CA - Natalie Wood, 43, drowned off California coast, 29 Nov 1981

Discussion in 'Celebrity and Entertainment News' started by arielilane, Sep 10, 2009.

  1. redheadedgal

    redheadedgal Well-Known Member

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    her daughters were criticized / attacked for making money off their mother. that's not up for debate.

    and no one mentioned lana in terms of grief. no one mentioned lana should "get over" anything. (why the constant need to misrepresent others' comments?)

    what was mentioned was people need to take care of themself instead of expecting others to do it for them (as it's been suggested repeatedly in this thread that RW should assist lana financially) and she should stop exploiting natalie for financial gain:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/film/starsandstories/8916750/Natalie-Woods-final-scene.html


    as well, lana really should leave the supposed police work to the professionals instead of running to gossip sites for easy cash:

    (yes, radar online pays for stories and video)

    https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/20/fashion/natalie-wood-natasha-gregson-wagner.html


    none of the above is the mature behaviour of a caring loving aunt!! and natasha was very forthcoming in the same article about how she feels about lana and the (drama) she creates for her nieces. i would stay away too!!

    lastly, the second link also explains the idea and the purpose behind the fragrance and the coffee table book. no one should question either after reading imo.
     
  2. PaulR

    PaulR Verified Software and Computer Tech

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    Not quite. The captain of a ship has an obligation to rescue, he or she is responsible for the passengers on the ship, for instance. If you remember that case about the Italian ship captain taking the life boat while the ship sank, that's why he got prosecuted. The article talks about these duties. It's not about the duty of other passengers on the ship. Part of that is because the crew of the ship is also trained in proper rescue procedure which includes not getting into even more trouble because there are now two people who need rescuing instead of one.
     
  3. Noirdame79

    Noirdame79 New Member

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    The true captain of the boat was Robert Wagner. He owned it; Davern was his employee. He wouldn't let Davern search for Natalie or call for help earlier. There were no other "crew members" on the Splendour. And the person of interest in this case is Robert Wagner. Not Dennis Davern, not Christopher Walken, and not Lana Wood. Robert Wagner.
     
  4. Noirdame79

    Noirdame79 New Member

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    In one of my earlier posts, I mentioned a unproven paternity claim in Gavin Lambert's biography of Natalie (and just be forewarned, in addition to the lies and unsubstantiated claims, Lambert's book is also extremely boring); in case anyone is wondering what I was referring to, here's some further info:

    In Suzanne Finstad's 2001 biography, Natasha: The Biography Of Natalie Wood, it is mentioned that Maria Gurdin was involved with another man besides her second husband, Nick Gurdin (Zakharenko); she was also seeing a Russian sea captain named George Cetalpov. Lambert took this a step further by insinuating that Cetalpov was the biological father of both Natalie and Lana, with no concrete evidence to back it up. All Lambert did was share stories that Maria supposedly told over the years and used photos of Cetalpov and his daughter, Natasha Lofft, for comparision. Lofft, of course, seemed to revel in the possibility that she could be related to Natalie. Lambert makes this baseless claim in the book, and as Marti Rulli put it in her book, Goodbye Natalie, Goodbye Splendour, Lambert states that Maria may have confided to Natalie her "true paternity" (cough) before Natalie died and that "Natalie's life in Lambert's book ends with a probable new father. Not with a tragic death."

    When people who reviewed Lambert's book at Amazon questioned Natasha Lofft's claims, she wrote her own review:

    Natalie Wood: A Life
    By Natasha Lofft, May 23, 2005

    After having read all of the reviews I felt I must make my statement. Do "you" really think R.J. and his "family" would have authorized this book by Gavin Lambert if everything he wrote about had not been thoroughly checked out? Personally, I know that when Gavin interviewed me he was extremely thorough. For many many months he continued to e-mail me questions of all types. Also, during a luncheon with R.J.,Natasha, Courtney, Gavin and Mart I was able through interesting stories about the "family" to confirm many things for them. Take this as you will----- I know this is the most accurate account of Natalie's ( my half-sister) life.
    A fact, my Mother is Nina NOT MARIA for those who misundertood the book and relationships. How can anyone possibly believe "other" books about Natalie. Most of the stories in them are fabricated and/or biased toward her other sister.


    Notice how she refers to Lana as Natalie's "other sister". If the paternity claim is true, that would also make Lana her half-sister. But Lofft only wants to be related to Natalie. Hmmm.

    In response, Lana's late daughter Evan had a few words to say to her alleged "aunt":

    You are such a lying fame seeker. I remember you and you remember me. You were so desperate to be a part of the "Wood" family, you PURCHASED some furniture from my Mom LANA because it was once Natalie's. That's right sweetie, it's Evan. I can remember when you were married to Norbert. You didn't have ANY contact with Baba Maria for 15 years before her death. How do I know, because she lived in my house, that my husband and I own for the last years of her life. You never contacted her ONCE. Your mother did. She sent her knitted booties every Christmas. Baba Maria had Alzheimers and was prone to making up stories, as anyone who knows anything about Alzheimers would know. They would also know not to believe her stories. She had dementia for 20 prior as well. Shame on you. You want to contact me, get my email from Olga.You ought to be ashamed of yourself. Your own self proclaimed "half-sister"s dying mother. Where were you? I know, ashamed to contact her. And you should be. Hope to hear from you. I have many choice words for you privately. IF you have the courage..
    Evan Maldonado


    I haven't heard much mentioned about Natasha Lofft since; I doubt she ever contacted Evan.
     
  5. PaulR

    PaulR Verified Software and Computer Tech

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    The owner of a ship is not the captain of the ship. Captain has a very specific definition, and includes required training, licensing, etc. It also means the well being of the people on the ship are ultimately their responsibility.

    Again, going back to the case of the Costa Concordia, the prosecution was done on the ship's captain Francesco Schettino. The owner of the cruise company was not criminally liable, even though Schettino was their employee, because when you hire a ship's captain, you are hiring someone to do the very work of looking over the safety of the passengers as well.

    The only "true captain" was Davern.
     
  6. Noirdame79

    Noirdame79 New Member

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    Wagner was not a passenger, neither was Natalie. They were the owners. Davern was in their employ; a closer definition of Davern's position would be the boat caretaker. Furthermore, Natalie Wood was Wagner's wife, which means that she was his responsibility more than Davern's. Davern did what his boss, and the owner of the Splendour, told him to do, against his better judgment, yes, but this was his employer. Davern wanted to search for Natalie; he searched the boat as Wagner told him to do. And since Wagner was the one seen and heard having a violent argument with Natalie moments before she "disappeared" and fresh bruises indicate that she was assaulted, and Wagner was "the last person to see her alive", well, it's pretty clear who was responsible for Natalie's death. Davern is not responsible for Wagner's actions. Davern, even in his confused and frightened state, did far more for Natalie than her husband did.
     
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  7. Noirdame79

    Noirdame79 New Member

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    Excerpt from Goodbye Natalie, Goodbye Splendour by Marti Rulli:

    [Gavin] Lambert says Dennis remained "star-struck", and though totally unprepared for what happened that weekend, he has been around long enough to realize that the situation was ripe for exploitation.

    Dennis never exploited R.J. He kept silent with information that tore his gut apart for four years. Wagner brought Dennis into the world of acting. Wagner insisted that Dennis stay at home. Wagner enabled Dennis in every way for close to two years, and then got tired of carrying him. Dennis never asked for anything from Wagner, and Dennis worked at the docks and at the studios, and paid his own way. His need to tell his complete story was to prove that he did not exploit a terrible event. What happened to the participants aboard the Splendour on November 29, 1981, happened to Dennis in a personal way as well.

    Liz Applegate, Natalie's friend, told Lambert she knew of Davern's financial problems, that he owed money to his ex-wife who was out to sue him, so he had reason to sell out to reporters. Dennis was not married when he lived in California. Dennis did not marry until 1993, in Florida. Liz Applegate obviously knew nothing of Dennis' personal life, past or present. Dennis did not offer any to any report until 1985, four years after Natalie's death. What would Liz have known about Dennis' finances then? He never saw Liz after Natalie's funeral. A simple check of official records by Lambert would have proven Davern's single status before 1993.

    Lambert tends to group Lana Wood and Dennis Davern together in his account, as though the negative publicity each has received over the years - and the accusations against both of them of being money-hungry - would feed off each other. R.J. freely offered Dennis money after Natalie died, but Dennis quickly went to work as a general actor and made his own money. Lana never received one penny from Wagner after Natalie died, with the exception of some support dollars for Mud's (Maria) illness and then for Mud's funeral. Support for Mud was in Natalie's will.


    Clearly, the authorities don't view Davern as having any responsibility in Natalie's death; Davern has been completely cooperative and has helped with the investigation any way he can. Guess who isn't cooperating?
     
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  8. PaulR

    PaulR Verified Software and Computer Tech

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    Davern was not a caretaker, there is no legal definition to my knowledge of a "boat caretaker" while at sea. He was Captain and the safety of those on board, whether they owned the boat or were passengers, was his responsibility. And he did not fulfill his duty.

    He claims RW told him not to rescue, which as far as I know we have no independent confirmation of. But think of this. Your boss tells you to let someone die. Would you do that? Why? He's the owner of the boat, that's nice, Davern had a higher duty of care legally than to RW because as you pointed out, NW was an owner too and presumably she wanted to be rescued. So he didn't actually fulfill the wishes of the owner.

    And even if NW was just a passenger, what kind of person actually neglects their legal duty to keep the people on the boat safe because someone "told them to"?

    It's an excuse and a lousy one.

    Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
     
  9. Noirdame79

    Noirdame79 New Member

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    And Davern wanted to and tried to conduct the proper procedures; it was Wagner would didn't allow it. He was afraid of Wagner after the argument he overheard. He also considered Wagner a friend and was torn. He also didn't see how Natalie ended up in the water. Wagner also refused to contact the Coast Guard until the Harbor Master, Doug Oudin, begged him to.

    What kind of "husband" doesn't allow his wife to be saved? Or doesn't allow a search for her or delays reporting her missing for hours? Wagner didn't fulfill his duties as a husband. Wagner had a legal duty to not assault his wife or kill her. Who was more responsible here?

    The authorities don't consider Davern to blame for Natalie Wood's death; in fact Davern has fully cooperated with the re-opened investigation from the beginning. And again, who is the "person of interest"? Not Dennis Davern.

    The only to blame for Natalie's death is Robert Wagner, who killed her and wouldn't allow help to given to her.
     
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  10. PaulR

    PaulR Verified Software and Computer Tech

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    How exactly did Wagner "not allow it"? Did he put a gun to Davern's head? Was he afraid that Wagner was going to call him names? Literally, how could RW have actually, physically stopped Davern from rescuing NW if he really wanted to do it? He was afraid of getting fired, because the boat captain who single-handedly saved Natalie Wood would never find work again?

    And that is the problem. I don't believe Davern. Maybe the cops do. The cops also believed Karla Homolka when she said she was an innocent bystander. Lots of crooks have passed polygraphs.

    And person of interest means nothing. Look at the legal definition. It doesn't have one because it doesn't mean anything. Steven Hatfill was a "person of interest" in the anthrax attacks, Richard Jewell was a "person of interest" in the Atlanta Olympic bombings. Call me when the police use the term "suspect", until then it's a meaningless term and has been since someone came up with it during the 1960s to refer to Vietnam war protestors.
     
  11. Sailor Haumea

    Sailor Haumea New Member

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    But Fatty Arbuckle was innocent.
     
  12. redheadedgal

    redheadedgal Well-Known Member

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    1) the CC was a cruiseship owned by a large international conglomerant. hardly the same thing as a privately owned yacht. apple and oranges.
    2) i don't think there is any need to quibble over the word "captain". this was done earlier in the thread. davern was the employee. he wasn't in charge like schettino was
    3) from wagner's own lips

    http://people.com/crime/natalie-wood-the-latest-on-her-drowning-death-investigation/
     
  13. curiosityscat

    curiosityscat Member

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    I used to Love watching Natalie Wood and in turn Robert Wagner, but after Natalie’s death I soured on him, because everyone kind of knew he did it, but then LE didn’t do anything about it..(Yes, I get that they likely had no evidence to convict, etc).., but I was so young I didn’t know all of that..*shrugs*

    I’ve always thought it pretty clear that R.W. killed her..(he was a big philanderer), and he was super jelly of Christopher W’s acting with Natalie in their recent movie (scanners or something)..and then C.W.’s trying to get Natalie Wood to Step up & Shine (& not worry about her dang controlling her career husband)...

    Now was there a thing between the two? Christopher Watkins & Natalie Wood...Umm..*shrugs* I dunno (He’s a cool actor and all that, but C.W’s is a royal Nutter!..*laughs*.. and has only gotten further out there over the years...seriously, have you ever watched a candid interview with him??.*laughs*...there’s an obvious reason that the studios don’t really send him to do movie promos!..*laughs hard*..)......so I could see C.W. looking at N.W. possibly in an attracted way..maybe..(it’s logical, but gut feels like it is a stretch, I’m still not convince CW is straight) ...so, even innocently as a big brother encouraging a wounded, fragile bird...and I think that Natalie Wood likely responded to his kindness and encouragement...maybe not sexually, but in more of a growing confidence level, and to Natalie stretching her wings as an individual and person kind of way, and in my mind...

    Also, with C.W. Remember that he was an new Star rising ...and that R.W. was long time Hollywood, with Powerful pull at the studios...the metoo movement is a snowflake in a snow storm in comparison to the pull stars had back then, AND, also remember it was only recently within the last, what 10yrs that local CA law enforcement went thru a change in policy where they stopped giving ‘stars’ total preferential treatment, kid gloves & white glove service for fear of the hollywood studios money, power, and political influence..Hollywood of that day has carte blanche... Also keep in mind, Natalie’s death since she died, has continuously been trotted out every few years, it gets coverage, R.W. gets asked about it or raked over the coals about it, but then nothing is done..maybe a little info here or there, and some lone investigator looks into the details for a story, which seems to inflame people, but then ultimately, everything just goes back to silence with nothing legally done..again...(*and again, and again, *repeat)

    So, my thoughts are that When R.W. & C.W. were on the boat, and R.W. (drunk that he was), started to get all belligerent towards both C.W. & Natalie, and R.W. Started tossing around accusations and likely awful words about C.W.& Natalie sexually & an affair....

    ...I think Natalie Wood for the 1st time in a ages...stood up for herself w/her Bullying..and if that were the case then...yeah, I think R&W...did it...

    ...and I think R.W. pressured C.W. into keeping his silence, because R.W. was in a position star power wise (& financially) that he could ruin C.W.’s career, so I think C.W. kept silent..but, I also think that his star power is such now that he can stand on his own two feet and no longer fears R.W. can ruin him...so, he is speaking up, is slowly, and to hide his own culpability..(imho)

    That’s my take on it all at least...I feel Sorry for Natalie, and I feel Sorry for her kids who he had custody over, and were raised knowing that he killed their mum (imho), that’s a terrible complicated level of guilt & love...(guilt I’m sure, for loving the man who they know in their hearts killed their mum, but at the same time, he was the man who raised them)...again, just my opinion & theory..

    I hope that one day, Natalie will finally get some justice, but regardless, I hope that she is resting in peace...

    ***Note:The above is only my own opinions, thoughts, theories, views, and possible BIG Fish Tales; unless otherwise indicated by a website URL and/or reference to a direct origin source..Thanks!
    The TRUTH WILL OUT!, and There will be a Reckoning, in this Life or the Next!
     
  14. PaulR

    PaulR Verified Software and Computer Tech

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    I don't think it matters whether the ship was owned by a corporation or by a few people. The captain is still held responsible for the safety of the people on the ship. There's lots of reasons for this, but it comes down to training: a captain knows what to look out, for instance, when it comes to weather ("a storm of this type is coming, we should head back to port or safe harbor.") They know how to run the ship, they know the best way to rescue people if they fall into the water. That's why you hire a captain for your ship.

    Looking at this site (https://www.mptusa.com/captains-license.cfm) I see that training for a ship's captain to be Coast Guard certified includes:
    I doubt RW had that knowledge. I doubt NW had that knowledge. That's why Davern was hired, to do that work for them. Also, and let's be honest, so they could drink and enjoy themselves, just like you may have a drink on a plane because you know the flight crew is flying the plane and has your back.

    Davern's claim, from what I understand, is that he either knew or suspected that NW was drowning. If his responsibility are to people on the ship, then he should have rescued NW. If his responsibility are to the owners of the ship, then he should also have rescued NW.

    I'll say that even if RW pushed NW into the water, which we don't know at this point but let's say it's true, Davern still had a responsibility to rescue her.

    Does RW say he blames himself? Yes. I wrote an earlier post that I deleted, but I think a lot of us that have lost loved ones blame ourselves even if there was nothing we could do. RW was probably drunk by the time NW was in the water. As far as I can tell, he was not a trained lifeguard earlier in his life, or then. If he jumped into the water after her, Davern would have needed to rescue two people, not one. It's like having a loved one who got lost in the woods; sure, it's one thing to say "I'm going to go back into the woods and find them", but search-and-rescue is best left to people who are trained to do it. I say this as someone who attended orientation for a local SAR group and realized that it was something that physically I couldn't do. So in the end, that person going back into the woods to find their loved one will probably not find them and will require rescuing themselves. So we leave it to the people trained to do it, the "professionals" so to speak - and the professional in this case was Davern.

    I think Davern has tremendous guilt about what happened that night. Trying to shift blame is also natural and expected. That doesn't excuse it.
     
  15. LaLaw2000

    LaLaw2000 Louisiana

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    How could a Captain of the ship have prevented one passenger from killing another? To assume that he could is patently ridiculous, IMO! The Captain couldn't possibly guarantee a passenger's safety from another!

    **IMO, I do think RW was jealous of CW. RW and NW could have been having a disagreement over CW and he could have pushed her overboard.

    I believe CW knows what happened. He needs to tell it if he does.

    JMHO
     
  16. redheadedgal

    redheadedgal Well-Known Member

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    please provide a cite (aka proof) for your assertion davern had an official "captains license" for the state of CA and was acting under it when he was aboard the wagner's boat that night (which will prove he wasn't merely an employee tasked to drive the yacht and maintain it [hence being called it's "captain" informally which the media picked up and has continued to use all this time later] as many of us understand to be the case). tia.
     
  17. BeachSky

    BeachSky Well-Known Member

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    Exactly & in some articles he is called the “Skipper” of RJ & NWs boat
    so this subject of Captain maritime rule is mute. JMO
     
  18. PaulR

    PaulR Verified Software and Computer Tech

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    Call in and organize a rescue of NW once she was drowning, which may include jumping in the water himself. If he did see violence between RW and NW, then call the police using ship-to-shore radio, just like you can call in a domestic violence incident that you witness. Only with Davern, it was his duty.

    The MSM has widely reported him to be a captain, the police department have referred to him as a captain. Being a captain has an actual definition and you need a license for it. Are you stating that we should not trust widespread MSM reporting on facts in this case? Or just trust the facts that we believe in and not trust the facts we don't?
     
  19. redheadedgal

    redheadedgal Well-Known Member

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    1) he's a real licensed captain because everyone calls him "captain"? that's quite the logical fallacy. (see: circular reasoning https://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/fallacies_list.html)
    2) is duane "the rock" johnson really a rock? is "the refrigerator" perry really a fridge? yet MSM used and still uses them to refer to these men.
    3) so no actual proof he's a licensed captain then?
     
  20. colette

    colette Well-Known Member

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    From what I have seen over the years CW has never talked publically. I think he has talked to LE and would testify if needed. My feeling is he did not see Natalies ending but witnessed everything else surrounding it.
     

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