CANADA - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #7

[otto]

Part of the confusion about these issues arises from assertions by at least one person early on, extrapolating from US experience, that these murders were just a typical, ordinary robbery/murder and that it is easy to purchase a stolen gun anywhere in Canada.

On the upside, we are now beyond that kind of thinking to something more in accordance with reality.

Glad the post helped.

I'm pretty sure that robbery was behind the murders. ID and presumably wallets were stolen at the first two murders, and I think the Rav4 was stolen at the third murder. ID was taken from all victims to delay discovery of the victims and provide suspects with more time to distance themselves.

It would not surprise me if they had a street gun or stolen gun.

 

[jmarshmarsh]

Hear, hear! @ Gitana1

Please also take note that RCMP mobilized on York Landing within 20 minutes or less of receiving call from the Bear Clan Patrol about the sighting.

While it's not been confirmed that RCMP fired the shots heard, this form of "signal" may have been discussed prior to the situation.

And some have also said shots fired last night may have been at bear. This is mating season for bears and this danger can't be underestimated.

MOO

There was a MSM article posted earlier that said their radios weren't working and the rcmp used gun shots as a signal to where they were for other officers. I will try and find the link.

 

[PaulR]

Good morning all
What is the latest? I thought the sighting was bogus last night. No one seemed to agree with me. But, the whole dump thing didn’t make sense. Has there been any other sightings of suspects?

However, I am often wrong...

No other sighting.

 

[10ofRods]

Another cultural difference related to guns in this case, is that most Canadians expect the police to bring the suspects into custody without killing them. In spite of the father's comment about going out in a blaze of glory, shooting to kill and "Suicide by Cop" tend to be more likely American expectations.

More work is expected from the RCMP. They can't just go in and blast the fugitives away. They have to go in with a negotiation team and take the time needed to safely bring the suspects in.

I totally agree. And I was just regaling my poor DH about how I like the Canadian system so much better. Every effort should be made to bring perps to justice without a hail of bullets. Canada has the much better policies and I think those policies will prevail in this situation (I still don't think that these two have lots of ammo or even any real guns).

Of course I'd love to know if K&B are aware that suicide by cop is not as easy in Canada and also, whether the RCMP is, in this case, going to attempt to negotiate if they make sudden moves or bring out their pellet gun or pretend to have guns aimed at police. I'd hate to see this case bring in a new precedent for Canada.

Not that we don't have negotiation teams. I've actually observed a couple in action and they are quite common here, too. It's the non-manhunt events that usually result in suicide by cop here (person comes out of car with a supposed gun, gets annihilated by pointing at cops on the freeway, etc). In Oregon (another place where they try to avoid killing suspects), some suicidal people negotiate for hours and then come out of their hiding spot with their gun raised and pointed at a cop (whether loaded or not). That's been a common way of doing it. Suicidal suspects sometimes take a while to get to that "blaze of glory" point. Typically, though, the suspect is guilty of some pretty nefarious crimes in that situation and is dreading the impact on themselves and family. They're often older than this pair.

I think there's a good chance this pair will surrender. Somehow I don't think they are suicidal. When push comes to shove, when and if they are surrounded, they will surrender.

 

[MistyWaters]

Thought: what if the suspects aren't in this city, and this manhunt/press coverage/etc. is an attempt to get them to move and expose themselves because they think police are too busy looking elsewhere?

If I were a fugitive holed down somewhere, and heard there was a big search effort hundreds of miles away, I might think that this is the time to make a break for it.

York Landing is a First Nations community of just over 400 people and reportedly Under lockdown. I think the sighting cannot have been an intentional ruse because the credibility of any future sightings would also be questioned as well. I have never heard of police intentionally misinforming people where personal safety is involved.

 

[rickcross]

Thought: what if the suspects aren't in this city, and this manhunt/press coverage/etc. is an attempt to get them to move and expose themselves because they think police are too busy looking elsewhere?

If I were a fugitive holed down somewhere, and heard there was a big search effort hundreds of miles away, I might think that this is the time to make a break for it.

I don't think that is likely. They were spotted there, they are video there, and they burned the RAV4 there. No vehicles appear to be missing in the area so they have absolutely no way out. If they are moving, it will be very slowly, but they will eventually be caught or they will simply die in the woods. There only option is to use violence to commandeer a vehicle out of there, but at this point I'm sure there are roadblocks checking every car passing through.

 

[Deleted member 248860]

The interesting fact that came out of the news conference is that the rail line is 25km/15m from York Landing. Without a topo map, a compass and good map reading skills, there has to be a real question about whether they walked into York Landing.

The experienced, properly outfitted German canoeists, discussed in earlier posts, took 11 days to walk 115km/70m. Here, that works out to two days from the rail line.

There are trails, but apparently you have to know what you’re doing to use them.

The other possibilities are the two hour ferry and walking/boating up the Nelson River. Travel by boat would be against the current.

 

[ldlager]

You work in what space?

In a northern community with an unexpected failure of communication services on a manhunt for two dangerous suspects?

Geesh, I think we need to give the RCMP officers a break here. If one or more officers fired their guns in the air to alert other officers of their presence then who are we to criticize and dictate what their protocol should be, sitting thousands of miles away safe in our homes.

Misty, my issue isn't with the alleged discharging of firearms. It's that the RCMP showed up to conduct a life threatening manhunt with radios that evidently don't work.

 

[10ofRods]

The fact that they were sighted in the dump tells me they are hungry, or at the very least they are looking for items that they could make use of in the woods. either way, they didn't appear to be able to fill their stomachs at the dump, and its now a day later. You are correct in that this hunger will eventually force them to come out of hiding and put themselves in public sight. That said, they still have a gun and I hope there desperation doesn't get to the point where they are forced to use it.

They have a pellet gun. At least, as far as we know, that's what they have.

 

[Estrojane]

<modsnip> Some survivalist sites swear that you can hide from police by finding a depression in the ground and putting a specific kind of plastic sheeting over it. They say that as long as you don't touch the sheeting, heat-seeking devices can't find you. See the rabbit holes this search has led us down!

New non-profane reference to the duo: jackrabbits. Hiding in holes in the ground.

Yes, it's one of the ways you can avoid a heat-seeking detector. They would be aware of that if their hobby was playing war games in the woods for over 2 years.

 

[sleuth3000]

CBC has been exploring the hydro line and train track as well. If they were in the area, they could continue past York Landing along the same trails or routes.

View attachment 195622

lol damn it. Already a map exists! I looked for one and coulnt find so spent 30 making mine lol

 

[gitana1]

That’s the other point. Even if Mr. Bigetti’s statement is accurate, so what? As a gun owner, I don’t see anything wrong with this and I’d have no hesitation doing it if I needed to when out moose hunting in the fall.

Sometimes I get the impression that some people feel a need to find something, anything, no matter how trivial, to criticize the RCMP about.

Bingo.

They're out there in the bush in hazardous terrain hunting dangerous fugitives. And people on their couches have the audacity to criticize and try to explain how they're doing it all wrong.

Astounding to me.

 

[Gina20]

This happens at virtually every press conference.

This is why pros repeat the question and then answer it. At corporate PCs, mikes are set up for the press. Future job opportunities for audio engineering grads exist with the RCMP. They just have to route them out of situations like this.

 

[KR72]

Misty, my issue isn't with the alleged discharging of firearms. It's that the RCMP showed up to conduct a life threatening manhunt with radios that evidently don't work.

If the locator shots I think the radios likely worked, but given the distance and remoteness, there could have been an issue with towers and breaks in transmitting signals. I don't think it's a case of showing up with faulty radios.

 

[ldlager]

I don't think that is likely. They were spotted there, they are video there, and they burned the RAV4 there. No vehicles appear to be missing in the area so they have absolutely no way out. If they are moving, it will be very slowly, but they will eventually be caught or they will simply die in the woods. There only option is to use violence to commandeer a vehicle out of there, but at this point I'm sure there are roadblocks checking every car passing through.

I would be interested to know from reporters arriving in Split Lake if they saw any police roadblocks on the drive to Split Lake.

 

[Herat]

It's going to come down to an average citizen spotting them going through a dumpster somewhere--probably behind a grocery store.
And sounding the alarm in time.
I just don't want anymore innocents hurt.

York Landing has only 400 residents, and is an isolated First Nation territory. It looks to have one store: Northern Shore which looks like a general store. I'll bet RCMP is watching that store and it's dumpster very closely.

 

[rickcross]

The interesting fact that came out of the news conference is that the rail line is 25km/15m from York Landing. Without a topo map, a compass and good map reading skills, there has to be a real question about whether they walked into York Landing.

The experienced, properly outfitted German canoeists, discussed in earlier posts, took 11 days to walk 115km/70m. Here, that works out to two days from the rail line.

There are trails, but apparently you have to know what you’re doing to use them.

The other possibilities are the two hour ferry and walking/boating up the Nelson River. Travel by boat would be against the current.

I agree 100%. These guys are following some sort of path, not just walking aimlessly through the bush. I'd guess they'd be moving mostly at night, sleeping during the hot days.

 

[PaulR]

Misty, my issue isn't with the alleged discharging of firearms. It's that the RCMP showed up to conduct a life threatening manhunt with radios that evidently don't work.

Plausible depending on atmospheric conditions, radio frequency, whether they depended on a repeater, etc.

My knowledge comes from a General amateur radio ("ham") license.

 

[10ofRods]

So...now I'm assuming that this pair probably didn't bring backpacker meals, and a stove. They're finding water pretty readily. If they're hungry enough to show up at a dump in broad daylight, I don't think they planned their rations properly. They must not even be very good at finding cabins and shacks with basic rations in them.

Perhaps that's their next plan (to try and find cabins). If so, they run a very real risk of just getting lost and dying out there.

 

[dotr]

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