Dear
@BigKeyManatee , thanx for making such excellent points.
I will answer to your post point by point as you wrote them.
1. I wish we could find better pictures of his outfit. We might, if someone from LE asks for the whole folder. Some pictures probably need some re-touch and censoring, as it's been done for the picture showing John Doe with his jacket on, lying on the beach.
2. I can't find the item that is supposed to be attached to his left sock and I believe it's because it's covered by his jeans, but I can't tell for sure. I would really like to pick your brain regarding this.
3 + 4 +5 . I believe the picture taken on the beach took place at the time of discovery, right after they put him on his back. It is said on the autopsy report that he was found lying face down in the sand, with his arms above his head. I think the currents that pushed him on the shore also flipped his jacket a bit upside down. I am pretty sure that if he had been wearing it backwards it would've been mentionned by the medical examiner. But he is wearing an XL jacket and he has a slim build. Which means the jacket probably had the space to fold and unfold, rolling up in some parts here and there. The bloated aspect of the sleeves is maybe due to the large amount of water and clothings he had underneath. But again, I can't tell for sure.
6+8 The white plastic bag is indeed visible on the picture where John Doe's face has been censored with a black rectangle. It is also visible on the first post-mortem picture released on namus. the piece of cloth that ties the bag around his neck is almost not very visible but we are trying to work the pictures on photoshop to brighten some parts.
7. I believe the piece of metal is an autopsy artefact, probably used for some observations or to maintain the head and skull in place. I will ask one of my contacts to describe it more precisely, because I have no clue if my theory is correct.
9. I need to ask someone about the post/ante mortem wounds but you are raising a very good question indeed. It would also raise a second question that is related to your last point :
10.It's possible that the upper body parts show more decomposition than the lower parts, though it isn't mentionned in the autopsy report.
I heard from a medical examiner that when a person drowns it's usually their face that will show more deterioration due to the natural position of the body in the water, because the head will more likely get hit by rocks, etc. As for the fingers that are visible on the scene picture, I also have been told that at that point of decomposition, the skin extremities can be pulled off because they get detached from the rest of the derm layers. Same thing for the hair. in the autopsy report they say that it is "now easily pulled out", probably due to the abrasion of the sand and the early stage of decomposition. These are the parts that will naturally scatter more easily I believe.
But, if the theory we are raising now is correct in any way : he could've drowned (or been drowned) somewhere else, maybe in freshwater (bathtub?)...( or maybe by suffocation?) and then thrown in the ocean or directly on the beach. I find weird that their is no mention of foam/froth in the body, only "watery fluids".
Now, about the lips and general face condition.. Did the plastic bag cover his face at some point ? Maybe this would impact the face's or lips color ? All this is very puzzling.
Wow…amazing work
@jellabiafro!
Great that you could get additional photos released from the Ventura County MEO, as well as hearing professional input from your Swiss ME.
I’ve taken a look at both the new and old photos and wanted to throw some thoughts and questions out to the community.
- The photos certainly are raw, some taken even as this poor soul was still lying on the beach. We have new (limited) views of his clothed body as he was found, including a close-up of the Heineken logo from the white polo. There are two new photos of the lower body, depicting it clad in the Larri brand jeans and bright white, and possibly brand new Adidas sneakers, laces untied.
- Question: In the photo with the shoes, does anyone see any evidence of what was described as……“ on the side of the left sock is a band of cloth, blue with white and red stripes which has been tied in granny knots, forming a loop approximately 7-8 inches in diameter?" I have looked pretty closely, and unless I am mistaking seaweed, I don’t see this band of cloth evident externally to the clothing. I have a theory about this and will tie my thoughts together in closing in my next post, as this one is threatening to be very long.
- The newly released photo of the Doe’s upper body in situ on the beach is confusing, and I’m having trouble sorting it out. The photo shows some of the details of the black jacket found on the body; i.e. a bit of red plaid lining visible at the sleeve openings, and many of the brass snaps/studs. Personally, I cannot make out either the jacket front zipper or the corduroy collar. Anyone?
- Could the jacket be on the body backwards? LE has censored the photo by placing a black rectangle over the Doe’s face and head, making perspective difficult, and also obscuring where one would expect to see either an open or closed front zipper. The body appears to be in a prone position with both arms raised above the head. There are what appear to be open flaps or pieces of the jacket underneath the raised arms. Even if the front had a double placket with the zipper under snaps, I can’t see this as anything other than the back of the jacket where the front should be. Thoughts?
- Does anyone else think the arms are strange? Something inside the sleeves seems to be straining against the fabric and causing them to take a rounded contour instead of angular. Could it be fabric from the shirts or jacket lining bunching up? It’s almost as if the arms show a pronounced bloat that does not seem as evident elsewhere in the body. For example, the abdomen is markedly flat with normal coloration (see in photo “Other- velvet like money pouch”). Decomp usually arrives with green tinged skin indicated gas accumulation, but I don’t see that here. What other thoughts on this?
- Last observation about this new photo: a small section of the white plastic shopping bag appears visible just above and to the left of the blacked-out rectangle. It is a brighter white and smoother texture compared to the visible shirt fabric.
- Moving on to the photos labeled “at autopsy.” Two were released in 2016 for facial id purposes, and we have a new close-up of the face recently added. All three show the body on a metal table presumably as the clothing is being removed and sand and debris washed away. General question, and apologies that it’s not wholly specific to this case, but what is with all those metal bars? I can fathom the rationale of the one under the neck maybe supporting it, but what is the purpose of that rebar-looking one shown at a diagonal under the back of the head? Is it an autopsy tool? Off topic question, sorry, but I’m curious.
- The first (old) autopsy shows the right side of the Doe’s head atop, and the face against a wrinkled mass of bright white material. Sharper minds up-thread identified this as the plastic shopping bag described as: "Tied around the neck quite tightly up under the chin above the Adam's apple is a double wrap of cloth, cotton-like grey with vertical black and light red stripes which is attached through the handles of a plastic shopping bag like device. The bag is approx 13.5 to 15 inches, the bottom half has been eroded or chipped open. The material itself appears to have been taken from something like a sports shirt or some such device"
- Trying to see in any of the autopsy photos any bit of the cloth around the decedent’s neck, or tied to the bag handles is difficult. The bag handles are bunched together at chin level in the first photo. There is something threaded through them, and possibly something in the shadows under the chin in this photo. Possibly only strands of the ubiquitous seaweed, possibly it is the cloth, possibly both. Question: wouldn’t a cloth band applied “quite tightly” around the neck antemortem leave some kind of a mark? A crease or abrasion? What about if it was tightened around the neck postmortem? Leave a mark then or not?
- Regarding skin slippage and decomposition visible on the Doe (strictly from a layperson’s point of view). Is it possible that the body was only partially submerged after death? Picture the decedent lying prone on the sand with arms extended over his head. The body is situated at or just above the high water mark, with head seaward, and the lower portion of the body pointing towards land. The wave action with the tides would be enough to keep his hands, arms, and top half of his head consistently wet, and the rest of his head and body relatively drier. In my opinion, the difference in the amount of saturation to the skin can be seen in the photos. The arms have the most seawater exposure, and the result is the evident macération of the skin visible on the hands, and possibly causing swelling of the arms inside the sleeves. In the autopsy photos the top part of the Doe’s head and face appear to show more decomposition changes than the lower portion. There is scalp slippage evident in two of the photos, as well as significant swelling of the eyelids with complete loss of lashes. Comparatively, the skin of lips are not shown to be swollen, or even to have changed color. I wonder if this could mean that the skin of the lower face and the remainder of the body were not in a position to be continually saturated for the majority of time after death?
I look forward to read your next thoughts !
I will stop for now knowing that rambling about positioning doesn’t help solve the immediate question about this man’s identity.
But, I promise that I still do have a point to make and am searching for supporting details in the photos.
Instead of wearing everyone out now (myself included) with additional minutiae, I plan to finish up my thoughts and tie things together in an upcoming post. Thanks everyone for reading through and for any feedback!
Interesting comments from the Medical Examiner Office. Also good to have another pro looking at the autopsy rapport. The suicide angle is good to explore. How could he, technically, speaking have done that. Walking into the sea just like that....It's possible but not very likely. Jumping from something. The pier is coming up again.
