GUILTY Canada - Sammy Yatim, 18, fatally shot by Toronto LE, 27 July 2013

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I'm of two minds on this one. Firstly, I believe LE in the U.S. are too violent, too quick to kill. It seems like this may also be happening in Canada. Surely, not all of the people shot to death by LE are a "danger" to LE. BUT,

on the other hand, if some guy is on a crowded street car brandishing a "4" inch knife in one hand and his penis in the other, there's definitely wrong. Are ya with me so far? Now, maybe, maybe he was no threat to them, I don't know. I do know the people who ran off the street car thought he was a very real threat.

If you're still with me, suppose they had spent hours talking him down - from whatever HI he was on, drugs, mental illness, who knows. What happens the NEXT time he pulls something like this in public? Suppose he stabs someone the next time? What then? Well, then the public will point to the first instance and ask why nothing was done. Suppose he kills someone? They will blame LE because he was allowed to be in public again = oh, yeah, most likely even after getting "help", which to me is one of the biggest, highest paid job/scams every pulled on the public.

In my opinion, it was shot him now, or shot him after he killed an innocent person.

This is just my opinion, and I do not have all the facts. However, from the ones I have read, I'm on the side of LE, for once.
 
Trident said:
I'm of two minds on this one. Firstly, I believe LE in the U.S. are too violent, too quick to kill. It seems like this may also be happening in Canada. Surely, not all of the people shot to death by LE are a "danger" to LE. BUT,

on the other hand, if some guy is on a crowded street car brandishing a "4" inch knife in one hand and his penis in the other, there's definitely wrong. Are ya with me so far? Now, maybe, maybe he was no threat to them, I don't know. I do know the people who ran off the street car thought he was a very real threat.

If you're still with me, suppose they had spent hours talking him down - from whatever HI he was on, drugs, mental illness, who knows. What happens the NEXT time he pulls something like this in public? Suppose he stabs someone the next time? What then? Well, then the public will point to the first instance and ask why nothing was done. Suppose he kills someone? They will blame LE because he was allowed to be in public again = oh, yeah, most likely even after getting "help", which to me is one of the biggest, highest paid job/scams every pulled on the public.

In my opinion, it was shot him now, or shot him after he killed an innocent person.

This is just my opinion, and I do not have all the facts. However, from the ones I have read, I'm on the side of LE, for once.
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I'm of two minds on this one. Firstly, I believe LE in the U.S. are too violent, too quick to kill. It seems like this may also be happening in Canada. Surely, not all of the people shot to death by LE are a "danger" to LE. BUT,

on the other hand, if some guy is on a crowded street car brandishing a "4" inch knife in one hand and his penis in the other, there's definitely wrong. Are ya with me so far? Now, maybe, maybe he was no threat to them, I don't know. I do know the people who ran off the street car thought he was a very real threat.
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Yatin was definitely a threat to those on the bus, at that time. He was not when he was shot.


If you're still with me, suppose they had spent hours talking him down - from whatever HI he was on, drugs, mental illness, who knows. What happens the NEXT time he pulls something like this in public? Suppose he stabs someone the next time? What then? Well, then the public will point to the first instance and ask why nothing was done. Suppose he kills someone? They will blame LE because he was allowed to be in public again = oh, yeah, most likely even after getting "help", which to me is one of the biggest, highest paid job/scams every pulled on the public.

In my opinion, it was shot him now, or shot him after he killed an innocent person.

This is just my opinion, and I do not have all the facts. However, from the ones I have read, I'm on the side of LE, for once.
Click to expand...

I could not disagree more with this. It seems to me, you are suggesting police behavior be driven by conjecture. I mean, really? We don't know what this kid could do in the future, so the only option is to kill him now or kill him later? I'd rather put my faith in the Court system, warts and all, instead of handing over the power to be judge, jury and executioner to the cops.
 
A.D.A McCoy said:
Yatin was definitely a threat to those on the bus, at that time. He was not when he was shot.




I could not disagree more with this. It seems to me, you are suggesting police behavior be driven by conjecture. I mean, really? We don't know what this kid could do in the future, so the only option is to kill him now or kill him later? I'd rather put my faith in the Court system, warts and all, instead of handing over the power to be judge, jury and executioner to the cops.
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In total agreement with you ADA McCoy. (JMO and willing to accept others.)
I have no doubt that he was a risk to the people on the streetcar. But they weren't there anymore. Who was he a risk to when he was all alone on the streetcar? And even if he was threatening LE and they felt threatened (hey, they have a tough job!), the thing I have trouble with is how could he have been a threat, while confined, after having been shot several times? Why the next six shots?? Why the taser?

Schizophrenia hits young people in their late teens and early twenties. Surely LE knows that. Surely LE is sensitive to that. What if that was my kid? Unfortunately for Sammy Yatim's parents, it was their kid.

(I am very willing to hear new evidence. We have to be careful not to judge what we see in only one context and only through the media. I know that I don't have full knowledge so please take my comments above with a grain of salt.)
 
LadyL said:
[bbm]

huh? 'it' being someone threatening the lives of people on a streetcar by waving a knife around, screaming obscenities at them while holding his genitals?

that's something that just 'happens'?

I'm confused because incidents like that are not part of my average day

none of us knows that he was not going to harm anyone - none of us knows whether he had a gun or other weapons on that streetcar or on his person

and what do you mean one of your boys in Toronto needed help? did you know Sammy personally?
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Hello,

Firstly, yes, people freak out, some people with mental illness succumb to these tragedies and need a lot of support and help, not to be killed.

Secondly, I live in Toronto, so yes... One of our boys needed help. Not to be killed.

SK
 
Trident said:
I'm of two minds on this one. Firstly, I believe LE in the U.S. are too violent, too quick to kill. It seems like this may also be happening in Canada. Surely, not all of the people shot to death by LE are a "danger" to LE. BUT,

on the other hand, if some guy is on a crowded street car brandishing a "4" inch knife in one hand and his penis in the other, there's definitely wrong. Are ya with me so far? Now, maybe, maybe he was no threat to them, I don't know. I do know the people who ran off the street car thought he was a very real threat.

If you're still with me, suppose they had spent hours talking him down - from whatever HI he was on, drugs, mental illness, who knows. What happens the NEXT time he pulls something like this in public? Suppose he stabs someone the next time? What then? Well, then the public will point to the first instance and ask why nothing was done. Suppose he kills someone? They will blame LE because he was allowed to be in public again = oh, yeah, most likely even after getting "help", which to me is one of the biggest, highest paid job/scams every pulled on the public.

In my opinion, it was shot him now, or shot him after he killed an innocent person.

This is just my opinion, and I do not have all the facts. However, from the ones I have read, I'm on the side of LE, for once.
Click to expand...


This why this young boy need help. So there won't be a next time. I have seen some confused, angry young men who deep down are not mean and in no way want to hurt anyone. These people need help. If this were my son, I have no words really. I do know we would be livid, albeit trying to understand LE's position in this case. Due to the fact he was alone on the streetcar, they could have tried to subdue him and take him to hospital for evaluation. This is not The United States....
 
I had a retired police detective over for dinner last night and asked his opinion on the case. He said that the young man was "contained" and not a threat to anyone but himself. In case like that, the police just wait it out until the young man could be safely taken into custody.

He says it's possible that there may be more information that hasn't been disclosed that could be brought forward to defend the cop. But if not, the murder charge is justified. There was no reason for anyone to be shooting through the front window of the bus. Especially damning is the last gunshot ... one last shot to make sure he was dead. That, the police detective said, suggests a murder.

JMO
 
In my opinion, I don't believe there was a legitimate reason for the cop to fear for his life. Yatin was further away from the door when he was killed. He wasn't rushing out the door, so I don't see a life threating action. In fact, just before the shots, another officer approximately the same distance away as the shooter, has his or her hands on their hips. In addition to that, there was plenty of backup. He could have shot him in the leg. I just don't see the justification for firing nine rounds in this situation. JMO.
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Police are trained NOT to aim for anything other than large body mass - trunk - not limbs. Limbs are moving and too easily missed leaving stray bullets to strike goodnessknowswho. If the officer felt that Yatim was moving toward him (intending to leave the containment of the streetcar) then he absolutely should aim for the trunk, not the legs.

I think it is very easy for people to judge this situation now, from their armchairs, but it would have been very different for the officers living it, in the dark, in the noise, in the heat of the moment, trying to make split second decisions to protect the citizens, to contain the threat, and to ensure that they went home safely to their own family at the end of shift. What we can see (or think we can see) to be true now, is not necessarily how it appeared to those living it at the time.

Having seen the videos I still don't think the officers is acting maliciously when he fires those first shots, I don't think it is unrealistic to think he felt that Yatim was an immediate threat, from his vantage point, that night.
 
airplanelamp said:
He was told to drop the knife and did not. He was told to stop moving forward (toward the door) and then moved forward. A person with a knife can move 21 feet forward in less than 2 sec and a knife will puncture a bullet proof vest easily. I don't think the officer was wrong to fear for his life and I don't think he was wrong to fire the first batch of shots.
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it is the last 6 bullets that will be hard to explain by the shooter
 
airplanelamp said:
Police are trained NOT to aim for anything other than large body mass - trunk - not limbs. Limbs are moving and too easily missed leaving stray bullets to strike goodnessknowswho. If the officer felt that Yatim was moving toward him (intending to leave the containment of the streetcar) then he absolutely should aim for the trunk, not the legs.

I think it is very easy for people to judge this situation now, from their armchairs, but it would have been very different for the officers living it, in the dark, in the noise, in the heat of the moment, trying to make split second decisions to protect the citizens, to contain the threat, and to ensure that they went home safely to their own family at the end of shift. What we can see (or think we can see) to be true now, is not necessarily how it appeared to those living it at the time.

Having seen the videos I still don't think the officers is acting maliciously when he fires those first shots, I don't think it is unrealistic to think he felt that Yatim was an immediate threat, from his vantage point, that night.
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Yes, I understand how they are trained. But not every situation warrants the same response. My comment about shooting him in the leg, was in the context of the video. If that's arm chairing, so be it. With any luck, twelve citizens in a courtroom will have the same opportunity.

in the dark, in the noise, in the heat of the moment, trying to make split second decisions to protect the citizens, to contain the threat, and to ensure that they went home safely to their own family at the end of shift.
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I'm sure the defense will be using similar rhetoric. Fortunately, there is more than just the cop's version of events, this time. The video speaks for itself, imo.
 
Disciplinary charges under Police Act to be laid on detective who allegedly used another officer's account to call Andre Marin a terrorist.

On 8/8/13, Ontario Ombudsman André Marin was to announce the scope of the upcoming investigation into Police action the night Yatim was killed. One cop, a supervising detective, no less, decided to create a Twitter account which linked back to a fellow officer's account and hurl insults at Marin. Among the tweets were such gems as
@Ont_Ombudsman is a carded member of al-Qaeda

@Ont_Ombudsman "YOU SIR ARE A COMPLETE DOUCHE BAG!”

“Why don’t you stick your big French nose up your *advertiser censored** instead of business where it doesn’t belong,”

link to the screenshots
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Naturally, the officer who was wronged is considering legal action against the Ombudsman, because other officers are never at fault.
 
A.D.A McCoy said:
Yes, I understand how they are trained. But not every situation warrants the same response. My comment about shooting him in the leg, was in the context of the video. If that's arm chairing, so be it. With any luck, twelve citizens in a courtroom will have the same opportunity.
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This case is the first time I have ever had any desire to be on a jury.
 
Nine shots and a taser is murder in my opinion.

When did it become not necessary to bring in a negotiator to try and talk this young boy into giving himself up.

I had dealings with a cop who noticed I had no tags on my car(someone had peeled them off somehow) He was no more than 27 and he treated me like I was the biggest felon to hit the streets. He even tried to get my car towed to impound. I asked for his supervisor and the cop had to back off. I did have tags, just not on the car and he was going beyond the call of duty to tow my car. It is a different breed of cop out there, not all of them but alot of the younger crowd seem to be a tad over the top when they are in the position of power. They are supposed to be peace officers, they are supposed to maintain the peace in a calm efficient manner.
 
New article on this case -

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/06/2...shooting-just-wants-a-chance-to-tell-his-side

I don't get lawyer Brauti - jmo. Have read articles before with his name and he usually comes across as '*advertiser censored* of the walk' so to speak. This time I'm finding he's whining to the public long before a trial. Imo, his client doesn't have much of a prayer to walk in this shooting, but Brauti should take the advice he and his colleagues normally dish out - stfu.

But as it turns out, his lawyer Peter Brauti says there was never a chance that Forcillo might be discharged at the prelim ... There was always agreement that Forcillo intentionally fired his weapon — the question is whether he was justified.

“I conceded committal (on second-degree murder) at the beginning of the case,” Brauti explains in his downtown office... Going to trial was a foregone conclusion.”

So why not go straight to trial Brauti? You might have found a date this fall or so by not wasting time on the prelim that you say was a foregone conclusion. Whining (imo) that there is video from a different angle on the shooting and then not showing the public gives me the impression all is not well.

Also, imo, this is something Brauti should not have said -

And rather than gun happy, sources quoted in reports following the shooting said Forcillo was actually the officer who called for a Taser to deal with the tense situation. But the sergeant authorized to use the stun gun — front line constables are not — didn’t arrive until after shots were fired.

So? The sergeant was? Busy? On another call? No one to back the sergeant up if he was preoccupied? No one was on duty for this type of call? Why did JF fire nine shots before the sergeant showed up? The victim (and he is a victim according to the justice system) had taken a streetcar hostage - not people, a friggin streetcar.
You bring this up Brauti and now you're going to make me wait a year now for the answers? What's the point?

All jmo.
 
I know the two events aren't related but the day before the trial the election will be over. Finally.
 
I know these two aren't related also but...I sense Sammy's spirit was flying high in the Skydome today!

si-220-pic.jpg


What a freaking ballgame!!! :canada:

:candle: for Sammy!
 
tarabull said:
I know these two aren't related also but...I sense Sammy's spirit was flying high in the Skydome today!

si-220-pic.jpg


What a freaking ballgame!!! :canada:

:candle: for Sammy!
Click to expand...

Thank you for that.

What a game! The CN Tower looks good in blue. :)
 
James Forcillo tells court pointing firearm at Sammy Yatim was 'a form of de-escalation'

A Toronto police officer told a packed courtroom Friday that he was trying to de-escalate the situation when he pulled out his gun moments before fatally shooting Sammy Yatim on a Toronto streetcar.
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"Holding a firearm, that's a form of de-escalation," Forcillo said.

The officer added that for de-escalation techniques to work, "the person on the other side has to be receptive."
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"Are you suggesting that firing nine bullets at somebody is not likely to kill him?" Rupic asked.

"I fired the bullets at him because I thought he was a threat to my life," Forcillo said.

"I'm asking if you knew you were likely to kill Sammy Yatim," Rupic asked.

"I am not considering whether these bullets are going to kill him. I'm considering whether or not they're going to stop him."​
Click to expand...

BBM
I don't know how anyone who has seen the video believes fear had anything to do with Forcillo's actions.

Firearms are not mentioned on this list:
Preventing violent encounters
De-escalation training for police
 
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