Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #4

[zencompass]

I hope the hired investigators are not influenced to agree with the outcome their employers want just to get paid.

From what I have read about Tom Klatt, the private investigator, it doesn't sound as if he would ever risk his good reputation.

From the article (below):

"A private investigative firm, led by a well-respected, retired Toronto police homicide detective who touts “discretion” and “definitive final conclusions” for his clients has been retained by the family of Barry and Honey Sherman to probe the couple’s deaths."

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...micide-detective-probing-shermans-deaths.html




ETA: I'm interested in hearing the "definitive final conclusions" he "touts".

 

[cluciano63]

Even if LE “jumped the gun” in indicating murder/suicide, I doubt they messed up the scene too badly to investigate properly. Wasn’t the house still being held as a crime scene as of a week or so back?

OT-ish...shocking number of murder/suicides of late.

 

[Grey-St]

I've given up on this case. It's quite apparent that the family doesn't want to believe that suicide was involved and that they have made it known that they will challenge whatever LE finds. With the threat of litigation, cops have gone silent and the only info that we will get is going to come from the family's lawyer. IMO the only ones that have all the facts are LE. They have no reason to lie or cover this up. I'm not sure if there are insurance policies that don't include suicide/murder, or if they are simply trying to protect their parents legacy, but bullying the police in to saying what you want them to say is no way to conduct an investigation. Just another example of how people with money are able to do things that you and I can't. If it was you or I, the investigation would have been wrapped up in a couple of days. Case closed. Now LE is wasting taxpayer dollars doing an in depth investigation that will likely yield the same results as what they originally would have concluded.

I don't see how the family has been threatening in anyway, or is only looking for what they want to hear? They put pressure on TPS to preform a thorough investigation. That's not a waste of taxpayers money. It's the exact investigation that every single case should respectfully get. It's exactly what our tax dollars should provide. CC. Tess Richey, Laura Babcock, Wayne Millard, and plethora of others. They spoke out, so what?

People want to so easily shame them because they are wealthy. While I too can become annoyed by the rich, and get frustrated by how unfair it seems at time that those that are wealthy can reap the benefits of private health care and private investigations and zero wait-lists, etc, I would likely do the same if I were in their shoes and had their resources. A private investigation will not give them the results "they want to here", it's about being extra thorough, extra sure, and if my parents died in the way theirs did, I'd want to be extra sure too.

 

[MistyWaters]

Even if LE “jumped the gun” in indicating murder/suicide, I doubt they messed up the scene too badly to investigate properly. Wasn’t the house still being held as a crime scene as of a week or so back?

OT-ish...shocking number of murder/suicides of late.

I've not noticed precisely at what point the specialized homicide team took over from the division unit. It was a full day later when the Police Spokesman announced that had occured. And I'm not intending to demean police officers assigned to a division unit but generally their role is focused on theft, breakins, traffic accidents, illegal drugs, assaults and so forth. It's just that the days are long gone when everyone is knowledgable at everything in large police departments.

My only point was, if homicide was initially suspected, from the very beginning the crime scene would be processed far differently than if LE assumed a murder-suicide with no outside criminal involvement had taken place. My thoughts are based on the early reports, prior to any autopsy results being known, regarding the comments about a murder-suicide. Say for example, what if the victims had been drugged and the suicide staged?

 

[dotr]

January 8 2018
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/rep...certificate-for-indian-plant/article37529341/
U.K. health officials pull Apotex's manufacturing certificate for Indian Plant
[url]https://www.firstwordpharma.com/node/1535601?tsid=1
[/URL]

• The UK's Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) revoked Apotex's manufacturing certificate for its Indian plant in Bangalore after finding lapses in good manufacturing practices requirements, The Globe and Mail reported Monday.
  
  
• The agency, which sited the facility last month, identified several failings related to non-sterile products, packaging and quality control testing.
  
• The MHRA also urged other EU countries to "contact the site to determine the level of risk associated with specific products released to market."

 

[dotr]

January 9 2018
https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/sherman-lawyer-suggests-police-misled-public-1.3751981?autoPlay=true

Steve Ryan, another former TPS homicide detective and ex-colleague of Klatt’s, says police are trying to do a thorough job in the case and are simply trying to get all the facts.

“There must have been compelling evidence in that home for them to make that announcement,” Ryan said of the early statements in the case, during an interview with CP24 on Tuesday. “There’s no other reason to do it.”

He acknowledged that the Sherman family is angry about leaks from the police investigation, but said that’s inevitable. “You can never stop leaks,” said Ryan, who spent two decades in the sex crimes unit and 15 years working homicide with the TPS.

Ryan says he doesn’t know the Sherman family’s motive for hiring a private investigator, but says he only saw two families take that path during his own 15-year homicide career.

“They did that because they weren’t happy with the conclusions that I came to,” Ryan said of the cases. “So they hired a private investigator to review my findings to see if they could come to a different conclusion, and they didn’t at the end of the day.”

 

[JDG]

January 8 2018
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/rep...certificate-for-indian-plant/article37529341/
U.K. health officials pull Apotex's manufacturing certificate for Indian Plant
https://www.firstwordpharma.com/node/1535601?tsid=1

Seems like Apotex products are being checked out very carefully now. The birth control pill issue was known awhile back but seems quality control wasn't as good as it could have been. IMO

Many people think generic drugs are as good as the name brand but they are less potent depending on the rules/regulations of the country.
I think in North America, its allowed to be as low as 90% efficacy. Now thats fine if your body works well on 90% of the drug but we are all just a little bit different chemically....what if your body needs 95% efficacy? Depending on what its for, i.e. heart/lung/other major organs...it could be life threatening to use less. IMO MOO MHO

I hope the Canadian government reviews it all very carefully. Then, I hope they renew the contracts and decrease the price by the approx 20% premium we pay for these less potent drugs. Maybe more. IMO

 

[andreww]

I don't see how the family has been threatening in anyway, or is only looking for what they want to hear? They put pressure on TPS to preform a thorough investigation. That's not a waste of taxpayers money. It's the exact investigation that every single case should respectfully get. It's exactly what our tax dollars should provide. CC. Tess Richey, Laura Babcock, Wayne Millard, and plethora of others. They spoke out, so what?

People want to so easily shame them because they are wealthy. While I too can become annoyed by the rich, and get frustrated by how unfair it seems at time that those that are wealthy can reap the benefits of private health care and private investigations and zero wait-lists, etc, I would likely do the same if I were in their shoes and had their resources. A private investigation will not give them the results "they want to here", it's about being extra thorough, extra sure, and if my parents died in the way theirs did, I'd want to be extra sure too.

Well, having the mayor of Toronto speak to the police chief on their behalf seems a bit intimidating. Did they threaten legal action against the papers that reported the suicide? And hiring a private investigator before police have even issued an official report doesn't bode well. Mark my words, this case is going to get ugly.

 

[zencompass]

I don't see how the family has been threatening in anyway, or is only looking for what they want to hear? They put pressure on TPS to preform a thorough investigation. That's not a waste of taxpayers money. It's the exact investigation that every single case should respectfully get. It's exactly what our tax dollars should provide. CC. Tess Richey, Laura Babcock, Wayne Millard, and plethora of others. They spoke out, so what?

People want to so easily shame them because they are wealthy. While I too can become annoyed by the rich, and get frustrated by how unfair it seems at time that those that are wealthy can reap the benefits of private health care and private investigations and zero wait-lists, etc, I would likely do the same if I were in their shoes and had their resources. A private investigation will not give them the results "they want to here", it's about being extra thorough, extra sure, and if my parents died in the way theirs did, I'd want to be extra sure too.

Grey-St,

Best post I've read in a long time.

Another poster on this thread stated they thought that the police are intimidated by the wealth and that there will not be cause of death released by the police. This could not possibly happen and it won't.

The Toronto Police Services are mandated to release the results of their investigation to the community.

To not release their findings would be in direct opposition to their Core Values as well as their Professional Standards.

http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/mission-values.php

http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/professionalstandards/mandate.php#

 

[andreww]

Seems like Apotex products are being checked out very carefully now. The birth control pill issue was known awhile back but seems quality control wasn't as good as it could have been. IMO

Many people think generic drugs are as good as the name brand but they are less potent depending on the rules/regulations of the country.
I think in North America, its allowed to be as low as 90% efficacy. Now thats fine if your body works well on 90% of the drug but we are all just a little bit different chemically....what if your body needs 95% efficacy? Depending on what its for, i.e. heart/lung/other major organs...it could be life threatening to use less. IMO MOO MHO

I hope the Canadian government reviews it all very carefully. Then, I hope they renew the contracts and decrease the price by the approx 20% premium we pay for these less potent drugs. Maybe more. IMO

A little off topic but I can't stand guys like Barry Sherman. Generic drugs are never as good as the name brands that their recipe is stolen from. My daughter needs a certain allergy medicine and recently the pharmacist substituted a generic equivalent. Turns out that my daughter was allergic to the very medicine that was to be used in an allergy emergency. Bottom line is that now I have to pay extra for the name brand as the insurance company will only cover the generic substitute. So the insurance company gets richer, recipe thief Barry Sherman gets rich, and the rest of us have to live with second rate drugs.

 

[zencompass]

It will take awhile for the police to release their conclusion facts of this investigation.

They are government officials and while it may take some time before they make a statement about the conclusion of their investigation, they will release their findings.

Greenspan and Klatt hold high standards to themselves. I would be surprised if their independent autopsies did not reveal the manner of death. Perhaps they are continuing their investigation to show the Sherman children that there is no other conclusion than what they have discovered.

I have faith that the manner of death will be announced by the Toronto Police Services. I'm just not sure when.

 

[andreww]

Grey-St,

Best post I've read in a long time.

The Toronto Police Services are mandated to release the results of their investigation to the community.

To not release their findings would be in direct opposition to their Core Values as well as their Professional Standards.

http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/mission-values.php

http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/professionalstandards/mandate.php#

They don't have to release anything if they decide not to close the case.

 

[dotr]

Curious about this statement, is the suggestion that HS was (initially) at one end of the home? imo, speculation.
" dragging her body from one end of the home at 50 Colony Rd. to the pool"
http://torontosun.com/news/local-news/sherman-family-lawyer-lambastes-cops-over-murder-suicide-call

But Barry Sherman was never short of enemies: From big pharma rivals to stiffed handymen, the mogul wielded legal paper like an axe during his long, litigious career. And no axe was too small to grind

Since their deaths, the Shermans’ four children have put together a dream team of investigators and legal firepower to undertake a parallel probe.

But Greenspan was tight-lipped on the direction of his investigation.

Family friends have noted that Honey Sherman was in ill health and dragging her body from one end of the home at 50 Colony Rd. to the pool would have been extremely arduous for her husband.

rbbm.

 

[zencompass]

A little off topic but I can't stand guys like Barry Sherman. Generic drugs are never as good as the name brands that their recipe is stolen from. My daughter needs a certain allergy medicine and recently the pharmacist substituted a generic equivalent. Turns out that my daughter was allergic to the very medicine that was to be used in an allergy emergency. Bottom line is that now I have to pay extra for the name brand as the insurance company will only cover the generic substitute. So the insurance company gets richer, recipe thief Barry Sherman gets rich, and the rest of us have to live with second rate drugs.

Dear Andreww,

I'm very sorry to hear what happened. I hope your daughter is okay.

That would have been a frightening experience. All medicine, especially allergy medicine is extremely serious.

I, too, have my doubts about the integrity of generic medicine.

 

[zencompass]

Curious about this statement, is the suggestion that HS was (initially) at one end of the home? imo, speculation.
" dragging her body from one end of the home at 50 Colony Rd. to the pool"
http://torontosun.com/news/local-news/sherman-family-lawyer-lambastes-cops-over-murder-suicide-call




rbbm.

Dear Dotr,

I appreciate your posts so much. You are so insightful as well as greatly compassionate.

There is so much in this case that just doesn't fit - or make sense - to me.

One day I think one way - and then I argue against it (to myself). Then the next day I think another way.

I concentrate more on forensic behaviour. But sometimes the scenario doesn't add up.

 

[dotr]

Dear Andreww,

I'm very sorry to hear what happened. I hope your daughter is okay.

That would have been a frightening experience. All medicine, especially allergy medicine is extremely serious.

I, too, have my doubts about the integrity of generic medicine.

A very astute family member was purchasing very specialized medicine for someone, when the pharm. gave pills with a very similar look and name to the needed product.
When the difference was noted, right on the spot- the pharm. refused to believe it and actually argued about it. They were wrong! no apologies either.
The pills given would not have caused harm to the patient, however, if someone else received the pills that should have originally been given, it would have made them very sick.
Just saying, double check!

 

[human]

Seems like Apotex products are being checked out very carefully now. The birth control pill issue was known awhile back but seems quality control wasn't as good as it could have been. IMO

Many people think generic drugs are as good as the name brand but they are less potent depending on the rules/regulations of the country.
I think in North America, its allowed to be as low as 90% efficacy. Now thats fine if your body works well on 90% of the drug but we are all just a little bit different chemically....what if your body needs 95% efficacy? Depending on what its for, i.e. heart/lung/other major organs...it could be life threatening to use less. IMO MOO MHO

I hope the Canadian government reviews it all very carefully. Then, I hope they renew the contracts and decrease the price by the approx 20% premium we pay for these less potent drugs. Maybe more. IMO

My husband has been on a generic for at least thirty years or more. That is all the insurance will pay for. We had excellent insurance, often with two family policies.

The insurance companies have the hold in the US

 

[pamelado2]

A little off topic but I can't stand guys like Barry Sherman. Generic drugs are never as good as the name brands that their recipe is stolen from. My daughter needs a certain allergy medicine and recently the pharmacist substituted a generic equivalent. Turns out that my daughter was allergic to the very medicine that was to be used in an allergy emergency. Bottom line is that now I have to pay extra for the name brand as the insurance company will only cover the generic substitute. So the insurance company gets richer, recipe thief Barry Sherman gets rich, and the rest of us have to live with second rate drugs.

And yet there are people, like a dear friend of mine, who could never hope to afford the name brand and would not be medicated AT ALL without the generic. I have little respect for the pharmacies who want to hold on to their "recipes" long after they've recouped their expenses.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

 

[JDG]

Human, All of the hospitals here in Canada carry generic everything. I have med that MUST be name brand as I am allergic to the filler in the generic and I have to provide it when hospitalized or do without.

We are given the option of paying the difference between generic and name brand. Once a drug has been genericized, it gets harder and harder, often impossible....to get the name brand as Big Pharma can't sell enough of it, so they stop making it.

Pamelado2, Im sorry your friend finds herself in that position, its dreadful and happens far too often. I, however, have little respect for the people who just rip off the patents and flood the market with cheaper but less potent versions of the real thing. IMO MOO
*

I know most people hate Big Pharma, but if BP didn't pay a small fortune in Research and Development to come up new drugs....where would we be?? I think when they've sunk millions and millions into a formula, they're entitled to market it for a reasonable period of time without anyone ripping them off. IMO MOO MHO

One of the long term effects of generics, is that BP has stopped making many kinds of drugs. They cannot afford to do the R&D without a marketplace in which to sell it. IMO MOO MHO

 

[MistyWaters]

Only for information, just to note that BS was no longer involved in day to day operations at Apotex at the time of his death. I don't think we know what were the "specific aspects" although medical marijuana has been speculated upon.

".......Apotex says Sherman, 75, hadn't been involved in day-to-day operations since he stepped down as chief executive officer five years ago.

Jeremy B. Desai has been president and CEO of Apotex Inc. since 2014 and, prior to that, the CEO's job had been transferred from Sherman to Jack Kay, who is now the company's vice-chairman......

......"Barry had developed a robust succession plan which he began implementing five years ago when he stepped down as CEO," Apotex spokesman Jordan Berman said in an email Friday.

"From that point on until his tragic death, Dr. Sherman was no longer involved in day-to-day operations at Apotex rather, focused on some specific aspects of the business."...."
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/apotex-barry-sherman-succession-1.4462150