CANADA Canada - Billionaire Couple Barry & Honey Sherman Murdered at Home, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #23

[hexicon]

I think Expedited's scenario is plausible too, except that I do not believe that WM's plan would have relied on Honey to open the door. It's by no means certain that she would have admitted a stranger to the house. I feel like everything else was carefully planned and WM, and his co-conspirator(s) if applicable, would not work from the assumption that Honey would let him in. Of course, the front door scenario works if Honey knew the WM . . . Also, given the prevalence of doorbell cams I also think WM would have avoided the front door.

Previously (maybe from KD's book?) I had been under the impression that the Shermans were lax about security generally and did not arm their house alarm. Now it sounds like they did in fact arm their alarm and those data points have been used in the investigation.

Based on my mistaken belief that the Shermans didn't really use the alarm, I'd previously assumed that WM got into the back yard and unobtrusively entered through a basement window, perhaps even the one left open by the painters. Now that I know they did use the alarm, wonder if it's possible that the basement windows were not part of the alarm system? When I first got an alarm system I didn't include the basement windows because I was trying to pinch pennies and given the layout I didn't think they were a likely source of ingress. (They're armed now and annoyingly they go off any time I shut the washer or dryer.)

 

[Expedited]

Perhaps (i.e. I'm guessing), the vehicle that stopped by 50 Old Colony on December 14, 2017, at approximately 9 AM, was ADT Security doing a wellness and property check. I say this because ADT could have detected an issue with the lower zone window and they could have detected that the alarm had not been activated late in the evening on December 13, 2017 and then deactivated the following morning.

These anomalies might have prompted a phone call to the homeowner, which of course would have gone unanswered. When this happens with a fully monitored security system, someone from the alarm company is likely dispatched to do a wellness and property check.

 

[ldlager]

I think Expedited's scenario is plausible too, except that I do not believe that WM's plan would have relied on Honey to open the door. It's by no means certain that she would have admitted a stranger to the house. I feel like everything else was carefully planned and WM, and his co-conspirator(s) if applicable, would not work from the assumption that Honey would let him in. Of course, the front door scenario works if Honey knew the WM . . . Also, given the prevalence of doorbell cams I also think WM would have avoided the front door.

Previously (maybe from KD's book?) I had been under the impression that the Shermans were lax about security generally and did not arm their house alarm. Now it sounds like they did in fact arm their alarm and those data points have been used in the investigation.

Based on my mistaken belief that the Shermans didn't really use the alarm, I'd previously assumed that WM got into the back yard and unobtrusively entered through a basement window, perhaps even the one left open by the painters. Now that I know they did use the alarm, wonder if it's possible that the basement windows were not part of the alarm system? When I first got an alarm system I didn't include the basement windows because I was trying to pinch pennies and given the layout I didn't think they were a likely source of ingress. (They're armed now and annoyingly they go off any time I shut the washer or dryer.)

I think an intruder could have also entered down the basement stairs that emerged onto the side of the house iirc

 

[dotr]

By Anne KingstonMarch 14, 2019 re-post

A new, hidden clue in Barry and Honey Shermans' vanishing murder case - Macleans.ca

Anne Kingston: A woman told CTV that she has handed over surveillance video to police that showed a car sitting in the Shermans' driveway a day before their bodies were found

macleans.ca

''In its reporting on the bid to knock down the house, CTV stumbled upon what could be that very thing—a previously unreported, potentially key piece of evidence. In canvassing the neighbourhood for reaction, a reporter interviewed a woman who chose not to appear on camera or make her name public. She revealed that she handed over surveillance video to police that showed a car sitting in the Shermans’ driveway on Dec. 14, a day before the bodies were found and a day after the couple was last reported seen alive. In it, a man was seen “sometimes sitting in his car for up to 15 minutes, then going inside” the house.

The fluke disclosure is a reminder that the Toronto Police Service has more evidence than the public knows—and also that the police don’t share evidence with the public.''

29 minutes inside Barry and Honey Sherman’s home: Who was the visitor?

While the Shermans lay dead in the basement pool room of their Toronto home a lone man went in and out of their house three times, according to an account of security camera footage seized by Toronto police.

www.thestar.com

'While Barry and Honey Sherman lay dead in the basement of their Toronto home, a lone man went in and out of their house three times, according to an account of security camera footage seized by Toronto police.
Between 9:11 a.m. and 10:16 a.m. on Dec. 14, 2017, the man walked from a four-door sedan parked in front of the Sherman house on Old Colony Rd., appeared to enter the house through the front door, then came back outside. He did this three times, for a total of 29 minutes inside the Sherman home, before driving off.'

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Below is a speculative and hypothetical scenario that could have occurred leading up to the death of Honey Sherman (H.S) on December 13, 2017, based on the 'dots' of factual information that have been shared publicly.

FACT: ADT Security System at 50 Old Colony was activated at 4:34 PM on December 13, 2017 .

FACT: ADT Security System logged activity after 4:34 PM. Specifics are redacted by Toronto Police.

FACT: H.S.’s cell phone was found on the floor near the front door and powder room. Her body was found in the lower-level swimming pool room on December 13, 2017. She had minor injuries to her face. A black belt was placed around her neck. Autopsy showed the cause of death was ligature neck compression.

FACT: Ligature neck compression causes death by restricting the return flow of ‘blue blood’ from the head area through the jugular vein and by restricting the flow of ‘freshly oxygenated blood’ to the head area through the carotid artery. To be fatal, the ligature can be placed almost anywhere around the neck and it is not necessary to interfere with the victim’s airway. Essentially, the victim dies, not from choking, but from a massive stroke.

SPECULATIVE SCENARIO A:

It is likely that H.S. set the alarm at 4:34 PM on February 13, 2017, as she headed to Apotex at 150 Signet Drive, for a 5 PM meeting.

It is possible that H.S. deactivated the alarm between 8 and 9 PM on February 13, 2017, upon her return to 50 Old Colony after her 5 PM meeting at Apotex, after a 6:21 PM cell phone call, and after shopping at Bayview Village.

H.S. entered 50 Old Colony at the front side entrance. At this time, she saw the black belt on a bench that she forgot about, that she originally intended to return to Canadian Tire after her Apotex meeting. She decided she would keep the belt with her jacket, so she’d remember to return it on Thursday, December 14, 2024.

She proceeded to walk to the kitchen and as she did so, she heard the front doorbell ring, followed by a gentle knock. She wasn’t expecting anyone but did not perceive a threat, so she turned on the front porch lights and opened the front door.

H.S. felt safe so invited the visitor or visitors inside her home. Either she recognized the visitor or visitors, or they provided a credible explanation as to why they were there.

Shortly after the front doors were closed and locked H.S. was snagged around the neck by the visitor or visitors and instructed not to panic and she would not be harmed. She resisted and was immediately placed in a head lock, while the snare was more securely fastened. The use of the headlock slightly bruised her cheek and lip. The visitor or visitors removed the phone and belt from her grasp and placed the phone on the floor but held onto the belt. H.S. then complied and her hands were bound with zip ties in front of her. She was then forced to walk to the lower-level swimming pool room.

H.S. was killed in the lower-level pool room by the implement used to originally snare her near the front door and powder room. When first applied, the snare was not fully tightened. Upon reaching her final destination at the far end of the pool, she was asked to sit against the wall and the visitor or visitors pulled the snare tight. The murder weapon featured a self-latching mechanism much like a wolf snare and so there was no need to hold it in place. The actual weapon was not likely a hunter’s tool but probably a 3–4-foot heavy duty zip tie, readily purchased at any hardware store.

For clarity—the court records indicate a PIN code was entered at 4:34, we don’t know anything further about that entry in the system. It may not have been entered to activate it (although that’s likely).

The other Canadian Tire belt was last seen on a bench upstairs in the Shermans’ dressing area hours before the murders, not downstairs. There are no reports that she was to return it. Her jacket also wasn’t found downstairs that we know of. It wasn’t left out as KD didn’t see it in the crime scene photos nor did the housekeeper mention seeing it in the court records or to KD.

According to KD, there were faint drag marks in the dust in the pool room floor and what appeared to be the same dust was on the back heels of Honey’s shoes, so it appears she was dragged into the pool room. It’s unlikely she walked or the dust would have been found on the bottom of her shoes, imo.

 

[ldlager]

For clarity—the court records indicate a PIN code was entered at 4:34, we don’t know anything further about that entry in the system. It may not have been entered to activate it (although that’s likely).

The other Canadian Tire belt was last seen on a bench upstairs in the Shermans’ dressing area hours before the murders, not downstairs. There are no reports that she was to return it. Her jacket also wasn’t found downstairs that we know of. It wasn’t left out as KD didn’t see it in the crime scene photos nor did the housekeeper mention seeing it in the court records or to KD.

According to KD, there were faint drag marks in the dust in the pool room floor and what appeared to be the same dust was on the back heels of Honey’s shoes, so it appears she was dragged into the pool room. It’s unlikely she walked or the dust would have been found on the bottom of her shoes, imo.

Thanks. Weren’t her shoes open backed at the heel? If so, I can’t understand how she was dragged across the pool deck without her shoes falling off. This has always bothered me.

 

[dotr]

Thanks. Weren’t her shoes open backed at the heel? If so, I can’t understand how she was dragged across the pool deck without her shoes falling off. This has always bothered me.

Lexi's post on the matter, also wondering about HS' shoes not coming off.

CANADA - Canada - Billionaire Couple Barry & Honey Sherman Murdered @ Home - Toronto #20

Do we know what the flooring is made of? I guess it could be slate since slate is a natural around wet areas as it's not slippery. But it has uneven surfaces. I wondered if it was some kind of etched concrete around the pool. It looks like some lime is leaching out of the stone leaving a...

www.websleuths.com

''Episode 3, around 21:00 mark, KD mentioned they were drag marks through dust and it was on Honey’s shoes. “..there are what appear to be drag marks between the (pool) door and where the Sherman bodies were found. The theory investigators have told me is that Honey was dragged by the upper body into position. There are dusty scuff marks on the back of her shoes..”

The Star saw the Sherman crime-scene and autopsy photos. How could a pathologist and police call it a murder-suicide?

Photos, notes raise new questions about how investigators made their mistaken determination in the Barry and Honey Sherman case.

www.thestar.com

 

[Expedited]

The presence of so-called drag marks and scuffing on the floor near the pool, referred to by KD and others, is seemingly inconclusive due to the absence of footprints from the killer or killers who walked in that exact same floor area. Not to mention the absence of drag marks, scuffing and footprints created by the positioning of Barry Sherman's body.

I suspect that any crime scene photographs which show marks on the pool floor are the result of the forensic team having added dust to the floor in an effort to reveal footprints and fingerprints.

 

[ldlager]

The presence of so-called drag marks and scuffing on the floor near the pool, referred to by KD and others, is seemingly inconclusive due to the absence of footprints from the killer or killers who walked in that exact same floor area. Not to mention the absence of drag marks, scuffing and footprints created by the positioning of Barry Sherman's body.

I suspect that any crime scene photographs which show marks on the pool floor are the result of the forensic team having added dust to the floor in an effort to reveal footprints and fingerprints.

We do not know if TPS actually even did that. The PI team said that homicide missed multiple instances of hair, fingerprint and other evidence in their investigation. We do know that it was many months before TPS even got around to obtaining shoeprint samples of the real estate agents and the prospective buyers, as well as the service provider that went down to the pool to try and ascertain if the Sherman’s were deceased.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

We do not know if TPS actually even did that. The PI team said that homicide missed multiple instances of hair, fingerprint and other evidence in their investigation. We do know that it was many months before TPS even got around to obtaining shoeprint samples of the real estate agents and the prospective buyers, as well as the service provider that went down to the pool to try and ascertain if the Sherman’s were deceased.

Member Bran Muffin here suggested the ‘dust’ may have been efflorescence and I think that’s a great point. It’s more difficult to disturb than normal dust. Dragging something heavy might disturb it while walking through it may not.

 

[wibbleflea]

Do you have thoughts about BS and/or alternative scenarios? The timeline suggests a fairly narrow window here if this was done and dusted before BS’s arrival.

SPECULATIVE SCENARIO A:

 

[Lexiintoronto]

The presence of so-called drag marks and scuffing on the floor near the pool, referred to by KD and others, is seemingly inconclusive due to the absence of footprints from the killer or killers who walked in that exact same floor area. Not to mention the absence of drag marks, scuffing and footprints created by the positioning of Barry Sherman's body.

I suspect that any crime scene photographs which show marks on the pool floor are the result of the forensic team having added dust to the floor in an effort to reveal footprints and fingerprints.

The drag marks are conclusive according to KD who has cited one of his sources as a pathologist connected to the case and others he hasn’t named. He saw the crime scene photos.

The dust was in the poolroom as it hadn’t been cleaned in at least three weeks prior to the murders. It wasn’t made or placed by forensic officers.

There hasn’t been any mention of other footprints or marks on the floor, or absence of any, as that’s likely holdback evidence. There are many details about the forensic evidence the police found that we aren’t aware of.

 

[dotr]

Unrelated to the Sherman murders, but this is an odd threat.. rbbm. imo.

Man with schizophrenia avoids conviction for emailed threats to Waterloo Region Chair Karen Redman

Three Waterloo Region men sentenced in last 17 months for threatening politicians

www.guelphmercury.com

March 6, 2024
''One man threatened to shoot Kitchener-Conestoga MP Tim Louis; the other threatened to hang Prime Minister Justin Trudeau.
While at a church service last March 12, Redman received 14 emails from the man.
“While several of the emails were nonsensical, certain communications contained overt threats to Ms. Redman and her family,” Justice Melanie Sopinka said in Kitchener court.

One referred to a “military terrorist attack” on Redman’s residence.
Another “indicated that he would send a killer to her doorstep like Barry and Honey Sherman, a reference to a well-known homicide case in the media at that time,” Sopinka said.''

 

[Expedited]

Do you have thoughts about BS and/or alternative scenarios? The timeline suggests a fairly narrow window here if this was done and dusted before BS’s arrival.

When I have some time, I'll put some thoughts to words about what might have happened to B.S. and some alternative scenarios. There is almost no limit to the conjecture that can be formed due to the lack of fact-based information.

 

[RHR]

You raise a point I have not theorized about before, what if BS items were staged too, he did not drop them at the door.

I often get a flash of Hansel and Gretel, leaving a trail to the pool room. Not sure if the trail (staging) covered all three floors and all the items about, or just the bodies in the pool room?

I think the killer/killers wanted the police and the public to believe that it was a professional killing. Planned by big pharma or similar. Staging Honey and Barry’s personal stuff, inc her money etc was of no interest to them. My feeling is that all that stuff was left just as it landed. Barry’s on the ground inside the hallway as he walked in from the garage. He was ambushed and dropped everything in shock.
Honey’s purse put down just as a lot of us would when we arrive home. I always put my purse on my island when I first get home.
I also think the staging of their bodies was planned but not exactly how. That IMO was decided once they were dead.
My reasoning for this is, the belt on Barry came from his waist. The belt on Honey we assume came from their bedroom. The second belt H purchased at Canadian Tire.
Do we know that for sure ? The police would know that. The crime scene photos would show a belt in the bedroom or not. They have not said anything.Regardless the belt came from upstairs or was brought in by the killers. They could have been wearing it for all we know. How could the staging of them being tied to the pool rail been pre planned if they had to rely on using Barry’s belt. And, then find another for Honey.
Would you not think they would have arrived with all the tools they needed for the plan?
So although it was supposed, IMO to look like a professional well planned murder how do we explain the adlib part of the murder. I believe there were two people involved. It just seems too much for one person to do alone. Never mind the belts holding them onto the rail have two different type of
knots.
I guess one killer could have been trying to confuse the police and lead them to believe it was two people…hmmmm.
Did the police even notice the difference in the knots for the first six weeks ?

 

[fadedglitter]

I know you’re mostly speculating but you stated one thing as fact that caught my eye. The belts had two different knots? I don’t recall reading that — can you provide more detail?

 

[FromGermany1]

I think the killer/killers wanted the police and the public to believe that it was a professional killing. Planned by big pharma or similar. Staging Honey and Barry’s personal stuff, inc her money etc was of no interest to them. My feeling is that all that stuff was left just as it landed. Barry’s on the ground inside the hallway as he walked in from the garage. He was ambushed and dropped everything in shock.
Honey’s purse put down just as a lot of us would when we arrive home. I always put my purse on my island when I first get home.
I also think the staging of their bodies was planned but not exactly how. That IMO was decided once they were dead.
My reasoning for this is, the belt on Barry came from his waist. The belt on Honey we assume came from their bedroom. The second belt H purchased at Canadian Tire.
Do we know that for sure ? The police would know that. The crime scene photos would show a belt in the bedroom or not. They have not said anything.Regardless the belt came from upstairs or was brought in by the killers. They could have been wearing it for all we know. How could the staging of them being tied to the pool rail been pre planned if they had to rely on using Barry’s belt. And, then find another for Honey.
Would you not think they would have arrived with all the tools they needed for the plan?
So although it was supposed, IMO to look like a professional well planned murder how do we explain the adlib part of the murder. I believe there were two people involved. It just seems too much for one person to do alone. Never mind the belts holding them onto the rail have two different type of
knots.
I guess one killer could have been trying to confuse the police and lead them to believe it was two people…hmmmm.
Did the police even notice the difference in the knots for the first six weeks ?

I didn't know about two different knots, but can it be, they were different because of a different length? Afaik, Honey bought 1 belt in 2 different sizes.

 

[RHR]

I know you’re mostly speculating but you stated one thing as fact that caught my eye. The belts had two different knots? I don’t recall reading that — can you provide more detail?

I have not read anything about it also but in KD's drawing of the crime scene you can see the knots are different. Sorry i don't have access to that right now.

I know you’re mostly speculating but you stated one thing as fact that caught my eye. The belts had two different knots? I don’t recall reading that — can you provide more detail?

I know you’re mostly speculating but you stated one thing as fact that caught my eye. The belts had two different knots? I don’t recall reading that — can you provide more detail?

 

[Lexiintoronto]

I have not read anything about it also but in KD's drawing of the crime scene you can see the knots are different. Sorry i don't have access to that right now.




View attachment 488921

I see what you mean, but I believe they were tied the same way. Your point helped me understand how the knots were tied. They’d have to be slip knots, imo.

Caution, sensitive:

Here’s a close up of the Star graphic:


This is what I believe the other sides of the knots look like:



Still image from: Easy Ways to Tie a Rope on a Pole: 8 Steps (with Pictures)

We can’t see the ends of the belts in the Star’s illustration, but the railing might be blocking them or the Star left out those details, imo.

There would have to be weight to keep a belt knot like that in place, imo. I’d think they’d be too stiff and slippery compared to a rope. That’s why I’ve never understood of all things in the home to use as a ligature the killer or killers chose one of the most difficult items to hang them.

 

[newclues]

Below is a speculative and hypothetical scenario that could have occurred leading up to the death of Honey Sherman (H.S) on December 13, 2017, based on the 'dots' of factual information that have been shared publicly.

FACT: ADT Security System at 50 Old Colony was activated at 4:34 PM on December 13, 2017 .

FACT: ADT Security System logged activity after 4:34 PM. Specifics are redacted by Toronto Police.

FACT: H.S.’s cell phone was found on the floor near the front door and powder room. Her body was found in the lower-level swimming pool room on December 13, 2017. She had minor injuries to her face. A black belt was placed around her neck. Autopsy showed the cause of death was ligature neck compression.

FACT: Ligature neck compression causes death by restricting the return flow of ‘blue blood’ from the head area through the jugular vein and by restricting the flow of ‘freshly oxygenated blood’ to the head area through the carotid artery. To be fatal, the ligature can be placed almost anywhere around the neck and it is not necessary to interfere with the victim’s airway. Essentially, the victim dies, not from choking, but from a massive stroke.

SPECULATIVE SCENARIO A:

It is likely that H.S. set the alarm at 4:34 PM on February 13, 2017, as she headed to Apotex at 150 Signet Drive, for a 5 PM meeting.

It is possible that H.S. deactivated the alarm between 8 and 9 PM on December 13, 2017, upon her return to 50 Old Colony after her 5 PM meeting at Apotex, after a 6:21 PM cell phone call, and after shopping at Bayview Village.

H.S. entered 50 Old Colony at the front side entrance. At this time, she saw the black belt on a bench that she forgot about, that she originally intended to return to Canadian Tire after her Apotex meeting. She decided she would keep the belt with her jacket, so she’d remember to return it on Thursday, December 14, 2024.

She proceeded to walk to the kitchen and as she did so, she heard the front doorbell ring, followed by a gentle knock. She wasn’t expecting anyone but did not perceive a threat, so she turned on the front porch lights and opened the front door.

H.S. felt safe so invited the visitor or visitors inside her home. Either she recognized the visitor or visitors, or they provided a credible explanation as to why they were there.

Shortly after the front doors were closed and locked H.S. was snagged around the neck by the visitor or visitors and instructed not to panic and she would not be harmed. She resisted and was immediately placed in a head lock, while the snare was more securely fastened. The use of the headlock slightly bruised her cheek and lip. The visitor or visitors removed the phone and belt from her grasp and placed the phone on the floor but held onto the belt. H.S. then complied and her hands were bound with zip ties in front of her. She was then forced to walk to the lower-level swimming pool room.

H.S. was killed in the lower-level pool room by the implement used to originally snare her near the front door and powder room. When first applied, the snare was not fully tightened. Upon reaching her final destination at the far end of the pool, she was asked to sit against the wall and the visitor or visitors pulled the snare tight. The murder weapon featured a self-latching mechanism much like a wolf snare and so there was no need to hold it in place. The actual weapon was not likely a hunter’s tool but probably a 3–4-foot heavy duty zip tie, readily purchased at any hardware store.

Very interesting sequence of probable events. Since BS was positioned further back in the pool railing area, somehow his body must have been placed and hung there first before HS's body was. Otherwise, BS's body would have had to have been somehow difficultly moved over HS's body in such a narrow spot. Also, given that it was believed that HS was killed first, it would appear that the bodies may have been moved there after BS was also killed with BS's body being brought there and placed there first.