Still Missing Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #29

otto

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Violence may not be acceptable in Canadian society, but it still is happening in the street and in prison. None of us encouraged DG to be beaten in prison, but if we do smile and think to ourselves that he deserved it, is that so terrible? The pain and horror he caused to his victims (and victim's families) was 1,000,000 times worse than what he was exposed to on Friday evening.

DG certainly doesn't go by the "no violence" mantra, as he had zero problem killing 3 human beings and has shown zero remorse. This is that causes the public to feel justice system is slanted to the criminals, as they get the respect, they get the presumption of innocence, they get the rights. As a person who would never dream of hurting another human being, nor an animal for that matter, I find it offensive that <modsnip> is the theme of the week now. Enough sympathy for the psycho..... he doesn't deserve it. JMO

I'm reading that some believe that there is some correlation between the crime committed, and whether prison violence is okay. Unfortunately that isn't how it works. One young man who was arrested for uttering a threat in an ESL class was beaten for "10 seconds", and he suffered permanent brain damage. I find it disturbing that people view prison violence as acceptable, but perhaps those views are influenced by the USA prison system - which is exclusively punitive by design.
 

PrincessButtercup

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I'm reading that some believe that there is some correlation between the crime committed, and whether prison violence is okay. Unfortunately that isn't how it works. One young man who was arrested for uttering a threat in an ESL class was beaten for "10 seconds", and he suffered permanent brain damage. I find it disturbing that people view prison violence as acceptable, but perhaps those views are influenced by the USA prison system - which is exclusively punitive by design.
You're right Otto, like I said in my long post a bit back, if you're okay with DG being beaten in prison you have to be okay with Alvin Chiniquay being beaten to death in his cell because if we allow prisoners to mete out punishment at their whim it will never reflect the values we have as a society. <modsnip> I think he's a monster, this is about celebrating jailhouse justice and knowing that it will always cross the line.

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I think, if the prison deliberately allowed DG to be beaten, then they should hand DG to the victims' family and let the family do exactly what he did to the victims. The torturer and murderer should have a first person experience of what he did to his victims. But it shouldn't be the fellow inmates, who are neither the victims or their families nor the judge; they are in there because they themselves had committed crimes (their own victims or families of the victims may be wishing them to be beaten by other inmates).

And if DG was to contemplate suicide in view of the life sentence, he would well likely be welcoming inmate assault.
 

Sillybilly

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No member has the right to refer to other members in a disrespectful or derogatory fashion just because they have a difference of opinion.

If it continues, TOs will be issued. Just don't do it !!
 

otto

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Reading between the lines, it sounds like something wasn't quite right at the Remand Centre.

"Charges are pending against several inmates at the Calgary Remand Centre after Douglas Garland was so severely beaten he had to be taken to hospital just hours after being sentenced in the killing a five-year-old boy and his grandparents.

...
Since his arrest in 2014, Garland has been housed in the remand centre's Unit 3, an area for inmates facing serious charges who also require some level of protection. That's where he was beaten by up to four men, according to sources.

...
Garland's lawyer, Kim Ross, said he met with his client on Monday night. "I have some grave concerns about what happened," said Ross. "I'm trying to get a hold of some people at the remand centre to determine what happened."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...and-assault-beating-charges-pending-1.3992824
 

winnnancy

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Thank you!
If I smirked a little when I heard that DG took a beating, that didn't make me a a triple murderer. Nor did it cause the beating. Nor did it encourage the beating. Nor is the world going to go to hell in a hand basket cuz I smirked.

<modsnip>

Imho

.


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How terrible that this *injustice* was discovered. I have always maintained that the murdererer of sweet Nathan and his grandparents should get the " justice" they so deserve.
can a "go fund me" campaign be started for the alleged assailants?
 

MistyWaters

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"In an opening statement, assistant chief Crown prosecutor Kim Goddard told the jury this is not a case of “whodunnit.” Instead, she said jurors must determine if Pasieka intended to kill his victims, and whether or not the attack was planned and deliberate."
http://edmontonjournal.com/news/crime/trial-for-man-accused-in-warehouse-stabbing-spree-begins

Sound familiar? However this case involved warehouse murders, two killed and four injured. Assuming the accused is convicted of 1st Degree murder, it will be interesting to see if the sentence is 25 or 50 years. This is another case where it would've appeared a Guilty plea was a given.
 

Elise

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You're right Otto, like I said in my long post a bit back, if you're okay with DG being beaten in prison you have to be okay with Alvin Chiniquay being beaten to death in his cell because if we allow prisoners to mete out punishment at their whim it will never reflect the values we have as a society. <modsnip> I think he's a monster, this is about celebrating jailhouse justice and knowing that it will always cross the line.

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I'm going to have to disagree with this. Just because one doesn't care that a child killer was beaten in prison, doesn't mean they're ok with every other inmate being beaten in prison. I, for one, don't care one bit that this monster was hurt, and honestly, I wouldn't care if it happened to him every single day for the next 50 years. If he had somehow gotten off for this and had the same thing happen to him on the streets, I wouldn't care, either.

That said, I do feel very sorry for Alvin Chiniquay (had to look him up), and think what happened to him is disgusting. How do I live with my conflicting thoughts, you may wonder? I simply view things on a case by case basis. What might be fine to me in one scenerio isn't necessarily fine to me in another.

BUT, I do see where you (and some others here) are coming from. To you, any act of violence is unacceptable. I respect that, even though I don't feel the same. I want to be clear that I don't think prison should be some sort of free for all, but I'm also not concerned about this guy's comfort level, either. I have always felt that nonviolent offenders should be kept completely separate from the violent ones. Would that stop every beating? Of course not, but I do think it could at least make it a little safer for those that can actually be rehabilitated. I can't even pretend I care about people like DG, though. Not even a little bit.

I have absolutely no sympathy towards him. I don't care what happened to him that may or may not have caused him to eventually commit these horrific acts. He didn't just snap and shoot this family. He planned to torture and kill them. He could've at least had mercy on little Nathan. He could've tied him up in the house if he was worried that once Nathan alerted a neighbor, his plan to torture and kill the grandparents might be interrupted. That child had never even seen him before, it's unlikely he could've identified him at all. He had little to worry about by leaving him alive in the residence, yet he chose to murder a defenseless child. For that, along with what he did to Alvin and Kathy Liknes, he gets not one ounce of sympathy from me.
 

DarkSkink

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I'm going to have to disagree with this. Just because one doesn't care that a child killer was beaten in prison, doesn't mean they're ok with every other inmate being beaten in prison. I, for one, don't care one bit that this monster was hurt, and honestly, I wouldn't care if it happened to him every single day for the next 50 years. If he had somehow gotten off for this and had the same thing happen to him on the streets, I wouldn't care, either.

That said, I do feel very sorry for Alvin Chiniquay (had to look him up), and think what happened to him is disgusting. How do I live with my conflicting thoughts, you may wonder? I simply view things on a case by case basis. What might be fine to me in one scenerio isn't necessarily fine to me in another.

BUT, I do see where you (and some others here) are coming from. To you, any act of violence is unacceptable. I respect that, even though I don't feel the same. I want to be clear that I don't think prison should be some sort of free for all, but I'm also not concerned about this guy's comfort level, either. I have always felt that nonviolent offenders should be kept completely separate from the violent ones. Would that stop every beating? Of course not, but I do think it could at least make it a little safer for those that can actually be rehabilitated. I can't even pretend I care about people like DG, though. Not even a little bit.

I have absolutely no sympathy towards him. I don't care what happened to him that may or may not have caused him to eventually commit these horrific acts. He didn't just snap and shoot this family. He planned to torture and kill them. He could've at least had mercy on little Nathan. He could've tied him up in the house if he was worried that once Nathan alerted a neighbor, his plan to torture and kill the grandparents might be interrupted. That child had never even seen him before, it's unlikely he could've identified him at all. He had little to worry about by leaving him alive in the residence, yet he chose to murder a defenseless child. For that, along with what he did to Alvin and Kathy Liknes, he gets not one ounce of sympathy from me.
Much like everyone thinks DG got what was coming to him, laws be damned, he likely feels the same about Alvin and the rest of the family.

<mod snip>
 

Tinkerbel1

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I also do not want him beaten.
I think anyone's expectation that we should feel empathy for him is unrealistic and I choose to save my support and empathy for the family.
I like you want him locked away for the protection of society and believe the family do not need to see him constantly in the media.
I remember Justice gates saying there were no mitigating factors in this case.
Sadly I do not think DG is ever going to remorse or guilt more like anger at getting caught.

"Empathy" is the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes. It's not the same as 'sympathy'. "Compassion" is the ability to be empathetic and to find forgiveness in your heart and mind for someone who may not be as fortunate in life as to have a normal thought process, social skills and a balanced mind.

It is extremely easy to have empathy, sympathy and compassion for all of the victims, that's a given. There's no one on this entire planet that doesn't sympathize with the victims. It's not so easy to find that for someone who has done such a horrific thing as this. I am in no way religious (I may have already mentioned this), but I'm sure most that were brought up Christian remembers the part in the bible at Jesus' crucifixion where he said "Forgive them father, they know not what they do". That's the hard part and that is where our lessons towards contributing to peace on this planet lie. No one deserves to be beaten, tortured and killed. No one.

It is not necessary for anyone to find empathy, sympathy, compassion, understanding or forgiveness for Douglas Garland....but try and hate what he did, not him as a human being. We can't decide that anyone deserves any sort of abuse, no matter how angry their behavior has made us. Unfortunately, the only person we hurt when we wish harm on someone else or for that person to be deemed 'undeserving' of life and beaten to death, and to take great pleasure in his harm or death, is ourselves.

On another note, I'm not sure it's a good idea for the news to report he will be going to the Edmonton Max. Some vigilante, ego-driven idiot will probably run them off the road to be the 'hero' that killed Douglas Garland...unfortunately again, he's not the only one in the transport vehicle. For people to actually be issuing death threats on public social media, is disturbing and disgusting. You know the saying ... "if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. I think we can all clean up our acts and teach our children right from wrong by our own behavior towards others. Everyone deserves kindness...even the criminals. JMO
 

Tinkerbel1

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My point is/was we should be talking about prison violence or violence in our society but DG is not the best poster boy. Totally natural that most people would not care about his difficulties.

It may be 'totally natural" that most don't care about his difficulties which is likely why this happened in the first place. I'm going to put my hand up and say that anyone that doesn't care whether DG (or any other inmate) has to fight for his life in prison...is seriously demonstrating the same characteristics as the one they would turn a blind eye to that was in prison. Do you feel sorry for someone that has cancer? Tell me what is the difference between that kind of illness (they are human beings with malfunction in their bodies) and DG's illness(s) (he is a human being with a malfunction in his brain and his thought processes) ... neither of these sick individuals asked for their particular set of circumstances. You may argue that the cancer patient did not murder anyone and DG did. He did what he did obviously because something is not right with him upstairs. Despite the differences in their illnesses...they are both human beings that deserve the basic necessities, a safe place to call home (whether its jail or a mansion), and the right to be here.
 

Tinkerbel1

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I think, if the prison deliberately allowed DG to be beaten, then they should hand DG to the victims' family and let the family do exactly what he did to the victims. The torturer and murderer should have a first person experience of what he did to his victims. But it shouldn't be the fellow inmates, who are neither the victims or their families nor the judge; they are in there because they themselves had committed crimes (their own victims or families of the victims may be wishing them to be beaten by other inmates).

And if DG was to contemplate suicide in view of the life sentence, he would well likely be welcoming inmate assault.

If you gave DG to the victim's families, I don't think they would do the same to him as he did. They have never publically trashed DG, so my feeling is their way would be of forgiveness. They speak of God meting out his punishment, not themselves. They have a lot of years left to live and I feel that they would like to bring in as much peace into their lives as possible, so repeating his behavior isn't going to bring that in, besides, I don't think they could do it.

DG may be suicidal, but I doubt he would welcome being beat to death...most suicides want it quick and painless. Really, he could just choke himself to death by swallowing his coffee or soup spoon...I imagine that would be a lot less painful.
 

dogmatica

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Think I'll have to bow out of here for a while - a little too much sympathy and expectation of others to show sympathy and compassion for Garland. I find it distasteful and offensive. It's been nice getting to know some of you.

Cheers.
 

naz

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It may be 'totally natural" that most don't care about his difficulties which is likely why this happened in the first place. I'm going to put my hand up and say that anyone that doesn't care whether DG (or any other inmate) has to fight for his life in prison...is seriously demonstrating the same characteristics as the one they would turn a blind eye to that was in prison. Do you feel sorry for someone that has cancer? Tell me what is the difference between that kind of illness (they are human beings with malfunction in their bodies) and DG's illness(s) (he is a human being with a malfunction in his brain and his thought processes) ... neither of these sick individuals asked for their particular set of circumstances. You may argue that the cancer patient did not murder anyone and DG did. He did what he did obviously because something is not right with him upstairs. Despite the differences in their illnesses...they are both human beings that deserve the basic necessities, a safe place to call home (whether its jail or a mansion), and the right to be here.


If Clifford Olson has cancer, he would get treatment ( I'm not sure if he still alive) no one in the system would oppose it... wherever his treatment was successful or not, I would not know because I could not be bothered to check up on him.. Not interested in his welfare, that does not mean that I'm against inmates receiving treatment.

As for DG, yes he has mental issues. Do I wish there was better protection for inmates, I do. I'm a willing to agree prisons should get priority over schools.. long time care, mental health.? hmm

So if DG for the rest of his life has unfortunate incidents, I won't hesitate to blame the prison system, but I won't come accompanied with sympathy for him. Keep him safe and away..for the rest of his days . I do not need an update on his well being... I'm sure the rest of his life will be miserable even when safe in his jail cell.

If someone is stunting and crashed their cars , should I sympathize?

If some guy drive at very high speed, burn a light and T bone a car full of people. Should I sympathize?

But DG should get sympathy or understanding because he has a mental illness? Who draws the line..

That still is cause and effect.
.
 

MistyWaters

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If you gave DG to the victim's families, I don't think they would do the same to him as he did. They have never publically trashed DG, so my feeling is their way would be of forgiveness. They speak of God meting out his punishment, not themselves. They have a lot of years left to live and I feel that they would like to bring in as much peace into their lives as possible, so repeating his behavior isn't going to bring that in, besides, I don't think they could do it.

DG may be suicidal, but I doubt he would welcome being beat to death...most suicides want it quick and painless. Really, he could just choke himself to death by swallowing his coffee or soup spoon...I imagine that would be a lot less painful.

Here's a lînk to the VIctim Impact Statements.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/garland-victim-impact-statements-1.3989495

The family is far too respectful and refined to advocate breaking the law through vigilante justice committed by anyone, but where are you seeing forgiveness in their words??? In speaking of God's punishment, that's exactly the opposite to forgiveness. That they recognize evil is their right.
 

PrincessButtercup

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If Clifford Olson has cancer, he would get treatment ( I'm not sure if he still alive) no one in the system would oppose it... wherever his treatment was successful or not, I would not know because I could not be bothered to check up on him.. Not interested in his welfare, that does not mean that I'm against inmates receiving treatment.

As for DG, yes he has mental issues. Do I wish there was better protection for inmates, I do. I'm a willing to agree prisons should get priority from over schools.. long time care, mental health.? hmm

So if DG for the rest of his life has unfortunate incidents, I won't hesitate to blame the prison system, but I won't come accompanied with sympathy for him. Keep him safe and away..for the rest of his days . I do not need an update on his well being... I'm sure the rest of his life will be miserable even when safe in his jail cell.

If someone is stunting and crashed their cars , should I sympathize?

If some guy drive at very high speed, burn a light and T bone a car full of people. Should I sympathize?

But DG should get sympathy or understanding because he has a mental illness? Who draws the line..

That still is cause and effect.
.
Clifford Olson did have cancer and died in prison.

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Oregonmama

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I do not think it is really fair and healthy to debate our interpretations of the victims impact statements. It is their words, not ours and I respectfully feel that we are dragging them down. This is the victim's personal story and we were invited to share their experience by watching the investigation and trial occur but we were not invited to be part of their personal conversations in regards to their feelings about the defendant.
 

MistyWaters

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It may be 'totally natural" that most don't care about his difficulties which is likely why this happened in the first place. I'm going to put my hand up and say that anyone that doesn't care whether DG (or any other inmate) has to fight for his life in prison...is seriously demonstrating the same characteristics as the one they would turn a blind eye to that was in prison. Do you feel sorry for someone that has cancer? Tell me what is the difference between that kind of illness (they are human beings with malfunction in their bodies) and DG's illness(s) (he is a human being with a malfunction in his brain and his thought processes) ... neither of these sick individuals asked for their particular set of circumstances. You may argue that the cancer patient did not murder anyone and DG did. He did what he did obviously because something is not right with him upstairs. Despite the differences in their illnesses...they are both human beings that deserve the basic necessities, a safe place to call home (whether its jail or a mansion), and the right to be here.

What evidence was presented to indicate "something is not right with him upstairs"?

I recall Garland's only defence was there wasn't enough direct evidence to prove him guilty and of course the jury saw otherwise. No mitigating circumstances were mentioned during sentencing either. His mother said he was "an unhappy man"?

When was it mentioned that Garland was diagnosed with any sort of affliction that would cause him to not know the difference between right and wrong???
 

MistyWaters

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