Calling the friends over?

[BBB167893]

"I think she was a different person behind closed doors to say the least. She wanted everyone to see her as a prim and proper Southern lady. I think she was very capable of hysterical rage."

I don't doubt it.

"However didn't the garage have a door which led to the house on the inside of the home? If so, then couldn't the body have been placed in the car with no chance of any peering neighbor's seeing anything?"

But how would they get the car OUT without anyone knowing? Especially since their garage door was so noisy, the whole neighborhood would have been awakened.

"I highly doubt that JonBenet would have been in JR's bed, with PR there in the room."

That I agree with. He wouldn't be THAT stupid.

"And there were rope fibers found in JBR's bed."

That really proves nothing, imo.

 

[4sure]

But how would they get the car OUT without anyone knowing? Especially since their garage door was so noisy, the whole neighborhood would have been awakened.

No doubt that there are many light sleepers in the world but I can't imagine anyone being awakened by a garage door opening. Even a noisy one. Even if so, I cannot comprehen any person rushing out of bed to see who's door is opening. More likely they would roll over and go back to sleep.
Moreover, it matters little.
John leaving his home at 4 or 5 am could be explained by saying he went to check out the plane at the airport or load some items for the trip. Placing the body somewhere along the way. He could have claimed to come down the front staircase and not even have been aware of any kidnapping until after he arrived back from the airport to awaken his family.
I certainly can appreciate how risky this is but
it just seems very important to me that if you choose to fake a kidnapping (especially one with such an odd and detailed ransome note) than you must remove the body from the home before inviting the police and FBI over for breakfast.

 

[kayebee]

No doubt that there are many light sleepers in the world but I can't imagine anyone being awakened by a garage door opening. Even a noisy one. Even if so, I cannot comprehen any person rushing out of bed to see who's door is opening. More likely they would roll over and go back to sleep.
Moreover, it matters little.
John leaving his home at 4 or 5 am could be explained by saying he went to check out the plane at the airport or load some items for the trip. Placing the body somewhere along the way. He could have claimed to come down the front staircase and not even have been aware of any kidnapping until after he arrived back from the airport to awaken his family.
I certainly can appreciate how risky this is but
it just seems very important to me that if you choose to fake a kidnapping (especially one with such an odd and detailed ransome note) than you must remove the body from the home before inviting the police and FBI over for breakfast.

No, I disagree. It was too risky to move the body. Remember, neighbors noticed what lights were on in the house that night when questioned by police. You'd be surprised at how much neighbors pay attention, and certainly a garage door opening at 4am or 5am the day after Christmas may not cause anyone to call 911, but when the police come knocking on your door that morning asking if you saw anything suspicious, you're going to answer "This is probably nothing, but . . ." There are a lot of insomniacs out there, up watching the late movie, not to mention people who just get up at night to get a glass of water, go to the bathroom or check on their children who would hear a garage door open. It wouldn't have to be loud enough to wake a person from his/her sleep.

Assuming the Ramseys are guilty, the decisions made that night appear ridiculous to us now, in the light of day, without adrenaline pumping through our veins, without our thoughts racing or lack of sleep clouding our judgment. But imagine how your decision making ability would be affected under the circumstances of that night. That crazy ransom note probably sounded pretty good to them!

I've said this before, but I really believe the Ramseys did not intend for the body to be discovered in the home. I think they assumed the police would believe the ransom note, wait for the phone call, and when it didn't come, go off on their merry way searching Boulder for the "small foreign faction." I don't think they ever anticipated that the police did not intend to leave, or that the investigation would begin inside the home.

 

[BBB167893]

No, I disagree. It was too risky to move the body. Remember, neighbors noticed what lights were on in the house that night when questioned by police. You'd be surprised at how much neighbors pay attention, and certainly a garage door opening at 4am or 5am the day after Christmas may not cause anyone to call 911, but when the police come knocking on your door that morning asking if you saw anything suspicious, you're going to answer "This is probably nothing, but . . ." There are a lot of insomniacs out there, up watching the late movie, not to mention people who just get up at night to get a glass of water, go to the bathroom or check on their children who would hear a garage door open. It wouldn't have to be loud enough to wake a person from his/her sleep.

Assuming the Ramseys are guilty, the decisions made that night appear ridiculous to us now, in the light of day, without adrenaline pumping through our veins, without our thoughts racing or lack of sleep clouding our judgment. But imagine how your decision making ability would be affected under the circumstances of that night. That crazy ransom note probably sounded pretty good to them!

How many times have you ever uttered the words:

"It seemed like a good idea at the time?"

Famous last words!

 

[4sure]

I've said this before, but I really believe the Ramseys did not intend for the body to be discovered in the home. I think they assumed the police would believe the ransom note, wait for the phone call, and when it didn't come, go off on their merry way searching Boulder for the "small foreign faction." I don't think they ever anticipated that the police did not intend to leave, or that the investigation would begin inside the home.

I may be wrong about many things, but one thing I am 100% 4sure about is that there is no way you would not expect the police to find a poorly hidden dead body laying in your basement when you have invited them over and given them free reign of your home.

 

[angelwngs]

I may be wrong about many things, but one thing I am 100% 4sure about is that there is no way you would not expect the police to find a poorly hidden dead body laying in your basement when you have invited them over and given them free reign of your home.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Do we know that JBR's body was indeed in the cellar where it was found the entire time following her death until it was found by JR???

Isn't it possible that he moved it from a very well hidden place out into the open area in the cellar?

He did 'go missing in action' during the morning of the 26th according to Det. Linda Arndt didn't he???

I assumed that is what Fleet White was alluding to when he pulled LA over to the side and told her privately that he had been to the cellar and had not found JBR's body when he looked there.

 

[BBB167893]

Not only that, but he would have gotten pretty impatient after a while.

 

[4sure]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Isn't it possible that he moved it from a very well hidden place out into the open area in the cellar?

.

Why would he do this?
Whats his motivation?
If he's trying to get away with murder and nobodys finding or even looking for the body in his "well hidden" place than why in the world would he suddenly move the body out in the open and proceed to find it himself?
Can you imagine how risky and awkward it must be to attempt to move a dead body in a house where the police and FBI are coming and going at will?

 

[kayebee]

I may be wrong about many things, but one thing I am 100% 4sure about is that there is no way you would not expect the police to find a poorly hidden dead body laying in your basement when you have invited them over and given them free reign of your home.

Not sure if you are familiar with all the facts of the case, but you do realize that the police did not find the body in the house, don't you? Ramsey himself discovered the body in the early afternoon, after the police had already been in the basement, Fleet White had been in the basement, and Ramsey himself had made an earlier search of the basement.

So I'm not sure how you explain how the "poorly hidden dead body laying in the basement" managed to elude three separate searches. Whether or not one would expect the police to find it or not, they didn't.

Unless it wasn't there when the earlier searches took place.

I realize the police and Ramsey--supposedly--were looking for points of entry, but if you're looking for points of entry, how do you miss a dead body?

I wanted to correct another mistaken impression--that the house was crawling with police and FBI agents so who would be foolish enough to move a body with them all around. Not true--Linda Arndt is the only police officer in the house from 10:30am until after the body is discovered (around 1pm). The house is crawling with Ramsey friends, victim advocates, etc., not police, and Arndt makes at least one call for back up during this time period because she feels she can't keep control of the situation by herself.

Karen

 

[LinasK]

Why would he do this?
Whats his motivation?
If he's trying to get away with murder and nobodys finding or even looking for the body in his "well hidden" place than why in the world would he suddenly move the body out in the open and proceed to find it himself?
Can you imagine how risky and awkward it must be to attempt to move a dead body in a house where the police and FBI are coming and going at will?

[Waving my hand to be called on] I can answer this...

Because John himself was the killer after his sexual fun with JB, and he felt guilty/impatient that Linda Arndt wasn't searching the house and the body hadn't been found (kinda like the guilty conscience of the murderer in "Crime and Punishment" who gets away scott-free, but his conscience at not getting caught eats at him until he finally confesses!). John also saw discovering her body as a prime opportunity to contaminate the crime scene with his shirt fibers by carrying her body up the stairs instead of the normal behavior of yelling for the cops to come to where you are.

 

[4sure]

Not sure if you are familiar with all the facts of the case, but you do realize that the police did not find the body in the house, don't you? Ramsey himself discovered the body in the early afternoon, after the police had already been in the basement, Fleet White had been in the basement, and Ramsey himself had made an earlier search of the basement.

Kayebee, thanks for the feedback and I do not nesicerally disagree with you.
Yes I try to keep up on the facts of the case and I feel pretty confident in my opinion here. My point is if your hiding a body in your home and you call the police to your home you have to be expecting them to find the body. Can you really tell me different? If you assume the parents did this, hid the body and then called the police, I have to believe they assumed the police would search the house and find her. Or at least had a chance to find her. Why take that chance when the RN you just wrote gave you the excuse you need not to call the police?

So I'm not sure how you explain how the "poorly hidden dead body laying in the basement" managed to elude three separate searches. Whether or not one would expect the police to find it or not, they didn't.

I can't unless its just terrible police work or they were in on this crime. Still I think you as a perpetrator would at least suspect the police might bring a dog or something and stand a chance at searching the house and finding a dead body hidden anywhere. Even by accident.

I wanted to correct another mistaken impression--that the house was crawling with police and FBI agents so who would be foolish enough to move a body with them all around. Not true--Linda Arndt is the only police officer in the house from 10:30am until after the body is discovered (around 1pm). The house is crawling with Ramsey friends, victim advocates, etc., not police, and Arndt makes at least one call for back up during this time period because she feels she can't keep control of the situation by herself.

Karen

Yes but how do you know that five FBI angents or police officers (especially if your in your basement and unaware of happenings upstairs) aren't walking through the door at any moment? You have no control over who's coming or going. Anyway you slice it your risking being seen moving the body.

 

[Eagle1]

Kayebee, I have an opinion that may be a little unusual re your question quoted here:

"So I'm not sure how you explain how the "poorly hidden dead body laying in the basement" managed to elude three separate searches. Whether or not one would expect the police to find it or not, they didn't. Unless it wasn't there when the earlier searches took place."

You may be right, and I certainly don't claim the R's are blameless, but there's also other possibilities about which we hesitate to stick our necks out, all the various undergrounds that sometimes have infiltrated LE.

For instance, didn't ST say a snapshot fell out of the evidence folder when he went to look at the evidence, the open dictionary dog-eared exactly to the word "incest", which wasn't at the crime scene when it was officially gone over? Someone had access to the file and evidently placed that in there later, not attached to the rest of the papers so that it would fall out and be noticed. Blatant attempt to frame someone but ineffective because of the dumb way it was done. I don't remember personally reading this but it's been discussed here. Maybe that came out during the Grand Jury? No source, just speculating there. And Archuletta may have known to not have the plane "ready" to fly to Atlanta where JR might have felt safer around his first family because things had been happening, like Beth's death, since he'd married Patsy and moved to Co.???

 

[BBB167893]

"(kinda like the guilty conscience of the murderer in "Crime and Punishment" who gets away scott-free, but his conscience at not getting caught eats at him until he finally confesses!)."

I was thinking more about "The Tell-Tale Heart!"

"If you assume the parents did this, hid the body and then called the police, I have to believe they assumed the police would search the house and find her."

Maybe that was the original intent.

 

[BloodshotEye]

SuperD, I totally agree with your supposition, that the R's assumed the police would search the house, and find the body - like they always do in the movies.

Who could have predicted, that these bumbling idiots (BPD), couldn't find their way out of a paper bag, if you cut a hole in one end.

Is it any wonder that one theory, has JR moving the body to a more "logical"(?) location in the house, and voila! Finding it himself.

I admit to being open to both RDI and IDI theories. At the momemt, I seem to be somewhat biased toward the RDI theory. But man, BlueCrab sure has some interesting thoughts I can never seem to get out of my mind.

 

[kayebee]

"If you assume the parents did this, hid the body and then called the police, I have to believe they assumed the police would search the house and find her."

Maybe that was the original intent.

But why write the ransom note if you intend the body to be found in the house? Why is it even necessary? This case ALWAYS comes back to that ransom note--

Why not just call the police, say your daughter is missing, and let the police come over and find the body? Why write the ransom note at all?

The ransom note must have been written for the purpose of getting police to look outside the house and NOT inside the house. I just don't see any other explanation for it. They didn't intend for that body to be found in the house, but something happened that morning that made Ramsey take the body out of its hiding place. Perhaps it was a belief that once the investigation became a homicide, the Ramseys would be allowed to fly away "for their own safety." Perhaps he overheard a conversation that the police would be bringing in tracking dogs to search and he thought it would look better if the body was found out in the open.

Writing that ransom note and at the same time intending for the body to be discovered in the house just doesn't fit.

Karen

 

[kayebee]

Kayebee, thanks for the feedback and I do not nesicerally disagree with you.
Yes I try to keep up on the facts of the case and I feel pretty confident in my opinion here. My point is if your hiding a body in your home and you call the police to your home you have to be expecting them to find the body. Can you really tell me different? If you assume the parents did this, hid the body and then called the police, I have to believe they assumed the police would search the house and find her. Or at least had a chance to find her. Why take that chance when the RN you just wrote gave you the excuse you need not to call the police?
I can't unless its just terrible police work or they were in on this crime. Still I think you as a perpetrator would at least suspect the police might bring a dog or something and stand a chance at searching the house and finding a dead body hidden anywhere. Even by accident.

Yes but how do you know that five FBI angents or police officers (especially if your in your basement and unaware of happenings upstairs) aren't walking through the door at any moment? You have no control over who's coming or going. Anyway you slice it your risking being seen moving the body.

I hear what you're saying and so much of what seems to have happened makes no sense, which gives ammunition to the IDI folks, but like I said in an earlier post, we look at this murder in the light of day, with clear heads and the ability to go over it in detail and determine what would be the "perfect" crime--of course you wouldn't write that ridiculous ransom note! Of course you wouldn't leave the body in the house! But under the incredible stress of that moment, with only a few hours before the crime would be discovered, having gotten no sleep, the decisions they made probably seemed pretty good at the time.

And criminals make mistakes and do stupid things all the time. That's how they get caught. I don't understand all this "If they were REALLY guilty, they wouldn't have done that, because that's stupid." Criminals do stupid stuff all the time, that's how they get caught, and that's how they get convicted.

About the risk Ramsey was taking moving the body with the the possibility FBI agents could walk in any time--I think it was a calculated risk. Remember, it's December 26th, certainly there would have been a lot of talk about how hard it was to get the authorities to the scene with everyone on holiday, and perhaps Ramsey even overhears Arndt's request for back up denied, so he knows no one else is coming any time soon. Maybe he only needs to move the body a short distance.

Anyway, I always enjoy reading other opinions and I like to play around with the various IDI theories. I'm a mystery writer (though I don't write anything as gruesome as this case) so it's all grist for the mill.

Karen

 

[SpongeBathHotPants]

This is how it ended up in my mind if this were to happen to me. I wake up, see the note, wake up hubby. Call 911 while doing a serch of the house and after everything is said and done I would have called people. Why wasn't every room of the house searched as soon as they got the note? Granted, my house is a lot smaller than theirs but still. Friends would have been the last thing on my mind because I would have been on the phone with 911 till LE got there.

 

[BBB167893]

"SuperD, I totally agree with your supposition, that the R's assumed the police would search the house, and find the body - like they always do in the movies."

To which Robert Ressler said:

In addition, he said, the note ``reflects a person whose knowledge of kidnapping comes from movies and books.''

"But why write the ransom note if you intend the body to be found in the house? Why is it even necessary? This case ALWAYS comes back to that ransom note--

Why not just call the police, say your daughter is missing, and let the police come over and find the body? Why write the ransom note at all?"

That one's simple enough: what is the purpose of staging? Answer: to be seen. The note was the final piece of that. Number one, it gives them a reason not to search too thoroughly. Two, it above all looks like an outsider more than anything else.

But, in case that's not good enough for you, let's hear from an expert:

"The note was intended to misdirect law enforcement and focus attention elsewhere and was a cathartic act that allowed the offender to 'undo' the murder in one's own mind."


"And criminals make mistakes and do stupid things all the time. That's how they get caught. I don't understand all this "If they were REALLY guilty, they wouldn't have done that, because that's stupid." Criminals do stupid stuff all the time, that's how they get caught, and that's how they get convicted."

AMEN!

 

[4sure]

This is how it ended up in my mind if this were to happen to me. I wake up, see the note, wake up hubby. Call 911 while doing a serch of the house and after everything is said and done I would have called people. Why wasn't every room of the house searched as soon as they got the note? Granted, my house is a lot smaller than theirs but still. Friends would have been the last thing on my mind because I would have been on the phone with 911 till LE got there.

Your reaction is a little too "matter of fact" one might say. You would be disregarding the insuing fear and panic that disrupts what you think you would now be so normally capable of in a overwhelmingly dire situation

 

[4sure]

"SuperD, I totally agree with your supposition, that the R's assumed the police would search the house, and find the body - like they always do in the movies."

To which Robert Ressler said:


"But why write the ransom note if you intend the body to be found in the house? Why is it even necessary? This case ALWAYS comes back to that ransom note--

Why not just call the police, say your daughter is missing, and let the police come over and find the body? Why write the ransom note at all?"

That one's simple enough: what is the purpose of staging? Answer: to be seen. The note was the final piece of that. Number one, it gives them a reason not to search too thoroughly. Two, it above all looks like an outsider more than anything else.

But, in case that's not good enough for you, let's hear from an expert:

"The note was intended to misdirect law enforcement and focus attention elsewhere and was a cathartic act that allowed the offender to 'undo' the murder in one's own mind."


AMEN!

Which is an excellent explanation until you consider the note itself. It is much to long and detailed to be written by someone just trying to misdirect attention. Perhaps all this is the work of someone with experience and knowledge on how to present such a crime scene.