions and mistreated; that sends a message to a child that they don't matter, they are not important, they are only there to do what their parents want, and to be what their parents want them to be. If they fail to meet these expectations, they will be punished. No wonder it all exploded.

The brothers stated that at the time of the murders, they thought their parents were going to kill them, as Lyle claimed he had threatened to expose Jose as a child molester, and his father would not allow that to happen. Jose and Kitty also owned firearms; Kitty in fact, kept a loaded rifle in the master bedroom closet.

It's far more complex than it appears to be on the surface.

 

[Augustgurl]

That's true. But a person killing their abusive partner isn't exactly the same as someone killing their abusive parent. Parents are a child's role models, supposed to be the child's nurturer and provider, and it is the spoken and unspoken examples that parents give that a child will ultimately carry into the world. A kid is literally at the mercy of the parent and the environment provided; children have no choice in what family they are born into. You are, most cases, molded and influenced by your parents. Children believe that their parents are all good, so when a kid is mistreated, they automatically think that it's their fault and they can't see their mother and/or father as bad. And many abusive parents use physical force and emotional blackmail to keep the kids quiet, and project blame onto their offspring. Jose and Kitty taught their sons that doing anything to win, even if it was unethical, was acceptable; at the same time, the brothers were taught to suppress their emotions and mistreated; that sends a message to a child that they don't matter, they are not important, they are only there to do what their parents want, and to be what their parents want them to be. If they fail to meet these expectations, they will be punished. No wonder it all exploded.

The brothers stated that at the time of the murders, they thought their parents were going to kill them, as Lyle claimed he had threatened to expose Jose as a child molester, and his father would not allow that to happen. Jose and Kitty also owned firearms; Kitty in fact, kept a loaded rifle in the master bedroom closet.

It's far more complex than it appears to be on the surface.

However, they were blasted away as they sat watching TV, the mother tried to crawl away. The murder scene is clearly an execution. It is not one of immediate self defense, you must concede that.

 

[Noirdame79]

However, they were blasted away as they sat watching TV, the mother tried to crawl away. The murder scene is clearly an execution. It is not one of immediate self defense, you must concede that.

If it was an execution, they could have snuck up on their parents and shot them in the back of the head. The overkill could have been a reaction of fear. As I noted, they may not have been thinking rationally; having lived all their lives with their parents' control, threats and abuse. Lyle stated that when he shot his mother, in his mind she was "sneaking around the coffee table", Erik stated that he just burst into the room and started firing in front of him. He said they were not watching TV when he came in, that they were both standing. Does that mean that was the case? Not necessarily. But that may have been what he saw in his mind. Again, PTSD. Just because they BELIEVED at the time that their lives were in danger, doesn't mean that was the case. They have both said themselves that what they did was not justifiable, but that they were also not thinking clearly. This is what is often referred to as an "imperfect self-defense".

If they really wanted their parents gone to inherit their money, they could have done it in a much simpler, cleaner way. They could have poisoned them, or as I said, shot them once in the back of the head. They did not need to shoot them multiple times if that was the motivation.

 

[Noirdame79]

Excerpt from a PEOPLE magazine interview with Erik in 2005:

Q: Do you feel you deserve this sentence?

No, I don’t deserve it. I’m not saying what I did was right or justifiable. I needed to go to prison. But place another child in my life and see what happens. I felt it was either my life or my parents’ life. It’s as if there was kerosene all over the floor that a match could light at any time. And my soul was burnt to death. The way I reacted was so destructive to all. It was the most awful devastation. I killed the two people I loved the most. I loved my dad. Listen, how much anger can you have towards someone after killing them? I loved my parents. And that is my real prison. I look forward to dying. Oh, people say that I had everything, that I was rich and lived in Beverly Hills. But if you had photos of the events of my childhood, they would be crime photos. I was dying long before the night I killed my parents. I don’t justify what I did. I needed to go to prison. And I can’t be okay without it.

 

[DexterMorgan]

I think it would be more sympathy if the brothers left without nothing and disowned the flamboyant lifestyle. Because some victims will not want anything to do with your money.

Some kids have left the nest at 17 and never looked back. But these guys seemed drawn to still wanting that money lifestyle while getting vengeance. Jmo. But I respect yours as well.

 

[DeDee]

My apologies for downsizing to save space.

Excerpt from a PEOPLE magazine interview with Erik in 2005:

Q: Do you feel you deserve this sentence?

No, I don’t deserve it. I’m not saying what I did was right or justifiable. I needed to go to prison. But place another child in my life and see what happens. I felt it was either my life or my parents’ life. It’s as if there was kerosene all over the floor that a match could light at any time. And my soul was burnt to death. The way I reacted was so destructive to all. It was the most awful devastation. I killed the two people I loved the most. I loved my dad. Listen, how much anger can you have towards someone after killing them? I loved my parents. And that is my real prison. I look forward to dying. Oh, people say that I had everything, that I was rich and lived in Beverly Hills. But if you had photos of the events of my childhood, they would be crime photos. I was dying long before the night I killed my parents. I don’t justify what I did. I needed to go to prison. And I can’t be okay without it.

I was dying long before the night I killed my parents.

That statement can only be felt by someone who experienced long-term PTSD and sees through eyes wide open since the abuse has stopped. Erik can look back now that he is free from the abuse and realize that he was dying at that time. He just didn't realize it back when it was occurring.

Imagine being horrifically mentally and sexually abused and suffering over a decade of the horrendous abuse then your abusers inform you they will write both sons out of the will. How dare them say such an abusive statement to their sons they'd been abusing since for___ever.

Verbal abuse and mental anguish will kill us. Erik was dying from it. Lyle was, too. It's just quicker to kill with a gunshot rather than with the incessant abuse.

 

[Noirdame79]

I think it would be more sympathy if the brothers left without nothing and disowned the flamboyant lifestyle. Because some victims will not want anything to do with your money.

Some kids have left the nest at 17 and never looked back. But these guys seemed drawn to still wanting that money lifestyle while getting vengeance. Jmo. But I respect yours as well.

That was the way they were raised. It was all they knew. And certainly, it was the way they were conditioned all their lives. It's hard to say what you would do in that situation because everyone responds differently to trauma. As I said, they did not have the skills to survive in the real world because they had never really lived in it, thanks to their parents' control.

I respect your opinion as well, even if I don't always agree.

 

[Scarlettabby]

I remember watching the first trial & looking back now...I can't believe Erik was only 18 years old and received Life Without Parole. He had just graduated high school that May and had never lived on his own. In that video of the parents/Erik outside a small plane, made 11 days before the murders, Erik looks really young...like a 16 year old. All these years later I don't think it's right that Erik (especially) should never be released & I'm generally a hard-liner/pro death penalty type. I find myself hoping that with the new Statute in Cali that they can receive a new hearing/trial. That judge gutted their defense and the DA was obviously desperate to get a guilty verdict after OJ. Erik should play up how young he was & that he was influenced by his older brother. Lyle...he scares me a little more...he'd left & went to Princeton & also did the point blank shots. But I do feel he was trying to protect his little brother. Don't think they should've had 1 jury either. I'm surprised their appeals in Super-liberal California never went anywhere.

Lifetime just ordered a TV movie to be made starring Courtney Love as Kitty Menendez (bizarre!).

By the way, Lyle just started (in January) a self-titled page on Facebook where he directly interacts with people (through his family/wife) offering support to abuse victims.

 

[flourish]

Re: Courtney Love. Yikes. I think I'll have to skip that one lol

 

[Noirdame79]

Re: Courtney Love. Yikes. I think I'll have to skip that one lol

LOL.

The two other TV movies made about the case (both of which aired in 1994, after the conclusion of the first trial) are both currently on youtube - Honor Thy Father And Thy Mother: The True Story Of The Menendez Murders and Menendez: A Killing In Beverly Hills.

 

[Augustgurl]

LOL.

The two other TV movies made about the case (both of which aired in 1994, after the conclusion of the first trial) are both currently on youtube - Honor Thy Father And Thy Mother: The True Story Of The Menendez Murders and Menendez: A Killing In Beverly Hills.

I'm really learning a lot from your posts and i am an open minded person whereby even if I have formed a solid opinion about something, my mind can be changed with factual information to the contrary of what formed my initial opinion.
One thing you have mentioned that is a game changer for me on the sexual abuse of the boys is that they found some kind of pornographic material in the parents bedroom. Young men or boys? Honestly I can't remember but it rang a bell big time when you posted that. Also, the boy band he sponsored that had made allegations. Was this brought out anywhere in court? Or is this something you've just heard about ? IOW what source did you get this from. It's a bombshell for me.

 

[Schmatz]

Only ever watched two minutes of court and immediately convinced and sincerely touched.
To get the most unbiased opinion, what would be your recommendation for me to watch or read?
Thank you.

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[Noirdame79]

[video=youtube;KavYPuL3XUA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KavYPuL3XUA[/video]

 

[Noirdame79]

Honor Thy Father And Thy Mother: The True Story Of The Menendez Murders (1994). James Farentino as Jose Menendez; Jill Clayburgh as Kitty Menendez; Billy Warlock as Lyle Menendez and David Beron as Erik Menendez

Menendez: A Killing In Beverly Hills (1994). Edward James Olmos as Jose Menendez; Beverly D'Angelo as Kitty Menendez; Damian Chapa as Lyle Menendez and Travis Fine as Erik Menendez

 

[Noirdame79]

Only ever watched two minutes of court and immediately convinced and sincerely touched.
To get the most unbiased opinion, what would be your recommendation for me to watch or read?
Thank you.

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Both books about the case (which were published after the first trial was deadlocked) are both out of print but Amazon carries them:

Bad Blood by Don Davis

Blood Brothers: The Inside Story Of The Menendez Murders by Ron Soble and John Johnson

The recent 20/20 documentary is a must watch - The Menendez Brothers: American Sons, American Murderers

Barbara Walters devoted an episode of her series American Scandals to the case; she corresponds with Erik

Aphrodite Jones did a documentary a few years back that shows both sides very well.

 

[Noirdame79]

I'm really learning a lot from your posts and i am an open minded person whereby even if I have formed a solid opinion about something, my mind can be changed with factual information to the contrary of what formed my initial opinion.
One thing you have mentioned that is a game changer for me on the sexual abuse of the boys is that they found some kind of pornographic material in the parents bedroom. Young men or boys? Honestly I can't remember but it rang a bell big time when you posted that. Also, the boy band he sponsored that had made allegations. Was this brought out anywhere in court? Or is this something you've just heard about ? IOW what source did you get this from. It's a bombshell for me.

The magazines were mentioned in one of the books about the case. It was just referred to as "gay *advertiser censored* mags" with no elaboration.
The prosecution attempted to allege that the magazines belonged to Erik (but if that were the case, wouldn't the magazines have been found in Erik's room and not in the master bedroom and den?). As I said, Jose expressed homphobia and taunted Erik about his confused sexuality, but a lot of incestuous fathers who abuse their sons do appear to be homphobic. They either don't want to admit their own insecurity about that part of themselves or they may view what they do to their sons as separate from homosexuality.

While Jose did hear of the Menudo sexual abuse allegations (and joked about it) as far as I have been able to find out, he was not named as one of the abusers until after his death, although, according to journalist Robert Rand, "Investigators confirm that molestation allegations did surface about Jose and an unnamed Menudo member during Erik and Lyle's first trial. The two brothers, now serving life sentences for killing their parents in 1989, contended their dad molested them." Several men involved with the band's administration or associated with it have been accused of sexual molestation by various former members of the group. One of the accused is group owner Edgardo Díaz. There is a photo of Jose and Diaz posing with members of the band, including a young Ricky Martin.