Cadaver dog hit on scent in DBs bedroom

[justamommy]

Questions for one of the experts....

Could LE have taken clippings or shavings of the carpet that might not have been noticed by us during the video after the search?

If they did that, would it have to be on the inventory of items taken?

I remember the second dog in and out quickly during the 17 hour search. Was that probably to get confirmation?

What would happen if they didn't get confirmation from second dog? Would they bring in another dog? Kinda like 2 out of 3.

If the HRD hits, can it then track that particular scent and only that scent from that body elsewhere ie the dumpster, the woods?

I'm sorry if these questions sound mundane. I am also sorry if they have already been answered, I'm just coming onto this thread. I am fascinated by this. I watched the video of the spainels in the orphanage investigation a few posts up. I can't believe how miniscule the scent has to be and how quickly the dogs found it. TIA

 

[Oriah]

Questions for one of the experts....

Could LE have taken clippings or shavings of the carpet that might not have been noticed by us during the video after the search?

If they did that, would it have to be on the inventory of items taken?

I remember the second dog in and out quickly during the 17 hour search. Was that probably to get confirmation?

What would happen if they didn't get confirmation from second dog? Would they bring in another dog? Kinda like 2 out of 3.

If the HRD hits, can it then track that particular scent and only that scent from that body elsewhere ie the dumpster, the woods?

I'm sorry if these questions sound mundane. I am also sorry if they have already been answered, I'm just coming onto this thread. I am fascinated by this. I watched the video of the spainels in the orphanage investigation a few posts up. I can't believe how miniscule the scent has to be and how quickly the dogs found it. TIA

BBM:
Yes. And they could have also simply documented an alert while isolating a scent.

And no, not exactly. Items could have been taken into evidence and we might not know what they were. But- they're likely inventoried by the LE agency responsible. Chain of command doesn't mean that the general public is provided that info, though... So there is a good chance there was evidence siezed that we cannot have access to right now.

That's just my experience, though.
HTH.

 

[Nore]

I can't reproduce this article because of copyright laws, but I am citing it below. If you can get a hold of it, it explains the most current information on VOC's (volatile organic compounds) including how they are formed, how dogs use them to track (this is mostly about dogs being able to smell disease, but they do go into tracking in general). This is written by scientists from the Department of Applied Biological Chemistry, Graduate School of Agricultural and Life Sciences at The University of Tokyo, and published by the Oxford University, and is then peer-reviewed. (In other words, it's not just some random web site).

This is just ONE article I used to learn about cadaver dogs. I know a few other posters have also looked stuff up in their university libraries, and they have found similar information.

I am not trying to say that out experts are wrong - I just think that there are mixed messages. Dogs are capable of some amazing stuff, but they are not infallible. And it's not just because of the trainer/handler (although a good trainer is absolutely necessary), there are limitations to what dogs can do. And a dog simply can NOT tell the difference between cadaverine that comes from a dead body and cadaverine that comes from urine. It is not possible.

Dogs may NOT hit on areas where a dead body was, and they may hit on places where no dead body ever was. It happens. It doesn't mean that dogs are useless or fakes. There is a lot of documentation that proves that dogs are indeed excellent trackers. (Wasps are too - who knew?). As I said before, I would totally want track dogs called in if I was searching for someone. But they make mistakes.

Take it for what it's worth. I am tired of beating my head against the wall. And this is just one of the articles. I have about 15 more. It's an interesting subject, you might want to research it.

Shirasu, M., & Touhara, K. (2011). The scent of disease: volatile organic compounds of the human body related to disease and disorder. Journal Of Biochemistry, 150(3), 257-266


ETA: I should say, a dog COULD probably be trained to NOT hit on the additional compounds present in every other substance that could possibly have cadaverine compounds in it. So, possibly, a dog could be trained to HIT on cadaverine, except when the odor of urine is also present, for example. But that seems like a bad idea. In many deaths, the victim vomits or urinates at or immediately before death.

--------------------

How did you like the dogs in the Peterson case? I thought they were fantastic.

 

[justamommy]

BBM:
Yes. And they could have also simply documented an alert while isolating a scent.

And no, not exactly. Items could have been taken into evidence and we might not know what they were. But- they're likely inventoried by the LE agency responsible. Chain of command doesn't mean that the general public is provided that info, though... So there is a good chance there was evidence siezed that we cannot have access to right now.

That's just my experience, though.
HTH.

Oriah,

Thanks for your answers.

About the question of the second dog (could be same dog that originally hit, I don't know) on the search day.... Would that have been to confirm an original hit or is original hit enough as far as evidence? Or I guess they could have had the dog to check out another area in the home... Please excuse my rambling, just wondering about this. TIA

 

[Oriah]

Oriah,

Thanks for your answers.

About the question of the second dog (could be same dog that originally hit, I don't know) on the search day.... Would that have been to confirm an original hit or is original hit enough as far as evidence? Or I guess they could have had the dog to check out another area in the home... Please excuse my rambling, just wondering about this. TIA

A second (or third, or fourth, lol) dog could have been brought in for many reasons. To clarify a previous alert, to search a different area, to search for a different scent, to relieve a tired dog or handler- all kinds of reasons.

Case example: working a suspected murder site, body missing. LE brings out a tracking dog to try and track the suspect. Suspect gets away, but tosses suspected murder weapon along the way. Evidence recovery dog finds the weapon. HRD dog alerts to blood on weapon, not visible to naked eye. ATF dog alerts to trace methamphetamine on handle (transferred from suspect.) LE brings dogs back to residence where murder was suspected to occur. HRD dog alerts in bedroom, then bathroom, then windowsill, then outside the residence at drainage and leach field. ATF dog alerts in living room and kitchen and garage.

See how it all starts to come together?

Granted, many local LE agencies do not have the K9 resources available for this extensive use of scent dogs. But our federal government does.

 

[justamommy]

A second (or third, or fourth, lol) dog could have been brought in for many reasons. To clarify a previous alert, to search a different area, to search for a different scent, to relieve a tired dog or handler- all kinds of reasons.

Case example: working a suspected murder site, body missing. LE brings out a tracking dog to try and track the suspect. Suspect gets away, but tosses suspected murder weapon along the way. Evidence recovery dog finds the weapon. HRD dog alerts to blood on weapon, not visible to naked eye. ATF dog alerts to trace methamphetamine on handle (transferred from suspect.) LE brings dogs back to residence where murder was suspected to occur. HRD dog alerts in bedroom, then bathroom, then windowsill, then outside the residence at drainage and leach field. ATF dog alerts in living room and kitchen and garage.

See how it all starts to come together?

Granted, many local LE agencies do not have the K9 resources available for this extensive use of scent dogs. But our federal government does.

Thank you so much for your help. I'm clueless, obviously. I am amazed though. Makes me want to donate to K9 training. I will have to find an organization. Thanks!!:seeya:

 

[KariKae]

I have only read bits and pieces of the thread, but I am a statistics nerd and this is my opinion...

Let's say the cadaver dogs alert on a "false positive" in 1 out of every 10 cases. (I believe false positive are actually lower than 1 in 10, but bear with me).

Let's also assume that the LDT gave an incorrect indication in 1 of every 10 cases.

Statistically speaking, the chances of both of these events occuring (false positive dog it and false failing of LDT) is 1 in 100. (1/10 * 1/10 = 1/100)

Again statistically speaking, throw in the statistics of innocent parents who refused to cooperate with the police. And when a child is hurt or killed, who statistically is the most likely person to have perpretated the crime?

Looking at the hard numbers, I do not see much of a chance DB was not inolved in this crime.

 

[matou]

I have only read bits and pieces of the thread, but I am a statistics nerd and this is my opinion...

Let's say the cadaver dogs alert on a "false positive" in 1 out of every 10 cases. (I believe false positive are actually lower than 1 in 10, but bear with me).

Let's also assume that the LDT gave an incorrect indication in 1 of every 10 cases.

Statistically speaking, the chances of both of these events occuring (false positive dog it and false failing of LDT) is 1 in 100. (1/10 * 1/10 = 1/100)

Again statistically speaking, throw in the statistics of innocent parents who refused to cooperate with the police. And when a child is hurt or killed, who statistically is the most likely person to have perpretated the crime?

Looking at the hard numbers, I do not see much of a chance DB was not inolved in this crime.

Great point KariKae. I secretely love math...and math nerds. LOL!

 

[Evan's Mom]

I have only read bits and pieces of the thread, but I am a statistics nerd and this is my opinion...

Let's say the cadaver dogs alert on a "false positive" in 1 out of every 10 cases. (I believe false positive are actually lower than 1 in 10, but bear with me).

Let's also assume that the LDT gave an incorrect indication in 1 of every 10 cases.

Statistically speaking, the chances of both of these events occuring (false positive dog it and false failing of LDT) is 1 in 100. (1/10 * 1/10 = 1/100)

Again statistically speaking, throw in the statistics of innocent parents who refused to cooperate with the police. And when a child is hurt or killed, who statistically is the most likely person to have perpretated the crime?

Looking at the hard numbers, I do not see much of a chance DB was not inolved in this crime.

Fortunately our judicial system isn't founded on statistics.
I can't imagine all of the innocent people that would have been unfairly convicted if it were.

 

[stephen40]

Fortunately our judicial system isn't founded on statistics.
I can't imagine all of the innocent people that would have been unfairly convicted if it were.

Fortunately you're right about statistics and our judicial system. It's also fortunate this forum doesn't operate like a courtroom. Stating opinions won't cause DB or JI to be arrested or charged.

mo-bbm

 

[stephen40]

Were scent dogs used during the first and second searches of the parents home?
A KCTV archive search dates this article 10/6. The actual article is dated 10/16 and 10/19.No idea why the discrepancy.

http://www.kctv5.com/story/15731314/investigators-scour-home-of-missing-baby-lisa-irwin-for-clues


Investigators were at the Irwin family home before 8 a.m. Wednesday, as the sunset they were still at the home executing a search warrant.

It is the first time the family has been denied access since the initial crime when baby Lisa disappeared from the home.

For the second day in a row a no-fly zone was issued banning news helicopters from videotaping law enforcement on the ground.

 

[matou]

Fortunately our judicial system isn't founded on statistics.
I can't imagine all of the innocent people that would have been unfairly convicted if it were.

However, evidence such as DNA is given a staticical likelihood of a match to the rest of the population. Now that I think of it, isn't there a lot of statistical facts thrown around in court? Yes, it's true the judicial system is not FOUNDED on statistics but I believe statistics are used frequently in criminal cases where evidence is involved.

 

[cityslick]

However, evidence such as DNA is given a staticical likelihood of a match to the rest of the population. Now that I think of it, isn't there a lot of statistical facts thrown around in court. Yes, it's true the judicial system is not FOUNDED of statistics but I believe statistics are used frequently in criminal cases where evidence is involved.

Your right about DNA. The statistics being quoted on this forum though have nothing to do with evidence in this case, it has to do with past cases.

 

[stephen40]

We don't know the evidence in this case.

 

[Oriah]

It will get even more muddy if a DNA dog was brought in. But stats would sure come into play then.

ETA: Do we have any background on Lisa's birth and health history?

 

[natsound]

[ame]http://video.foxnews.com/v/1300232925001/psychic-lead-in-baby-lisa-case[/ame]

More bad information about cadaver dogs and what they hit on.

Tacopina: "Decomposing human matter. Which could be fecal matter. Baby's diaper."

Gretchen: "OK."

 

[sarx]

Wow, sorry Oriah, somehow I haven't been getting notifications on this thread for like a week plus! As always, awesome answers!

 

[sarx]

I think we should let Tacopina smell for himself and see if he can tell the difference between a dirty diaper and a decomposing body....

 

[stephen40]

salem eats

 

[Oriah]

I think we should let Tacopina smell for himself and see if he can tell the difference between a dirty diaper and a decomposing body....

It's funny that you say that, sarx.
Just last night (it was 1 am- and pouring rain, may I add) I isolated a poopy diaper alongside a 7 day old trail. The three pups I ran the trail on all stopped and sniffed and then looked at me like I was insane and nearly took my arm off when I said 'sha. go!'

And then poopy diaper smell stayed with me until I got out of the rain. Diaper Genie has no idea the market they have in K9 scent work!

Tacopina doesn't have a clue what he's talking about, imvho- and worse yet, is trying to spin based on what he doesn't know.