CA CA - Hannah, 16, Devonte, 15, & Sierra Hart, 12, Mendocino County, 26 March 2018 #3

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otto

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<modsnip> I can't see how a small girl who is possibly malnourished could have landed safely after a second-floor jump from either the front or the back of the Hart house. She must have been terrified out of her mind. But I maintain that there is no evidence from that that the abuse she was facing was sexual, and to keep asserting it has nothing to do with figuring out the motives.

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Terrified of what?

I think it's reasonable to question why a girl who jumped out of a second story window to escape two female adults (with a history of child abuse) is now dead.
 

katydid23

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You have no facts to support any of that. Additionally, reports indicate only CPS visited the house, not the police.

True, and I agree with you. But I will say that if it had been a heterosexual male/female couple, with 6 adoptees, many here would be speculating that the father had sexually abused one or more of them, especially if he had driven them all off the cliff.
 

Beth11311

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The latest information states that the women weren't belted in. Apparently that was an early misstatement. Also, the 90 on the speedometer was very likely due to wheels continuing to spin after the vehicle left the cliff, or other causes. The vehicle couldn't reach 90mph before it went off from only 70 feet away.

What was confusing about the seatbelts was that someone shared the accident report here on WS (unless that was proven to be false and I missed it). In that report, checkboxes indicated that both women were wearing their seatbelts. I wonder if perhaps further studies later proved somehow they weren’t. Strange no?


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Whiteorchids

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Devonte was always holding that little bulldog. I think they had a bigger one also. Where are they [emoji26]
 

Talulah

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Wow, in looking at those 83 photos from the Oregonian, I definitely see some where the kids are looking dangerously thin, IMO. They seem to be particularly in the more recent photos. #21 You can see J's skeletal structure of his skull at his temple. In #22, the boy's arms are so thin you can see their veins and muscle delineation. #24 they all look boney and emaciated to me. JMO

I noticed facial bones sticking out on several of the children in some of the other pictures. That is actually the main reason I believe they were malnourished. Ribs, collar bones, and other things can show in children, but I don't think I've ever seen temples and jaw bones showing so prominently in healthy children. Just my opinion.
 

otto

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You have no facts to support any of that. Additionally, reports indicate only CPS visited the house, not the police.

Sure, let's break it down.''

When the CPS (sorry, acronym screw-up) came to the door, no one answered the door. It is known that the family fled immediately after the CPS visits. The CPS visit was related to the children asking the neighbous for food.

A short time later they murdered all the children and committed suicide.

If driver Jen had control over Sarah and the children and Sarah didn't even have a chance to undo her seatbelt before the stopped vehicle accelerated off a cliff, are we thinking that Sarah was a wonderful mom - but too scary for a young girl to speak to - and Jen was the monster?
 

Presley78

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I’m beginning to wonder if the children were murdered prior to the crash. Piled into the truck and drove off the cliff.
I also believe their goal was to reach the water in order to sink the vehicle. Essentially making the discovery/recovery that much more difficult. I believe they intended on sinking vs being washed up on the rocks where sightseers would easily spot them. JMO of course.
Sucks they found another possible child. I was and am still clinging onto hope that the other missing children ran off and are hiding somewhere. They’re used to the outdoors and seems like the frequent requests for non perishable food from the neighbors was him stocking up. Maybe he was planning an escape? Maybe he alerted authorities and knew he had to leave. I mean I assume the mothers drilled into the kids heads that CPS and the police were to be feared because they would only go back into the system and have it worse than they did with the Harts. JMO


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Sillybilly

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This post lands at random.

TOS specifies that orientation has no place in our discussions.

Websleuths does strive to be as reasonably PC as possible. In that regard please refer to this married couple either by their names, or simply as "a couple" or "a married couple". Their sexuality/orientation has no place in the discussion.

:tyou:
 

bluesneakers

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Sure, let's break it down.''

When the CPS (sorry, acronym screw-up) came to the door, no one answered the door. It is known that the family fled immediately after the police visit. The police visit was related to the children asking the neighbous for food.

A short time later they murdered all the children and committed suicide.

If driver Jen had control over Sarah and the children and Sarah didn't even have a chance to undo her seatbelt before the stopped vehicle accelerated off a cliff, are we thinking that Sarah was a wonderful mom - but too scary for a young girl to speak to - and Jen was the monster?

I thought no one was belted in?

Also was it the police or CPS who showed up at the door?
 

Zelda1010

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I wonder why they would choose the route from Laytonville. It’s a much shorter drive from Leggett, about 28 miles. Going to Laytonville adds about 22 miles to the trip for a total of about 49 miles. Perhaps they didn’t decide to go to the Mendocino Coast until they had passed Leggett.

The article I saw gave the Leggett route based on cell phones. I think Laytonville is speculation at this point?


https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/05/us/hart-family-timeline/index.html
March 24
Traveling in a 2003 GMC Yukon XL, the Hart family is in and around Newport, Oregon, around 8:15 a.m., according to police.

They drive south along US 101 until they reach Leggett, California, and then travel south along state Route 1 until reaching Fort Bragg around 8 p.m. They remain in Fort Bragg for about a day, authorities said.

March 25
Jennifer Hart is seen on surveillance footage shopping at a Safeway in Fort Bragg. The family remains in the area until about 9 p.m., authorities said. Their movements at that point are not known.
 

Talulah

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True, and I agree with you. But I will say that if it had been a heterosexual male/female couple, with 6 adoptees, many here would be speculating that the father had sexually abused one or more of them, especially if he had driven them all off the cliff.

I totally agree with you. I actually do wonder if there was sexual abuse. It would certainly account for Hannah's night time flight from the house. <modsnip>
 

katydid23

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<modsnip>

If it was a male adoptive father, who did a murder/suicide, would people here be speculating a possibility of sexual abuse? I believe we would...
 

Whiteorchids

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Wow! read the last sentence of this partial article.

http://www.wired.co.uk/article/family-killers

The four types of family annihilator

Examining all the cases led to the identification of four distinct characteristics that drove the murderer, which helps to dismantle the common myth that family killings are motivated either by "revenge" or "altruism".

Self-righteous killers hold the mother responsible for the breakdown of the family and will often call her before to explain what he is about to do. Disappointed killers believe their family has let them down, and the killing could be sparked by something like children not choosing to follow religious customs. Anomic killers see the family as a symbol of their own economic success, but if they suffer some kind of economic failure -- bankruptcy, for example -- the family no longer serves this function. Paranoid killers are often motivated by a desire to protect their family from a perceived threat, such as having children taken away by social services.
 

Talulah

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Sure, let's break it down.''

When the CPS (sorry, acronym screw-up) came to the door, no one answered the door. It is known that the family fled immediately after the CPS visits. The CPS visit was related to the children asking the neighbous for food.

A short time later they murdered all the children and committed suicide.

If driver Jen had control over Sarah and the children and Sarah didn't even have a chance to undo her seatbelt before the stopped vehicle accelerated off a cliff, are we thinking that Sarah was a wonderful mom - but too scary for a young girl to speak to - and Jen was the monster?

I think we've delved a bit too far into speculation about Jen versus Sarah. By that I mean that we may think we know things we really don't know. We only really know that Jen was the main person the children accused of beating them and Jen was the driver of the vehicle when it went off the cliff. Beyond that, there are a number of scenarios that could be true. It could be that Jen was the "monster" and Sarah was abused and terrified too. They could have both been abusive together and jointly decided to kill the children. Or it could be some combination of those. We do know that Sarah did not choose to take action to stop the abuse. Why is unknown at this point.

Edited to say: again, recent reports have stated that the mothers were not belted in.
 

Zelda1010

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What was confusing about the seatbelts was that someone shared the accident report here on WS (unless that was proven to be false and I missed it). In that report, checkboxes indicated that both women were wearing their seatbelts. I wonder if perhaps further studies later proved somehow they weren&#8217;t. Strange no?


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Maybe a person checked those boxes on the report? Or???

Mendocino County Sheriff, Tom Allman[18:05:20] So, we are trying to give you as much information as possible and unfortunately when I said they were seat belted in, it was because

people wanted to know and we did have a person that said, they were seat belted but their forensic autopsy clearly says that the injuries they

sustained were sustained without any seatbelt getting in the way.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1804/05/ptab.01.html
 

emma.laurens

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Maybe a person checked those boxes on the report? Or???

Mendocino County Sheriff, Tom Allman[18:05:20] So, we are trying to give you as much information as possible and unfortunately when I said they were seat belted in, it was because

people wanted to know and we did have a person that said, they were seat belted but their forensic autopsy clearly says that the injuries they

sustained were sustained without any seatbelt getting in the way.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1804/05/ptab.01.html

I had written this way further up, but I think it's possible that both women clicked in their seatbelts to stop the "ding ding" noise, especially if the idea was to get some sleep, and especially if they were going to keep the car running for heat while they slept. If there was a weight sensor in both the driver and passenger's seats, they both would have needed to click in their belts to silence the alarm. They could have then sat on top of their seatbelts without strapping themselves in, and reclined their seats without being restrained. This would explain the initial confusion, where both front seats had the seatbelts engaged, as well as Sarah's position near the back of the car when she was found.

If Jen was gripping the wheel when the car went over, and Sarah was relaxed, the initial impact at the front of the car (which has been established) could have held Jen (still gripping the wheel) in place as the car continued falling, while Sarah was thrown right away.
 

otto

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I&#8217;m beginning to wonder if the children were murdered prior to the crash. Piled into the truck and drove off the cliff.
I also believe their goal was to reach the water in order to sink the vehicle. Essentially making the discovery/recovery that much more difficult. I believe they intended on sinking vs being washed up on the rocks where sightseers would easily spot them. JMO of course.
Sucks they found another possible child. I was and am still clinging onto hope that the other missing children ran off and are hiding somewhere. They&#8217;re used to the outdoors and seems like the frequent requests for non perishable food from the neighbors was him stocking up. Maybe he was planning an escape? Maybe he alerted authorities and knew he had to leave. I mean I assume the mothers drilled into the kids heads that CPS and the police were to be feared because they would only go back into the system and have it worse than they did with the Harts. JMO

The teenagers may have been drugged by the women prior to the women driving the vehicle off a cliff, but maybe they were awake and alert. There's nothing to suggest that the teenagers were dead before the crash. Autopsy and toxicology reports will take weeks.

Those questions could be answered with cell phone usage data. If the six teenagers were drugged then they had no cell phone activity after a specific time. If the teenagers did not have
 

SATA

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Again, why did they drive so far?
Just on the run, then realizing they could not run far with six big kids in tow?

Edit to add: The atmosphere with eight people crammed in that van driving nowhere cannot have been pleasant. I think it must have been hellish with desperate parents, irritated, snapping.

Did the kids see something sinister coming or were they clueless?
Did they think about running? Why didn´t they?

I have a thousand questions. Maybe a few of them will be answered.
 

bluesneakers

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Parents in Calif. cliff crash were not wearing seatbelts


Jennifer and Sarah Hart were not wearing seat belts when Jennifer drove their sport utility vehicle over a cliff on Highway 1 near Westport, California, according to the Mendocino County Sheriff's Office.

A study by a California Highway Patrol major crash investigation team determined the women were not belted, the sheriff's office reported Thursday.
 

Talulah

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Again, why did they drive so far?
Just on the run, then realizing they could not run far with six big kids in tow?

Such a big question. I think if the abuse allegations/proof hadn't come out, we would be here arguing about vehicle malfunctions or them falling asleep and accidentally putting the car in drive.
 
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