Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #18

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About the timing of the 2nd arrest...
I would have to find the article(s) *it's probably one that's been posted above..I'd have to go read!*...but IIRC...the week before the 2nd arrest *the 14th *1-1:30am I do believe?*...DG had been held...on the bank card/ID issue...

Then he was released on the $750 bond...*was it the Thursday ...the 10th?*...but there seemed to be hesitation or whatever reason...that he wasn't out till later on the weekend...

Did he even stay Friday or Saturday night at the motel?

Do you guys recall...we were all wondering 'why' he wasn't out yet...we even guessed maybe he wasn't in any hurry to leave *safety etc*...

Next thing we hear/read...he's out & staying somewhere but I don't think we knew immediately 'where'.

What seems to have played out is...he was settled into the motel....LE were still waiting on lab results...*according to statements after the arrest by RH...they 'concluded' late Sunday aft./early Sunday eve with the results/evidence/conclusions they rec'd to that point*...

Seems to me...they 'could have' arrested him THEN.

IMO...I think they kept it quiet for the moment...had him under surveillance...& waited...with a little 'nudge' *covert assets?* to get him running home/somewhere?...*possibly to lead them to the victims?*

IMO the thing LE want most...besides bringing the victims home....is a rock solid...indisputable case to take to trial....

Since by late Sunday when their lab/forensics results came in...this was now triple homicide...

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Crime/2014/07/16/21809716.html

"But as one of the few people who's actually viewed the forensic evidence tying accused triple killer Douglas Garland to the disappearance of three Calgarians, Chief Rick Hanson says he has absolutely no doubt.

"They are dead," he says, matter-of-factly."

"Calgary's top cop gives absolutely no wiggle room for "maybe" or "what if"...."

^^rsbm


They needed *I hate to type this* ...bodies...not only for closure for the family...but for trial...

Yes...you can 'win' a murder case without...but bodies don't lie...

So IMO...I think they watched...waited...and hoped to give him few hours on the loose....enough time to lead....somewhere....

DG has a history of flight...but with surveillance I doubt they'd 'lose him'...

I also don't think LE saw him as a 'threat' to the general public...I think this was very personal...

I think they had a very small window of time to let him be 'out there'...he wasn't charged yet but who wants a suspect in a triple murder running around free?

So why not give him a little nudge from the motel...let's see where he goes & what he does right?

Give him the opportunity to mess up on his own...hopefully leading to NO, AL & KL...

JMOO
 
Cherchri said:
I actually loved the cadence of that article and I think it was rather beautifully written. I think the ambiguity may have been intentional as I don't believe LE ever specified exactly where he was apprehended. Not a wise choice but understandable. I have never read anything else by this writer but there were certainly a few beautifully written paragraphs.

"Surrounded by large yellow fields of fragrant canola and patches of swaying green wheat, the faded sign at the end of Range Road 291 reads “Rural Crime Watch Area.”

To long-time residents, the sign always seemed out of place on this farming road in southern Alberta, at the edge of the quiet bedroom community of Airdrie. Everyone on Range Road 291 knows each other and helps each other. This is an area ruled by tradition and hard work, where neighbours share coffee over well-worn kitchen tables. Descendants of the five families that first settled the area a century ago still meet at Christmas annually.

Near the edge of the road, where asphalt gives way to gravel that continues to the horizon, Archie and Doreen Garland have owned a large acreage for more than 40 years. A tree-lined lane runs to their home from the road, with rusted and sagging barbed wire strung across the front of their property. This has been home to their family for decades."

Given the subject matter, I find that just a lovely window into a world that has been shattered for these old folk.
Click to expand...

You are right on that score Cherchri...other than that one line *confusing for me..maybe not so for others*...it's a wonderfully written piece...It almost sounds like they are going to be telling a long story...Beautiful visions of the country...peaceful & gorgeous...very poetic & descriptive...

In fact when I first read this article...it reminded me of a true crime book I have called Evidence of Love by John Bloom & Jim Atkinson. It is set in rural/semi-suburban Texas *just outside Dallas*...late 70s...early 80s...& the descriptions in this article reminded me of that book...just the 'way' it is written...pretty much the last location you would expect a horrific crime to take place...
 
Cherchri said:
With ref to the glasses issue. What he actually said was "bad eyesight" just those two words and it was in response to the judge querying why he was leaning into the CCTV camera. Prisoners are supposed to stand against the back wall of the CCTV room and DG was moving toward the camera at the front of the cubicle because he literally couldn't see the judge, the courtroom, etc from that distance. The next time we saw him he had some snazzy new specs.
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/07/09/douglas-garland_n_5571677.html
Click to expand...

The snazzy new specs would indicate that someone else had gotten them for him, wouldn't it? Or can they get those things done in remand? If someone else got them for him, I would imagine it would've been his parents...which shows that they are in contact with him and are there for their son.
 
Tinkerbel1 said:
The snazzy new specs would indicate that someone else had gotten them for him, wouldn't it? Or can they get those things done in remand? If someone else got them for him, I would imagine it would've been his parents...which shows that they are in contact with him and are there for their son.
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I think that as well. There was no trip to Lenscrafters and they were not supplied by the remand centre. They are his personal glasses and if he did not have them at the time of the court appearance he did thereafter, possibly brought from his residence or he was allowed them back. Was he still on suicide watch? Maybe the glasses could be a potential harmful object and he was not allowed them.
 
Cherchri said:
You cannot be blamed for being jaded :) I really just wanted to set the record straight.
Click to expand...

It's hard for me not to be cynical in my attitude towards persons charged with murder, especially of a child. Innocent until proven guilty yes, but such heavy charges usually mean heavy evidence and heavy involvement and I tend to get annoyed when everything seems to revolve around the wrong doers of society. I'm also a little worked up after hearing what a joke sentence Oscar Pistorous just got for cold blooded murder.

I'm an acquaintance of a person whose sister was raped and murdered by convicted sex offender when he was released from prison for robbery. With that and having had a stalker myself where he seemed to have more rights and freedoms that me (the victim) as well as hearing horror stories from a family member who assesses criminals in maximum security prisons, I can't help shake off my cynicism.

Sorry if I sound harsh and offensive sometimes and please bear with me and my comments. I just get a little passionate lol :)
 
Lalalacasbah said:
It's hard for me not to be cynical in my attitude towards persons charged with murder, especially of a child. Innocent until proven guilty yes, but such heavy charges usually mean heavy evidence and heavy involvement and I tend to get annoyed when everything seems to revolve around the wrong doers of society. I'm also a little worked up after hearing what a joke sentence Oscar Pistorous just got for cold blooded murder.

I'm an acquaintance of a person whose sister was raped and murdered by convicted sex offender when he was released from prison for robbery. With that and having had a stalker myself where he seemed to have more rights and freedoms that me (the victim) as well as hearing horror stories from a family member who assesses criminals in maximum security prisons, I can't help shake off my cynicism.

Sorry if I sound harsh and offensive sometimes and please bear with me and my comments. I just get a little passionate lol :)
Click to expand...

You sound neither harsh nor offensive from my standpoint! I actually share your sentiments. I am seething regarding Oscar myself. His late mother was an acquaintance of mine and I first met him when he was about 11. I have followed the trial very closely and was in South Africa until April this year. I actually did live streaming reports for a while on a freelance basis. I think it a total travesty of justice. OP has a history of violent tantrums and accidental shootings. How anyone can pump 4 shots through a door into a tiny space from which there was no means of escape - without a warning shot or calling out - and call it an accident is totally beyond the realm of my reasoning. Shocking!
 
Cherchri said:
You sound neither harsh nor offensive from my standpoint! I actually share your sentiments. I am seething regarding Oscar myself. His late mother was an acquaintance of mine and I first met him when he was about 11. I have followed the trial very closely and was in South Africa until April this year. I actually did live streaming reports for a while on a freelance basis. I think it a total travesty of justice. OP has a history of violent tantrums and accidental shootings. How anyone can pump 4 shots through a door into a tiny space from which there was no means of escape - without a warning shot or calling out - and call it an accident is totally beyond the realm of my reasoning. Shocking!
Click to expand...

Yes seething and shocking are the exact words I'd use too. I had heard that also about OP - a history of firearm misuse as well as violence/abuse.

I am glad I'm not the only one who is shocked by this. Being a personal acquaintance and covering this story must've gotten under your skin! I can't imagine his poor mother too. How terrible to watch your child evolve into someone violent, terrible.

I can't imagine the utter terror Reeva must've felt being trapped like a caged animal in that bathroom knowing very well her fate. She probably knew he would reach the point to kill eventually, but probably didn't know when which seems to happen in abusive relationships :(
 
His late mom, Sheila, passed away when Oscar was about 15. Luckily she didn't have to endure this. She was a lovely person. Reeva and Oscar had not been together long but cell phone records revealed texts from Reeva stating she was afraid of Oscar because of his controlling, aggressive behaviour. These were used in evidence. Sadly no jury system in South Africa - decisions come down to one judge! A man in another province in South Africa was given 25 years today for rape. One extreme to the other and a seemingly subjective process.
 
Sorry to be OT, but I have been wondering about Reeva's cellphone, why would she have taken it to the bathroom with her in the middle of the night? Was she going to try to call a friend, or equivalent to 911, or just have it in there with her just in case the place was stormed by a thief? Something is just off with that, imho. If she was already afraid for her life, then why didn't she take that opportunity to use her phone?

Cherchri said:
His late mom, Sheila, passed away when Oscar was about 15. Luckily she didn't have to endure this. She was a lovely person. Reeva and Oscar had not been together long but cell phone records revealed texts from Reeva stating she was afraid of Oscar because of his controlling, aggressive behaviour. These were used in evidence. Sadly no jury system in South Africa - decisions come down to one judge! A man in another province in South Africa was given 25 years today for rape. One extreme to the other and a seemingly subjective process.
Click to expand...
 
deugirtni said:
Sorry to be OT, but I have been wondering about Reeva's cellphone, why would she have taken it to the bathroom with her in the middle of the night? Was she going to try to call a friend, or equivalent to 911, or just have it in there with her just in case the place was stormed by a thief? Something is just off with that, imho. If she was already afraid for her life, then why didn't she take that opportunity to use her phone?
Click to expand...

I can speak for myself having been in a very dysfunctional, manipulating, abusive relationship in the past (my life sounds very dramatic, but isn't really, just made lots of stupid choices when I was younger, thankfully all in the past now).

First, you reach a point of denial, embarrassment and shame that you're one of 'these women' and wonder how your relationship evolved into an abusive one and blame yourself (wrong). Not one person had a clue about my situation except for the police who came knocking a couple times and my neighbors. I NEVER filed a complaint or any charges with LE. I did not want a soul to know my secret, and when you get into involving police and courts, everyone finds out. My family, best friends, co-workers - none of them knew as it was extremely embarrassing and I am super tight with my friends and family.

Second - you get manipulated. My ex would rage (meaning - he turned into another animal, Jekyll and Hyde. He was like a rabid animal, subhuman, he was a different person. His eyes were black and when trying to talk to diffuse this rage is impossible, you can't get through as they are in another realm of consciousness IMO. So when this beast (yes, I say beast) tells you they will harm your parents, your sister, go to your work and tell everyone, etc. you believe them and it's scary as hell. You get trapped.

Third - why wouldn't Reeva call for help? In my experience, abusive men can be like cute puppy dogs after they rage. They adore you, and are different people, victim's get soft and feel sorry for them (I felt extremely sorry for my ex because he had a rough upbringing), you start to empathize about *their* issues. It's a vicious cycle. The other thing is, you really don't think this man you love will reach his limit, you don't think they'll reach a point, because you tell yourself, he would never kill me. I had wondered often 'is he going snap this time?', victim's know in the back of their minds it *could* happen, but still think it *won't*.

She probably didn't call for the same reasons I didn't call (thank goodness my ex had no access to guns, otherwise I might say different) - she didn't want anyone to know how bad it was, it's embarrassing, you're ashamed, she might've felt it was pointless being he was a celebrity and his past with guns he had no consequences, maybe her battery was dead, and most of all, she probably didn't think he'd *actually* do it, as I think is what happens with a lot of victim's of control, manipulation and abuse (be it emotionally or physically).

And it's not her fault this happened, it's his. When she's screaming in the bathroom, he would've know her screams and that it wasn't an intruder.

JMO. Sorry for OT also, that's just my take. Sorry for the spiel, just a touchy subject, another one I get passionate about.

ETA: my ex would always 'pick fights' on occasions/holidays (after friends wedding, Christmas). Not sure this is common with these types of men, but it doesn't surprise me this happened on Valentines Day.
 
deugirtni said:
Sorry to be OT, but I have been wondering about Reeva's cellphone, why would she have taken it to the bathroom with her in the middle of the night? Was she going to try to call a friend, or equivalent to 911, or just have it in there with her just in case the place was stormed by a thief? Something is just off with that, imho. If she was already afraid for her life, then why didn't she take that opportunity to use her phone?
Click to expand...
There is little doubt she was trying to call when she was shot.
 
Lalalacasbah said:
I can speak for myself having been in a very dysfunctional, manipulating, abusive relationship in the past (my life sounds very dramatic, but isn't really, just made lots of stupid choices when I was younger, thankfully all in the past now).

First, you reach a point of denial, embarrassment and shame that you're one of 'these women' and wonder how your relationship evolved into an abusive one and blame yourself (wrong). Not one person had a clue about my situation except for the police who came knocking a couple times and my neighbors. I NEVER filed a complaint or any charges with LE. I did not want a soul to know my secret, and when you get into involving police and courts, everyone finds out. My family, best friends, co-workers - none of them knew as it was extremely embarrassing and I am super tight with my friends and family.

Second - you get manipulated. My ex would rage (meaning - he turned into another animal, Jekyll and Hyde. He was like a rabid animal, subhuman, he was a different person. His eyes were black and when trying to talk to diffuse this rage is impossible, you can't get through as they are in another realm of consciousness IMO. So when this beast (yes, I say beast) tells you they will harm your parents, your sister, go to your work and tell everyone, etc. you believe them and it's scary as hell. You get trapped.

Third - why wouldn't Reeva call for help? In my experience, abusive men can be like cute puppy dogs after they rage. They adore you, and are different people, victim's get soft and feel sorry for them (I felt extremely sorry for my ex because he had a rough upbringing), you start to empathize about *their* issues. It's a vicious cycle. The other thing is, you really don't think this man you love will reach his limit, you don't think they'll reach a point, because you tell yourself, he would never kill me. I had wondered often 'is he going snap this time?', victim's know in the back of their minds it *could* happen, but still think it *won't*.

She probably didn't call for the same reasons I didn't call (thank goodness my ex had no access to guns, otherwise I might say different) - she didn't want anyone to know how bad it was, it's embarrassing, you're ashamed, she might've felt it was pointless being he was a celebrity and his past with guns he had no consequences, maybe her battery was dead, and most of all, she probably didn't think he'd *actually* do it, as I think is what happens with a lot of victim's of control, manipulation and abuse (be it emotionally or physically).

And it's not her fault this happened, it's his. When she's screaming in the bathroom, he would've know her screams and that it wasn't an intruder.

JMO. Sorry for OT also, that's just my take. Sorry for the spiel, just a touchy subject, another one I get passionate about.

ETA: my ex would always 'pick fights' on occasions/holidays (after friends wedding, Christmas). Not sure this is common with these types of men, but it doesn't surprise me this happened on Valentines Day.
Click to expand...

Forgive the massive generalization, but those are the typicals of Borderline Personality Disorder.
 
OutOfTheDarkness said:
Forgive the massive generalization, but those are the typicals of Borderline Personality Disorder.
Click to expand...

Agreed. A defense lawyer might also argue PTSD, since a lot of abusers have had past traumas from being abused themselves, so again the abuser is painted as a victim. Vicious cycle really.

I still feel people should be and take responsiblity for their behavior and actions unless they are truly mentally ill (schizophrenic, etc.) JMO

I'm curious if Kim Ross will play a psychology card with DG. I wonder what diagnosis would be used? I don't think (correct me if I'm wrong) ADHD constitutes reasons to kill in the eyes of the law.
 
Lalalacasbah said:
Agreed. A defense lawyer might also argue PTSD, since a lot of abusers have had past traumas from being abused themselves, so again the abuser is painted as a victim. Vicious cycle really.

I still feel people should be and take responsiblity for their behavior and actions unless they are truly mentally ill (schizophrenic, etc.) JMO

I'm curious if Kim Ross will play a psychology card with DG. I wonder what diagnosis would be used? I don't think (correct me if I'm wrong) ADHD constitutes reasons to kill in the eyes of the law.
Click to expand...

IMO mental illness defence can be very much like the race card that OJ's defence was so successful with. People of colour that had experienced racism in their own lives supported OJ and somehow the murder of Nicole took a back seat to the detective's racist leanings.
Anyone that has gone toe to toe with depression (and yes, it is a mental illness)...at some point in their life will have empathy for someone whose brain chemicals "made them act".
I recall a time years ago that anti-depressant meds were prescribed to me. The pharmacist that filled my prescription cheerfully said to me "you'll like this one, we sell buckets of these". She even shared that she was taking them too!
Anyway, I think in the right hands the mental health defence is a very hard one to dispute,... so many grey areas.
 
Lalalacasbah said:
Agreed. A defense lawyer might also argue PTSD, since a lot of abusers have had past traumas from being abused themselves, so again the abuser is painted as a victim. Vicious cycle really.

I still feel people should be and take responsiblity for their behavior and actions unless they are truly mentally ill (schizophrenic, etc.) JMO

I'm curious if Kim Ross will play a psychology card with DG. I wonder what diagnosis would be used? I don't think (correct me if I'm wrong) ADHD constitutes reasons to kill in the eyes of the law.
Click to expand...

IMO if the evidence is such where a conviction is probable, they would only play the NCRMD to garnish sympathy for a unlikely decrease in sentence or earlier parole release. Of course with the magnitude of this case and the publicity, that would be a stretch.
I would think DG would opt for prison rather a mental hospital, given the speculation of him being a loner.
Link provided for a quick Fact Sheet read about The NCRMD Population in Canada.

"For most offenses, individuals found NCRMD tend to be detained longer under Review Boards than had they been found guilty and sentenced to prison xi."

"Less than 3% of violent offenses can be attributed to people with mental illness (when substance abuse is not present) xii."

http://www.mentalhealthcommission.c...document/MHLaw_NCRMD_Fact_Sheet_FINAL_ENG.pdf
 
Krystine said:
Anyway, I think in the right hands the mental health defence is a very hard one to dispute,... so many grey areas.
Click to expand...

<RSBM>
I agree. The mental health defense is hard to dispute. There are many diagnosis in many diverse areas. I feel that although it would be hard to disprove a mental illness, it would be a very difficult task to prove a crime was committed as a result of a mental illness.

OJ had not only the racism card to play, but also his athletic notoriety with fans in his corner. Before the trial even started, just as many people thought he was innocent, as those that thought he was guilty.
 
Krystine said:
IMO mental illness defence can be very much like the race card that OJ's defence was so successful with. People of colour that had experienced racism in their own lives supported OJ and somehow the murder of Nicole took a back seat to the detective's racist leanings.
Anyone that has gone toe to toe with depression (and yes, it is a mental illness)...at some point in their life will have empathy for someone whose brain chemicals "made them act".
I recall a time years ago that anti-depressant meds were prescribed to me. The pharmacist that filled my prescription cheerfully said to me "you'll like this one, we sell buckets of these". She even shared that she was taking them too!
Anyway, I think in the right hands the mental health defence is a very hard one to dispute,... so many grey areas.
Click to expand...

I agree that depression is a mental illness also. I'm glad depression/mental illness is being talked about more nowadays and not brushed under the rug as it was in the past. We still have a long way to go to get stereotypes and the stigmas attached gone, but at least it's being talked about more.

Psychology can be so controversial and it's interesting to hear psychologists having different opinions and even disputing diagnoses. I also agree, so many gray areas for sure. Mental Health is a can of worms to debate, so interesting, but definitely a tough topic.
 
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