In looking for tonights Crime & Justice with Mary Z, I only found transcript of show with Dr. Wecht aired 3/13/18.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1803/13/ptab.01.html
PRIMETIME JUSTICE WITH ASHLEIGH BANFIELD
Pattern of Bombings in Texas Investigated by Police;
Zahau Family Fighting for Rebecca`s Justice; Murder Or Suicide?; Deadly Tinder Affair; Bizarre Motive Revealed. Aired 6-8p ET
Aired March 13, 2018 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
Up next; we are trying to unravel the mystery of how Rebecca Zahau died. And could she have actually done this to herself? Tie her hands and feet and then just hurl herself off a balcony naked? We will dig into that in a moment.
Also you can now listen to our show any time. Download our podcast on Apple podcast, iheart radio, Stitcher, Tune IN or wherever you get your
podcast for your CRIME AND JUSTICE fix.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:24:21] BANFIELD: You would not think that it would take six and a half years and a whole lot of back and forth between experts and still no agreement on how a woman was killed especially when that woman was found naked and bound and gagged and hanging from the balcony of her boyfriend`s
mansion. But in San Diego, the experts refuse to agree that this beautiful woman, Rebecca Zahau was in fact murdered even after her family brought in
an expert into the courtroom who said the knots that bound her were indeed nautical. And it`s really weird to see video in a courtroom of the
mannequin, a mannequin that is very, very life like complete with painted toenails and painted fingernails. The judge requesting they at least drape
the midsection.
But this is what happened in this case. A boat captain, a retired boat captain coming in and actually binding the mannequin at the hands and at
the feet to show this is not only difficult. This is usually done by people who know nautical knots. Have a listen to what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[19:25:35] LINDSEY PHILPOTT, RETIRED BOAT CAPTAIN: When you use figure eight wraps, what happens is that you cross the individual wraps and you
create more friction on the object that you`re tying to as to make it more difficult for the object come apart.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: To say that`s something creepy for a jury to absorb is an understatement.
With me now Miles Himmel. He is a reporter from KFMB AM 760.
Miles, as just a bit of backdrop because I think a lot of people are really into this case. You know, Rebecca Zahau was found hanging from that
balcony. And even though she was bound and gagged and naked, and tied up so intricately, the M.E. in that jurisdiction said that was suicide. And
in the civil case that her family has launched against the brother of her boyfriend who she and her family, you know, the family is pointing to him
as the killer, they say, they have done this. They brought all this sort of demonstration in. What`s the newest thing happening in this case?
MILES HIMMEL, REPORTER, KFMB, AM 760: Yes. Well, as of last week, you talk about the doll. This was fascinating, an $8,000. It`s actually a sex
doll that local company here makes. Like you talked about they covered it up. They showed how these knots were done and showed the rope would expand
this way and that way and would crack certain ways. And that was fascinating. And then this week, this week`s case they have gone over
$60,000 worth of exports coming into the courthouse. It`s fascinating week. And by the way, they are thinking later this week that Shacknai,
Adam Shacknai will take the stand.
BANFIELD: And Adam Shacknai is the brother of Jonah Shacknai (ph) just again to do some background here. Jonah is the boyfriend who owns the
mansion. And Jonah was Rebecca`s boyfriend and it was Jonah`s 6-year-old son who accidentally died in Rebecca`s care. And the theory by Rebecca`s
family goes that Jonah`s brother was so angry at what his brother`s girlfriend neglected to do, look after this little 6-year-old boy and he
died after a terrible fall that he killed Rebecca.
To be clear, the police never charged Adam Shacknai. To be clear, the police never called this a murder and to be clear, the M.E. never called it
a murder. And then this case comes along and another medical examiner, another expert, a pathologist name Dr. Wecht on the stand and says, no, no,
no. This was no suicide. Take me from there.
HIMMEL: Yes. That`s been the case. Everybody here in San Diego, at least if you not going to charge someone with murder, if you don`t believe you
have enough evidence against the Shacknais or whomever, just lever it open. But to call it a suicide, and everybody has been saying, where -- this is a
girl that had a strong religious background. Suicide is not within the realm if you talk to friends or family and why they made that leap is
beyond me. At least leave it open so you have Mr. Wecht take the stand like you talked about. He comes in and says this doesn`t look right. And
that`s been the whole case going on. And then you had (INAUDIBLE) to the courthouse today explaining the physics behind the hanging. Everybody here
in San Diego is saying why did they make that conclusion that it`s suicide?
BANFIELD: And so that I`m also clear, Miles, we are - think what a couple of weeks into this case now. It`s a civil case. It`s wrongful death case.
This is Rebecca`s family angry at the Shacknai brothers, but particularly one that they are pointing the finger and they are suing about Rebecca`s
death.
When (INAUDIBLE) took the stand, I want to play a quick moment, it was all about how the body of Rebecca was exhumed three months after the medical
examiner in your jurisdiction did the work and, you know, sign the certificates. So the body is exhumed and examined again by (INAUDIBLE) who
makes an opinion that ended up changing. So this is what this moment in court was about with Cyril Wecht on the stand. Have a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. CYRIL WECHT, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: In my opinion, Rebecca Zahau`s death was a homicide. She was manually strangled and then it was set-up to
appear to be a suicide and hanging.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In sight of your knowledge about these hemorrhages (ph), you concluded that her cause of death was a fixation by hanging. Is
that correct?
[19:30:07] WECHT: Argumenta and that`s an answer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: So what is interesting, Miles, is that that change which is exactly why I want to bring in Forensic Pathologist Cyril Wecht who joins
me now live.
Dr. Wecht, it`s good to have you on the program. I do want to ask you about your work in relation to the Rebecca Zahau case. I don`t understand
your science. You have to be way smarter than I am to do what you do. But I do understand changes in opinion and I`m always curious about that.
Initially, you said when you did your exam that Rebecca died from asphyxiation due to hanging and that her manner of death was undetermined.
Don`t know if it`s suicide, don`t know if it`s homicide. That manner was a tricky business. But then, your opinion changed ultimately. I think it
was two years later you said that you were leaning towards homicide instead of undetermined. And then, now, here we are five years later and it says
after additional research you have changed your opinion to the fact that she was strangled and that she was hit in the head. How did you come to
those determinations and why it would have taken so many years?
CYRIL WECHT, M.D., FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Ashleigh, I did the second autopsy back in 2011 and while I did agree at that time that the cause of
death appeared to be asphyxiation by hanging, I said that the manner of death should have been left as undetermined. I was extremely critical of
the fact that in just seven weeks they signed this case out and called it a suicide with no further investigation. It was six years later that I
received many additional materials and information from other experts. They`re not tying expert, they questioned document expert, that you know,
she save him, can you save her? The DNA expert, the kinesiologist, the forensic scientific criminalist, and I put that altogether.
The medical research led me also to the conclusion that this was a manual strangulation. While I had questions which I raised in 2011. That was
read in court yesterday in my report to Attorney Anne Bremner. I said that there was a strong likelihood that this could be manual strangulation. I
said that in 2011. What brought me to the conclusion that I was able to testify with reasonable medical certainty at this time was research that
showed that the cricoid cartilage, which is the first cartilaginous ring at the top of the trachea, well down below the Adam`s apple, was fractured.
And a -- I`ll just tell you very quickly, in one exhaustive research study by the top medical examiner`s office in Canada, of 2700 cases they found
one case in which the cricoid cartilage was fractured. And most of the forensic pathology textbooks including one that I have written, don`t even
mention that cricoid cartilage as being fractured in hanging.
The other thing is that when you review everything and give every detail ample consideration, think of this, this young woman, 5 -- 32 years old,
5`3", she`s got her ankles bound so tightly that the calves are contused, she`s got her wrist bound behind her back, and she`s got that shirt
overlying the ligature around her neck three times stuffed into her mouth, and there she is. And they have her getting up over a three-foot balcony
bound like that and then hurling herself down. The body was down nine feet, two inches, 26 inches from the ground. If you have a body that
hurdles in that fashion completely out of control in one fast swoop, you`re going to have probably partial decapitation. You`re going to have one or
more fractured dislocations of the cervical vertebrae as the neck is pulled up. She had no injuries at all to the cervical vertebrae. So --
BANFIELD: That`s a lot of information, then I`m trying to process it all and I have about 1,000 more questions but I`m out of time. So, I`m going
to ask you this, Dr. Wecht, will you come back and talk to me a little bit more about this? Because I want to know why you didn`t see that little
piece of cartilage broken the first time around or not broken the first time around. And I also want to know all about the notion for the lay guy,
like me, I`m with you. It sounds crazy that somebody would do this to herself in that manner and make it.
WECHT: And we think -- we think, too, Ashleigh, that she was nude. Point that --
(CROSSTALK)
BANFIELD: Yes. That whole part, too. And listen, everybody has a different, you know, thing but --
WECHT: Women do not commit suicide nude. Yes, thank you.
BANFIELD: That`s kind of where I`m at as well. But I`m out of time, but will you come back again because I do want to talk about all these things.
WECHT: Yes, with pleasure.
BANFIELD: This case is ongoing.
WECHT: My pleasure to be with you.
BANFIELD: And it will be interesting to see what happens. Dr. Wecht, thank you so much for that.
WECHT: My thanks. Thank you.
BANFIELD: My thanks to Miles Himmel as well.
