Found Deceased CA - Rachel Nguyen, 20, & Joseph Orbeso, 21, Joshua Tree Nat'l Park, 27 July 2017 #1

[Tbone144]

I don't hike at all, but the lack of discarded bottles and snack wrappers makes me think they kept these items with them.

Of course no one should litter in ordinary circumstances. But in a survival situation, would it make more sense to drop bottles/wrappers, or to hang on to these lightweight items in case they come in handy? An empty bottle could hold water if they happen to find a source of it. A shiny foil snack wrapper might be used as a makeshift signalling mirror, or for making some kind of marker visible from the air.

Hikers, would you hang on to such items, or drop them?

I hiked a lot when we lived near the mountains. Everything we brought in we brought out. Haven't hiked in the desert, just the cool mountains but we would pack in 128 ounces of water per person, bring along high calorie snacks, a foil blanket in each pack and a couple of iodine tablets just in case and a Swiss Army knife. One person carried a firearm due to mountain lions and bears. We packed most of it in a fanny pack and used Nalgene bottles with the loop on them to hang them off of us. We had the same kit for short hikes and 10 mile hikes, just in case we got lost or had to shelter down due to weather. Oh and a book of those waterproof matches. We got lost once going over a boulder field and spent a bit of extra time finding the trail. We were able to hike back up and scout to figure out where to go.

I'm hoping they were prepared but this many days in a hot desert...

 

[Seajay]

I don't hike at all, but the lack of discarded bottles and snack wrappers makes me think they kept these items with them.

Of course no one should litter in ordinary circumstances. But in a survival situation, would it make more sense to drop bottles/wrappers, or to hang on to these lightweight items in case they come in handy? An empty bottle could hold water if they happen to find a source of it. A shiny foil snack wrapper might be used as a makeshift signalling mirror, or for making some kind of marker visible from the air.

Hikers, would you hang on to such items, or drop them?

Most nature lovers respect the environment, and everything they bring in, they bring out. I've been camping my whole life and we were taught as kids to leave a place better than we found it. Before we were allowed in the vehicle to go home, we had to police the campground, leaving behind only our footprints.

But along with that, we were taught survival skills. Everything we have with us can be used in some way or another. If we were lost or in danger, we were to utilize what we had to be found. All 6 of us even had a whistle we took with us when we left the campground. We were to leave markers if we got lost. Sticks, rocks, we also carried a knife to cut notches in trees. We had to leave some kind of "breadcrumbs" that could lead to us.

Fortunately, none of us ever got lost so we never had to put our survival training into practice.

 

[JetsFan24]

I know they mention tracks that appeared that they had walked in circles. But that doesn't mean they continued to walk in circles. They may have realized their mistake and went in a completely different direction, and ended up miles and miles away.

It makes me sick to think they saw the planes and helicopters, but couldn't do anything to get attention. *heavy sigh*

This is a confusing case because I wonder how far they realistically could've gotten without succumbing to the elements. As mang have said, it makes a hell of a lot more sense to bunker down and try to create signals for help.

I wonder... is it possible that they met foul play and are not in the park at all? It just seems like they couldn't have gotten too much further than the search parties have searched due to the heat. I pray that they're alive and absolute beastly survivalists deep in the park. But if they have unfortunately past, I feel like they would've been found by now. That's why I'm wondering if someone abducted or harmed them at the parks entrance.

Anyone with knowledge of the entry points of the park might be able to answer this. Was the car found in a populated spot where most people enter the park? Are there a lot of people there everyday? It's possible they could've met with foul play if the park entrance is not incredibly busy and they were in the wrong place at the wrong time when they got there.

It mentions tracks walking in circles. Is that tracks over the course of a couple miles? Were they walking in circles around a large area of the hiking trail? Or were they literally walking in circles within say a half mile or so?

As awesome as hiking can be; hearing about stuff like this is a reason I've never been too fond of it. Nature is unpredictable. Oh and I hate bugs. Lol

 

[Seajay]

To me, it's also amazing that SAR dogs didn't pick up their scent and keep it to find them. Even in dirt, scent can be followed. IMO

 

[MelmothTheLost]

To me, it's also amazing that SAR dogs didn't pick up their scent and keep it to find them. Even in dirt, scent can be followed. IMO

With no scent and no items left as a trail, perhaps we should be seriously considering whether they are actually in the park. It's been suggested earlier in this thread that the car might have been dumped or left where it was and that something might have happened to them before they even entered the park.

In terms of survival, both Joseph's knife blade and a silver emergency blanket can of course be used for signalling.

 

[Wrigley's_Human]

We use it to mark new mountain bike trails so to me it would make sense to use it while hiking. It's probably not something most people would know about but being an equipment operator we use it all the time

A second thanks for posting this. I have nearly everything on REI's daypack checklist, but never heard of this wonderful idea. The UPS man delivered a neon pink roll to me today. I think the most basic safety tool, and one I carry on bike rides and even the most populated hiking trails where I am very familiar is a a whistle. A woman I met who had been assaulted said that she recommendes all women carry a whistle regardless.

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[Satchie]

Missing hikers may not be found for months, years, sometimes never. It's just not possible to search every square foot in terrain that complex and large. Here's an incomplete list of cold rescue cases in national parks: https://www.nps.gov/orgs/1563/cold-cases.htm

When the bodies are eventually recovered, I notice they've usually somehow wandered very far to an unexpected and remote location, ie sometimes fallen over a cliff into concealing bushes or rocks, that are inaccessible from below.

 

[AffirmationChick]

Missing hikers may not be found for months, years, sometimes never. It's just not possible to search every square foot in terrain that complex and large. Here's an incomplete list of cold rescue cases in national parks: https://www.nps.gov/orgs/1563/cold-cases.htm

When the bodies are eventually recovered, I notice they've usually somehow wandered very far to an unexpected and remote location, ie sometimes fallen over a cliff into concealing bushes or rocks, that are inaccessible from below.

The big difference from most NP missing persons, though, is that there is no forest here. That's harder to search and easier to wander very far in despite extreme temperatures. While there are rocks and crevices at JT they could be in, they are far more finite than an entire forest of trees.

Not saying there's no merit to the thought that they follow the typical "missing in a national park pattern," but I am growing more concerned that searchers have uncovered nothing at all. Forgive me for not remembering, but has it been released where exactly the last cell ping happened? With coverage so spotty, it may not mean much, but it's another finite starting point.


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[thekarmabus]

The big difference from most NP missing persons, though, is that there is no forest here. That's harder to search and easier to wander very far in despite extreme temperatures. While there are rocks and crevices at JT they could be in, they are far more finite than an entire forest of trees.

Not saying there's no merit to the thought that they follow the typical "missing in a national park pattern," but I am growing more concerned that searchers have uncovered nothing at all. Forgive me for not remembering, but has it been released where exactly the last cell ping happened? With coverage so spotty, it may not mean much, but it's another finite starting point.


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I believe it was stated phone pinged somewhere in the park. No other details given. I agree with you on being much different than a forested area. Tracks in sand can easily disappear with the wind, I am unsure about search dogs however if they have not searched in extreme temp areas such as the desert they are not as accurate when following a trail. These heavier-than-air particles, which contain this person's scent, will normally be on the ground or nearby vegetation.. nothing much on the ground there and unsure about blowing sand. I could be totally off though. Just seems like a tough area for dogs. The desert is a very easy place to wander for many miles if lost. I once found myself photographing in the rocks of Sedona and to my surprise couldn't find the trail. Luckily compass allowed me to bushwhack back to the direction I started from. I was close to 1.5 miles off from the trail. It's very easy to do and I'm an experienced hiker. These two may be 4-5 miles in. Needle in a haystack.


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[thekarmabus]

For those of you curious about the trail itself, here is a good article about the trail

https://backpackers.com/spring-hikes-the-maze-loop-in-joshua-tree-national-park-california/


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[Jenjen37]

Is the area around the park very populated? Is there much crime?

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[roadrunnermt]

I wonder if they are using both types of dogs, ones that search for living people and cadaver dogs.

If tracks were in circles, is it possible they are outside the park?

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[thekarmabus]

I wonder if they are using both types of dogs, ones that search for living people and cadaver dogs.

If tracks were in circles, is it possible they are outside the park?

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That park is HUGE... like 1100 square miles


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[Elainera]

I think it's less likely that they had an accident - fell from a cliff or into some crevice or something - because they are two people. Not impossible but less likely that they would both fall together down or into something.

They must be walking around - or did. imo

The couple that was lost in Osborne Lookout Park (which is south of JTNP) walked almost all the way down to the Mexican border through roughly 30 miles of sand dunes, which took them 5 days. (I linked to their story some posts back.) They had no water but didn't have the extreme heat to deal with. My guess would be Rachel and Joseph are probably within a 10 mile radius of the car.

 

[La Louve]

Speculating: They could have gotten lost on Thursday, then went down into a slot to look for water Friday, then gotten hit by a flash flood during Saturday's thunderstorms and perished.

IOW perhaps this was a series of unfortunate mistakes combined with a deadly environment.

 

[NadirCake]

Does anyone know what kind of carrion birds are in the area? How long does it take those carrion birds to find remains that are out in the open? What about if the remains aren't visible from the air?

What kind of ground scavengers are in the area?

I don't mean to sound morbid, but maybe it's a positive sign that searchers haven't reported seeing circling vultures (or whatever kind of bird.)

 

[Gardener1850]

Are they letting non search and rescue people back in the park yet? At this point, I'm guessing they will be found by a non-searcher. Someone else hiking will likely stumble upon their remains. JMO.

 

[Seajay]

Missing hikers may not be found for months, years, sometimes never. It's just not possible to search every square foot in terrain that complex and large. Here's an incomplete list of cold rescue cases in national parks: https://www.nps.gov/orgs/1563/cold-cases.htm

When the bodies are eventually recovered, I notice they've usually somehow wandered very far to an unexpected and remote location, ie sometimes fallen over a cliff into concealing bushes or rocks, that are inaccessible from below.

Thanks for the link. There sure have been a lot of people who went out hiking and never were heard from again. I just hope our two hikers aren't added to the list.

 

[Seajay]

For those of you curious about the trail itself, here is a good article about the trail

https://backpackers.com/spring-hikes-the-maze-loop-in-joshua-tree-national-park-california/


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Oh. This doesn't sound good at all. They pretty much say hiking Maze Loop is not possible during the summer because of the heat. It's not usually done. Then it sounds like many spots along the trail aren't clear at all, that you actually don't know if you are even on the trail. This trail honestly sounds pretty impossible. And if you aren't an experienced hiker, you shouldn't even attempt this trail. It also says it's very remote and not used as often as many of the others. So none of this sounds good for our hikers. IMO

 

[thekarmabus]

Missing hikers may not be found for months, years, sometimes never. It's just not possible to search every square foot in terrain that complex and large. Here's an incomplete list of cold rescue cases in national parks: https://www.nps.gov/orgs/1563/cold-cases.htm

When the bodies are eventually recovered, I notice they've usually somehow wandered very far to an unexpected and remote location, ie sometimes fallen over a cliff into concealing bushes or rocks, that are inaccessible from below.

22 cases in 47 years ( approx) isn't too many considering the vast amount of land area and the millions of people that use NP trail system every year. I believe this missing case is the unfortunate makings of a perfect storm. It was over 24 hours before anyone realized they were missing, terrible heat conditions that differ from years past and perhaps inexperienced hikers.
People, PLEASE have a check in person , at very least use an online tracking app , many you can Access trail database without an internet connection. Be prepared. In this day and age of technology one can dramatically lower their risks of being lost.
I so hope they are found alive huddled in a cove somewhere.


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