Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #14

[deugirtni]

Not trying to be super gross here, but... if there are terrible wounds, doesn't that speed up the process, especially in the wound areas?

I don't think so. It's based on the decomposition of tissue as it relates to exposure and temperature.

 

[deugirtni]

Are you sure Otto, all I can remember seeing is that they 'thought' it was a male body, and that the manner of death was unknown. Do you have a link?

Initial reports were that no foul play was suspected.

 

[otto]

Wow, average temps have been that low there over that time frame? Seems awfully COLD!

Nights are cooler, bringing the average temp down. I couldn't find any specific stats for 2014, so I went with the overall average.

 

[otto]

Are you sure Otto, all I can remember seeing is that they 'thought' it was a male body, and that the manner of death was unknown. Do you have a link?

I guess it's not suspicious because nothing more has been said about it.

"The medical investigator is on scene but police aren't sure yet whether the death should be considered suspicious"

http://www.cbc.ca/m/touch/canada/calgary/story/1.2751675

 

[deugirtni]

I found this site which has temps by the day, both highs and lows.. I think it averages out to even colder than your estimate (I got an average of 13.37C once highs and lows were averaged and F was translated into C). I guess our weather this summer wasn't the greatest anywhere!
http://www.accuweather.com/en/ca/calgary/t2g/july-weather/52479?monyr=7/1/2014

Nights are cooler, bringing the average temp down. I couldn't find any specific stats for 2014, so I went with the overall average.

 

[deugirtni]

To me.. that could say many things.. such as, the body was in such a state of decomp that it was impossible to tell the cause of death so impossible to tell whether suspicious.. or.. from what they could see, they couldnt' determine whether or not drowning was the cause of death and therefore they don't know if it should be considered suspicious.. so.. even moreso, they should follow that up with a quick and tidy statement, assuming there is no news there, by just stating that.. whatever.. not suspicious.. has been id'd.. etc. Nobody gets hurts that way, but they tie off that loose end.

I guess it's not suspicious because nothing more has been said about it.

"The medical investigator is on scene but police aren't sure yet whether the death should be considered suspicious"

http://www.cbc.ca/m/touch/canada/calgary/story/1.2751675

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Sorry for asking.. but does it really only take a couple of months for a body to skeletonize?

https://www.goodreads.com/author/sho...Rob_Tripp/blog

It's actually dependant on the temperature outside. It is based on 'Accumulated Degree Days'. At an ADD of 800, the body is well on it's way to skeletization, (that would be 10 x 80 deg F. days). Based on Calgary's temperature since the trio has gone missing, by August 24th there was an ADD of 3500...triple what is required for a body to be reduced to bare bone or bone with dry mummified tissue.

So according to the above information, they would have been skeletal before the end of July, give or take.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Nights are cooler, bringing the average temp down. I couldn't find any specific stats for 2014, so I went with the overall average.

With all due respect Otto, we can't just go adjusting things when we're talking about subjects like this. The exact calculations have already been done specifically for this case and Calgary's temperatures. It was posted this morning.

https://www.goodreads.com/author/sho...Rob_Tripp/blog

 

[stan laurel]

I found this site which has temps by the day, both highs and lows.. I think it averages out to even colder than your estimate (I got an average of 13.37C once highs and lows were averaged and F was translated into C). I guess our weather this summer wasn't the greatest anywhere!
http://www.accuweather.com/en/ca/calgary/t2g/july-weather/52479?monyr=7/1/2014

Southern Alberta is dry so we get those big swinging hot and cold temps over a day and a night. Actually we had a longer hot than normal summer, usually once Stampede is done it's mid to low twenty's in the day but we were getting high twenty's up until last week. However, when night falls so does the temperature, we don't get those nice hot summer nights, I think the altitude plays a part in this too.

As for decomposition outside of the elements, flies and their larvae really get things moving too. There was a great old documentary on a small town Sherriff who solved a murder because he had backwoods experience; after forensics had deemed that bodies were not in the area, he argued (and was correct) that they were, as, it was only common to see a certain fly if there were carrion nearby. There's also (or was a website/livecam) from UVic on what happens and how fast crabs and such take care of bodies that get dumped in the Ocean.

 

[LoriMcA]

Since we are discussing weather & exposure...the elements and the estimated time until skeletonization...I saw an interesting show a few years back *possibly even a decade or more* on Dateline or 60 Minutes...some such program...about The Body Farm in Tennessee...I am trying to find the full episode...it was fascinating...

I did find a small clip of 3 minutes with a bit of information...if you are in any way squeamish...you may not want to watch it...

http://video.nationalgeographic.com/video/body-farm-sci

and another article...

http://fac.utk.edu/

 

[news.talk]

While I haven't heard of *anything* about the search being called off or remains in *any* form being attributed to the victims, I still wonder why the memorial services are now being held - this week and next week. Did something change? Did the families decide it was time?

 

[Tinkerbel1]

While I haven't heard of *anything* about the search being called off or remains in *any* form being attributed to the victims, I still wonder why the memorial services are now being held - this week and next week. Did something change? Did the families decide it was time?

Good question. It could be because the family needs a 'stop' and 'restart' point for their lives, it could be that the bodies are never found. Not to be crass, but is there any sort of time factor involved in order to receive death benefits or life insurance monies? Not sure how any of that works. I would imagine the families need to be able to put their lives into some semblance of order and move forward so this may be how they're doing this at a personal level. They were going to be receiving victim services counselling I believe at the end of August or so, maybe this was a suggestion made by a therapist?

 

[deugirtni]

Ohhh so gross, but really interesting, thanks!

Since we are discussing weather & exposure...the elements and the estimated time until skeletonization...I saw an interesting show a few years back *possibly even a decade or more* on Dateline or 60 Minutes...some such program...about The Body Farm in Tennessee...I am trying to find the full episode...it was fascinating...

I did find a small clip of 3 minutes with a bit of information...if you are in any way squeamish...you may not want to watch it...

http://video.nationalgeographic.com/video/body-farm-sci

and another article...

http://fac.utk.edu/

 

[deugirtni]

Tinkerbel1 I saw that link earlier, but the post was snipped and so I didn't know what it was, so I didn't open.. and now I can't open yours either, it is broken , but thanks for posting.

With all due respect Otto, we can't just go adjusting things when we're talking about subjects like this. The exact calculations have already been done specifically for this case and Calgary's temperatures. It was posted this morning.

https://www.goodreads.com/author/sho...Rob_Tripp/blog

 

[deugirtni]

I didn't see the 'next week' reference.. I only read that the service for the Ls would be in future. They must have needed to do this to enable them to carry on, or perhaps a requirement of any potential insurance policy? To stop speculation perhaps?

While I haven't heard of *anything* about the search being called off or remains in *any* form being attributed to the victims, I still wonder why the memorial services are now being held - this week and next week. Did something change? Did the families decide it was time?

 

[Lalalacasbah]

It is safe to say, that the family has accepted that the victims are deceased and not simply "missing" - I think they can begin to heal (as much as one can in these cases) by having memorial services. Yes, finding the bodies would have been better, but this is a start. It must have taken a great deal of acceptance and courage to come to this decision.

I find it comforting knowing they are a spiritual/religious family and they refer to him as eternal and their angel. I'm sure that will definitely help them with the grieving process they'll have the rest of their lives. And he looks like an angel to me too, such a bright smile and like Tinkerbel1 said - he sure does shine.

 

[deugirtni]

Sorry Tinkerbel1, I hadn't seen your post yet when I posted, .. great minds think alike?

Good question. It could be because the family needs a 'stop' and 'restart' point for their lives, it could be that the bodies are never found. Not to be crass, but is there any sort of time factor involved in order to receive death benefits or life insurance monies? Not sure how any of that works. I would imagine the families need to be able to put their lives into some semblance of order and move forward so this may be how they're doing this at a personal level. They were going to be receiving victim services counselling I believe at the end of August or so, maybe this was a suggestion made by a therapist?

 

[Lalalacasbah]

I understand the reasoning behind LE and MSM not wanting to report on suicides.. but.. in this case on Saturday where an unidentified, presumably male body of unknown age was found dead in Fish Creek Park/Bow River, and considering that I haven't read any reports of still-missing males lately in the area, and considering this Liknes case continues to have 3 missing bodies... you would think that the least LE/MSM could do is to report that the body has been ID'd, no foul play suspected, etc., just so that people like me, and perhaps you, aren't left wondering, you know?????????? PMO!

Yes agreed! It's a catch 22 - when there's no word or mention you think MSM/LE has a reason that it might have to do with an open investigation *or* MSM/LE could be being quiet because of exactly what you said, a suicide. Frustrating.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

Yes agreed! It's a catch 22 - when there's no word or mention you think MSM/LE has a reason that it might have to do with an open investigation *or* MSM/LE could be being quiet because of exactly what you said, a suicide. Frustrating.

Again... it's probably safe to assume there is nothing noteworthy to the public at large. MSM would be all over a murder, O'brien link, controversial back story, famous personality, or anything newsworthy. They would persist with LE for details.

 

[news.talk]

I didn't see the 'next week' reference.. I only read that the service for the Ls would be in future. They must have needed to do this to enable them to carry on, or perhaps a requirement of any potential insurance policy? To stop speculation perhaps?

I have never heard of any insurance policy that requires a memorial service to be held in order to pay benefits. All they need is a death certificate.