Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #12

Discussion in 'Crimes in the News' started by dotr, Dec 15, 2017.

  1. WINDSOR

    WINDSOR Well-Known Member

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    The camera had not been turned on? Interesting, how do they know when it was on or off last? Based on the recording of the in-house recorder? What if there was an out of the house recorder?

    I am not very techy, but my son has a camera in his son's room, so when the baby is sleeping he can check on him from a little hand held monitor. To me the scene in the pool area, could have been recorded and viewed by somebody off site. I think that would have been pretty simple in this day and age.
     
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  2. Lexiintoronto

    Lexiintoronto Well-Known Member

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    Closed circuit maybe viewable on their TVs? Maybe the killer was familiar with that camera, or tech-savvy.

    Theory-
    -they were alive when first restrained at the pool. Not by the neck. They may have each been leaning against a pole of the railing, (the pole between their backs and their arms) their coats were then put on their arms and rolled up to restrain them.

    We know ultimately BS had his legs outstretched and crossed. His jacket was pulled down, restraining his arms. (My suggestion differs).

    Perhaps HS was in a similar position.

    Why? They were being monitored. If they were to move or change position it would be difficult for the Shermans and very easy for the killer(s) to notice.

    Their wrists were apparently restrained by a ligature at some point. The killer(s) may have removed them as a concession of sorts.

    ETA: My guess is there had to be a reason that they were just not shot outside the home, or some other quick death. My opinion is that the killer wanted time either with the Shermans or in the home.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2019
  3. dotr

    dotr Well-Known Member

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    rbbm.
    https://www.researchgate.net/public...positions_of_Victim_Bodies_Staging_and_Posing
    "The act of leaving a victim's body in an unusual position is a conscious criminal action by an offender to thwart an investigation, shock the finder and investigators of the crime scene, or give perverted pleasure to the killer. The unusual position concepts of posing and staging a murder victim have been documented thoroughly and have been accepted by the courts as a definable phenomenon. One staging case and one posing case are outlined and reveal characteristics of those homicides. From the Washington State Attorney General's Homicide Investigation and Tracking System's database on murder covering the years 1981-2000 (a total of 5,224 cases), the relative frequency of unusual body dispositions is revealed as a very rare occurrence. Only 1.3% of victims are left in an unusual position, with 0.3% being posed and 0.1% being staged. The characteristics of these types of murders also set them apart: compared to all other murders, in staged murders the victims and killers are, on average, older. All victims and offenders in the staged murders are white, with victims being disproportionately white in murders with any kind of unusual body disposition. Likewise, females stand out as victims when the body is posed, staged, or left in other unusual positions. Whereas posed bodies are more likely to include sexual assault, often in serial murders, there is no evidence of either in the staged cases. Lastly, when a body is left in an unusual position, binding is more likely, as well as the use of more "hands on" means of killing the victim, such as stabbing or cutting weapons, bludgeons, ligatures, or hands and feet."
     
  4. casesensitive

    casesensitive Well-Known Member

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    "when a body is left in an unusual position, binding is more likely, as well as the use of more "hands on" means of killing the victim, such as stabbing or cutting weapons, bludgeons, ligatures, or hands and feet."

    This falls in line with how Mike Arntfield (criminologist) described the Sherman murders--"It's a very up-close, intimate, domineering, rage-induced manner of killing someone."

    My question is was the person with the motive at the scene, or did he/she/they instruct hired killers to use this method? It's possible that hired killers had to show some type of proof that they fulfilled their wishes.
     
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  5. casesensitive

    casesensitive Well-Known Member

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    This brings to mind the surveillance video that a CBC supervisor mentioned to KW. We don' t know if it actually exists, but I do believe KW was told it does, for whatever reason. It apparently shows someone who looks like Barry shutting off the camera in the pool room. The killer could have forced BS do that before he was killed. If this video does exist, it certainly would lead investigators to think a murder/suicide took placed.
     
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  6. Lexiintoronto

    Lexiintoronto Well-Known Member

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    So the killer has staged the bodies with great purpose. It’s significant to him.

    I’d be curious to know with the Sherman case how the killer might react to incorrect information about how the victims were found, and how the killer might respond.

    For example, Greenspan told us this about the crime scene:

    https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4878887

    If Greenspan has any details wrong, I wonder what Mike Arntfield might say about how the killer would react.

    In the Zodiac killer case, when incorrect information was reported about his crimes, he wrote to the media with proof to correct them:

    https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.history.com/.amp/news/the-zodiac-killer-a-timeline
     
  7. Lexiintoronto

    Lexiintoronto Well-Known Member

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    Thought I’d dig it up. Found one post by Kerry Winter on the topic. I believe there was more than one:

    Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #10

    ETA: fwiw, I think what Kerry writes and how he writes is interesting to read.
     
  8. ldlager

    ldlager Well-Known Member

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    I would suggest that there were 2 or even 3 people involved in executing these murders. It would not be easy for one person to lift the bodies and attach the belts on their own, Barry and honey were not small people. I do not believe they were suspended then strangled, as there isn’t much room between the railing and the pool edge for the killer to stand on and strangle them from behind. I suppose you can strangle someone from the front, but every time I see someone commit a murder in this way in the movies it’s from behind. So I think there would have been at least 2 killers, and maybe a third serving as a lookout upstairs.

    So how did 2 or 3 people get to the house unseen? Very difficult imo given the cameras I suspect are located outside houses in the area. My bet is that LE has video from the neighbourhood of these killers walking. But whether they can identify them is an entirely different story. It would have been dark, they may have been wearing hats or hoodies, etc.

    Imo given the close personal contact that must have been involved in the murders, the killers would probably have left DNA evidence behind- hair, fibres, etc. I don’t know if LE collected or found this- Greenspan indicated their evidence collection was subpar. And it apparently took a long time for LE to even request DNA samples and other info from those that were in the house, so perhaps there wasn’t potentially conclusive DNA evidence at the scene that LE has. Even if LE has DNA evidence, the killers may not be in any database, especially if they are from another country (which is what I suspect).

    So my guess is that LE has video or pictures and maybe even some DNA clues, but LE has no practical way to use this evidence to identify the killers. I don’t buy that they know who they are and that they are watching them to discover who hired them.

    Moo
     
  9. Lexiintoronto

    Lexiintoronto Well-Known Member

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  10. ldlager

    ldlager Well-Known Member

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  11. Arnie M

    Arnie M Well-Known Member

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    Thinking out loud for a minute ..... with a pinch of occam's razor thrown in ....

    Whoever did the killing would have expected security systems and cameras would be present in the house .... and not taken the risk .

    However it is apparent (at least to me) that the suspect(s) knew there were no live cameras and knew the camera in the pool room was disabled or turned away.

    (To me) that should greatly narrow down the suspect list . It has to be someone who knew the house very well.

    Anyone else agree ?
     
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  12. Lexiintoronto

    Lexiintoronto Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you.

    The killer (‘A’- close to the Shermans) knew about the normal lack of, or lack of use, of a security system.

    But the prior to the house being on the market, it might make sense that the Shermans utilized the security features. Maybe make sure the camera was operational.

    If not for their own protection, but as a selling feature. When you sell a home, whatever is in place should be in working order.

    Why I think the killers may have used the camera: Just speculation, but if one of the killers was known to them, they might want to ensure the Shermans were dead but from a distance.

    Killer, or killers, brutally murdered the Shermans. Maybe the order for the murder was to make it look peaceful, or like a m/s. (HS suffered facial injuries, that doesn’t fit my theory.)

    Click on the camera, bodies are staged in a manner where if they moved it would be obvious. Check at one point, then 20 minutes later, and again. Just to know they were deceased.

    Before leaving, click the camera off or leave it if it was working.

    The Shermans were facing away from the pool, so maybe only a side profile of their faces (or just BS’s face) were visible. Maybe killer ‘A’ didn’t wish to see their faces after their deaths.

    We know the murders were brutal. Maybe the staging was to make it appear less horrific than it was.

    BS, legs outstretched and crossed with his glasses on his face, may have appeared to have passed peacefully. (Despite the belt.)

    Remember Greenspan saying he KNEW that the pool area hadn’t been vacuumed by TPS forensic personnel? Maybe he knew because they were remotely watching the crime scene via that camera.

    Or maybe that was the point of killing them there- they could have film and audio of the crime scene investigation. (?) Not sure if that’s possible, but what if?
     
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  13. ldlager

    ldlager Well-Known Member

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    Yes that makes sense. I believe that the party that organized and paid for the killings knew the Sherman’s, their schedules/habits, and knew about the lack of security in the house. I also believe they hired killers, and they would have filled in the killers on all of this information before the murders took place.

    I can’t see them turning on and off the camera in the pool during the killings. Not sure they would even know how or if these images could be streamed to whoever wanted to watch. Wouldn’t it be easier to just use a cell phone to record video, or take photos? I’m sure there is a way to remain hidden using burner phones or similar, or just taking photos and sending them once they had left the city.

    Imo, like Windsor posted a few pages ago, there are likely fewer than 10 logical suspects.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2019
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  14. ldlager

    ldlager Well-Known Member

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  15. WINDSOR

    WINDSOR Well-Known Member

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    I believe professional criminals always assume there will be security systems and/or recording devices on the premises they are entering. They are prepared beforehand to deal with these security systems. Therefore I think the suggestion that it had to be somebody who knew the home and its security systems, is not necessarily true. There are jammers and other devices that can effectively interrupt and defeat the most sophisticated security systems, even wireless transmitters.
     
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  16. dotr

    dotr Well-Known Member

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    FWIW..
    https://www.tctechsystems.com/anti-facial-recognition/
    "Fooling Cameras and Human Viewers
    How Anti-Facial Recognition Works
    Human beings are remarkably poor at recognizing and identifying strangers. This is one of the reasons why witness identifications are so fraught with problems in the courtroom. While it is easy to remember someone’s cap or coat, it is much harder to remember the specific details of their face.

    You can capitalize on this tendency by deliberately surrounding yourself with people who look and dress like you. For example, make sure to wear a jersey or a team hat when you go to a football game. If you look like everyone else in the crowd, no one will be able to remember you specifically. Then, take public transportation or rent a cab to get to the location so that cameras cannot capture your license plate number.

    Now that you have disguised yourself from human viewers, you also need to prevent facial recognition from recognizing you. Facial recognition can be fooled by changing the general lines and contours of your face. At the moment, technology cannot actually tell that a bunch of long bangs over your face are not a part of your face itself.

    Facial recognition basically looks at the spatial relationship of facial features, your tonal colors, and your overall facial symmetry. If you can significantly change any of these aspects, you can prevent cameras from identifying you. By making simple changes like adding long bangs or a scar along your face, you can actually make your identity invisible to cameras."
     
  17. gregjrichards

    gregjrichards Well-Known Member

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    I’m beginning to wonder if this case will ever be solved.
     
  18. ldlager

    ldlager Well-Known Member

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    After stating early in 2019 that arrests would be made in 2019, and that the police had a number of suspects, Warmington has been completely silent on this case for months. Surely it he had some(any) insights he would publish something. I guess maybe his sources aren’t as reliable as he thought...
    Expect the Toronto Star to have a few articles soon, in support of Kevin Donovan’s upcoming book. There may be a few nuggets in there, let’s hope so!
     
  19. WINDSOR

    WINDSOR Well-Known Member

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    Regarding possible suspects. If I am correct that the actual killers were from a foreign land, hired by the perpetrator, I think considering the following might be useful. List the people in each category and compare.

    Who were the people who?

    1. Had past interaction with Apotex/Shermans.

    2. Had dispute with Apotex/Shermans, most likely recorded in the courts.

    3. Had substantial funds to pay for the operation.

    4. Possibly had either business or banking operations in a country with easy money transfer rules and lax banking regulations.

    5. Possibly had history with foreign governments, espionage, police or military assets.

    6. Possibly expressed publicly, displeasure with Apotex/Shermans.

    Again I could be way off on my theory of hired foreign killers, but if not, this elimination process would likely produce some suspects.

    Unless the TPS have a better theory, I would think they have been doing something similar in looking for suspects.
     
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  20. Hann

    Hann Active Member

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    What if solving this case would open Pandora box figuratively speaking?
    If hired killers, foreign governments, police or military assets are involved a chance of arrest is zero.
     

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