Casey and Family Psych Profile #11

[Tulessa]

Didn't know where to put this so I started a thread.

I was going to respond to Logical, but the thread was closed because we were off topic. In order to preserve this topic and Amy H., I started this.

Logical,

I understand and do agree that the ultimate responsibility lies with KC and so does the law believe that - hence she is the one on trial.

But it is hard to overlook things that motivate people and I mean Cindy's defense of her daughter. It is clear to me and I believe it will be clear to a jury that KC committed the crime; however, we are looking at a sociopath and her mother labeled her as such.

If it were me in Cindy's shoes, I think it would be very hard for me to overlook the fact that KC was allowed to basically run free for years and years - stealing and lyng, etc.

We are all supposed to look out for the "children". All adults are. No one was looking out for Caylee - she was left with a sociopath, who I believe, ended up killing her.

I believe that Cindy denies her daughter's part in this crime because she knows she (Cindy) was not watching out for Caylee as she should have been and ultimately, the child was killed. The courts are not going to implicate Cindy in this death, but anyone who knows the case and speaks of it will, imo, find that Cindy was derelict as a grandparent who wanted the child to begin with and wanted her living with her and she did so, but she was derelict towards the end and Caylee paid with her life unfortunately.

Absolutely she does. As the old say goes, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. She has lied & covered up for Casey so much that it became a daily routine IMO.

 

[Solace]

Absolutely she does. As the old say goes, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. She has lied & covered up for Casey so much that it became a daily routine IMO.

And the amount of money she was taking from Cindy's accounts on a daily basis (check writing) is just incredible and it shows that she was not working and was at Target most of the time, practically every other day (what a boring human being) - this is important because Cindy does not know where her grandchild is (she is obviously NOT with a Nanny). This is derelict because it is not a one time shot, it is happening on a daily basis.

And not only this. Cindy is backing her daughter with the Nannie excuse. Cindy says she heard of Zannie the Nannie at least a year prior (I believe). Yet, she never called her to make sure not even when she found the post it with Zannie's number (which is bogus, I have no doubt) the night of July 15th.

All of this does not make Cindy guilty of the murder, but it does make her derelict as far as Caylee's goes.

Does anyone really believe that Cindy would not have called the number she had on the post it as soon as she got home with KC on July 15th. No one believes her story that she was NOT FOCUSED on that, she was focused on getting Caylee. So if you are focused on getting Caylee and you have a number for the person who is believed to have her, would you not call it.

 

[shellsbells]

And it is an important question, because if and when KC is found guilty, it is going to be an argument the defense will use, imo.

I wonder how effective that argument would even be, though, because it's not as if KC was a minor, or even just 18, she was fully an adult in the eyes of the law, it's not as if she was forced to do CA's bidding or anything.

I go back and forth on thinking that CA feels blame at all, sometimes I think she probably tortures herself with would'ves and could'ves, then other times I think perhaps she's disassociated so much that she's just... checked out of reality and doesn't feel any responsibility at all. Who knows other than her, I guess.

I guess she can't be culpable for any sort of child neglect. Legally, KC was poor Caylee's legal guardian, and CA knowing everything she knew, chose to turn a blind eye to the stealing and the not working and even make apologies for it and did not seek out custody herself. Personally, I do think she should be investigated for obstruction. I cannot imagine what her day-to-day life is like, especially if she still is not working and has so much time to just simmer.

 

[Scamperoo]

I think it is probably a little different when you are living the situation rather than commenting after the fact. From the outside looking in Cindy favored Casey that's for sure, so did George, in fact she was the darling of the family and got away with, well, murder.
I don't think in her wildest dreams did the Anthony's think of the consequences of indulging Casey's monstrous ego, she was small, cute and manipulative but I don't think the real Casey Anthony was revealed until after Caylee was born.
I don't like the way Cindy has reacted, she is a spiteful, selfish, self righteous and vengeful human being who has gone to extreme lengths to save her psychopathic daughter.
In this case the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, the traits of the mother are amplified in the daughter to an extreme degree.
To be fair when all is said and done and Cindy is alone without her favored child and without the granddaughter she loved, Cindy will be utterly devastated so I guess on some level this fight is all she has left...I think Cindy will more than be paid back for her lack of parenting skills....JMO

 

[Solace]

I think it is probably a little different when you are living the situation rather than commenting after the fact. From the outside looking in Cindy favored Casey that's for sure, so did George, in fact she was the darling of the family and got away with, well, murder.
I don't think in her wildest dreams did the Anthony's think of the consequences of indulging Casey's monstrous ego, she was small, cute and manipulative but I don't think the real Casey Anthony was revealed until after Caylee was born.
I don't like the way Cindy has reacted, she is a spiteful, selfish, self righteous and vengeful human being who has gone to extreme lengths to save her psychopathic daughter.
In this case the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, the traits of the mother are amplified in the daughter to an extreme degree.
To be fair when all is said and done and Cindy is alone without her favored child and without the granddaughter she loved, Cindy will be utterly devastated so I guess on some level this fight is all she has left...I think Cindy will more than be paid back for her lack of parenting skills....JMO

Absolutely Scamp; no one ever thinks it will end in murder.

But the fact that she is stealing literally every day and Cindy lets it happen is incredible. She is hacking her account on a daily basis. Even if she does not want to make waves re the baby, Cindy has to know that eventually this kind of behavious will get her daughter in trouble and one would think Cindy would want to make sure that doesn't happen by any means possible and that means getting the daughter mental help and that means taking custody for starters - to help her own child and her grandchild.

It is difficult but it needed to be done.

 

[Harvey]

Oh yeah, CA has tremendous responsibility here, IMO. She knew for years ICA was doing all the wrong things. And when CA's lying, thieving, disrespectful (to all) daughter became a mother herself, CA should have marched herself to whatever governmental agency is appropriate and taken custody of that child until and if (big "if") ICA became a productive member of society. To think that ICA would be a decent mother was, well, I don't know what, on CA's part and since they all lived together CA KNEW ICA was STILL doing all the wrong things. Oh yeah, CA was wrong on a lot of levels, beginning way before the birth of that baby. Would counseling, "tough love," etc. have made a difference early in ICA's life? Who knows? I don't think I've seen anything that shows they tried anything but "cover up" when it came to ICA's behavior. And now CA is going to live with tremendous grief all the rest of her life--every day. She publicly blames everyone else and says outright lies (i.e., ICA was a good mother, etc.) but she's paying the price--now and forever--and she has no way out of that.

 

[Tulessa]

And the amount of money she was taking from Cindy's accounts on a daily basis (check writing) is just incredible and it shows that she was not working and was at Target most of the time, practically every other day (what a boring human being) - this is important because Cindy does not know where her grandchild is (she is obviously NOT with a Nanny). This is derelict because it is not a one time shot, it is happening on a daily basis.

And not only this. Cindy is backing her daughter with the Nannie excuse. Cindy says she heard of Zannie the Nannie at least a year prior (I believe). Yet, she never called her to make sure not even when she found the post it with Zannie's number (which is bogus, I have no doubt) the night of July 15th.

All of this does not make Cindy guilty of the murder, but it does make her derelict as far as Caylee's goes.

Does anyone really believe that Cindy would not have called the number she had on the post it as soon as she got home with KC on July 15th. No one believes her story that she was NOT FOCUSED on that, she was focused on getting Caylee. So if you are focused on getting Caylee and you have a number for the person who is believed to have her, would you not call it.

You know Solace, that's what I can't wrap my mind around. We bring our children up to be responsible adults,Not covering for them when they steal.! This just floors me that she just brushed it off and covered it up apparently from GA. :waitasec:

 

[Solace]

I wonder how effective that argument would even be, though, because it's not as if KC was a minor, or even just 18, she was fully an adult in the eyes of the law, it's not as if she was forced to do CA's bidding or anything.

I go back and forth on thinking that CA feels blame at all, sometimes I think she probably tortures herself with would'ves and could'ves, then other times I think perhaps she's disassociated so much that she's just... checked out of reality and doesn't feel any responsibility at all. Who knows other than her, I guess.

I guess she can't be culpable for any sort of child neglect. Legally, KC was poor Caylee's legal guardian, and CA knowing everything she knew, chose to turn a blind eye to the stealing and the not working and even make apologies for it and did not seek out custody herself. Personally, I do think she should be investigated for obstruction. I cannot imagine what her day-to-day life is like, especially if she still is not working and has so much time to just simmer.

I think she is religiious big time in order to keep from thinking about the fact that she did not watch out for Caylee.

 

[Macushla]

I wonder how effective that argument would even be, though, because it's not as if KC was a minor, or even just 18, she was fully an adult in the eyes of the law, it's not as if she was forced to do CA's bidding or anything.

I go back and forth on thinking that CA feels blame at all, sometimes I think she probably tortures herself with would'ves and could'ves, then other times I think perhaps she's disassociated so much that she's just... checked out of reality and doesn't feel any responsibility at all. Who knows other than her, I guess.

I guess she can't be culpable for any sort of child neglect. Legally, KC was poor Caylee's legal guardian, and CA knowing everything she knew, chose to turn a blind eye to the stealing and the not working and even make apologies for it and did not seek out custody herself. Personally, I do think she should be investigated for obstruction. I cannot imagine what her day-to-day life is like, especially if she still is not working and has so much time to just simmer.

Cindy is in the middle of a nightmare that will never end. she knows she allowed KC to become the nasty piece of work she is. The problem is she can not allow herself to acknowledge that KC is not the loving daughter and mother that Cindy wants her to be. Cindy can not allow herself to think about any of this because if she does then she will have to acknowledge that she did or did not do something to make KC this way AND if she had done things differently, Caylee would still be alive. While I do not like Cindy and all of the things she has done, there is still a shred of compassion in me. Can you imagine the guilt of knowing that something you said or did might have been the catalyst for your daughter to murder your granddaughter and if you had done or said things differently, your granddaughter would still be alive. She is living in the H*ll of her own making, and that is so sad.

 

[logicalgirl]

Clearly this is a topic posters here want to continue discussing at length - and we've all got some pretty strong opinions.

Before I continue, I'd like to comment I have read every document, watched every video and news report regarding this case and yes, I read at length at the Hinky.

I think I've also been consistently agreeing that's CA's behavior has been bizarre, unacceptable and probably has broken some laws. However, I've also stopped just short of the leap many others have taken - completely laying the blame for Caylee's death and ICA's behaviors at CA's feet. Why? I simply lack the information I need to come to that conclusion.

My thoughts re all this are pretty clearly posted in #466 in the Amy H. thread. I'm going to need to watch CA throughout the trial, and do some more research before I can jump into the group singing Kumbaya - CA's guilty.

As an aside, Family Case law shows nothing in ICA's behavior would even come close to rising to the point of CA "taking Caylee away from ICA". Even if she got a judge to agree ICA was not providing appropriate care for Caylee, Caylee would have gone into the foster system, not to CA. Grand parents have no custodial rights to their grand children. None.

I can see there is a need to continue to discuss, but I'm going to step aside from this one - primarily because I've said what I've said over and over again, under many different topic headings in many threads since I joined in 2009. I love this site and admire many many of the posters here but don't see what else I have to offer on this topic.

 

[angeldust]

I absolutely do not hold cindy accountable for casey s actions. I know that she has done lots wrong after the fact, so to speak, but I think the reason she let things slide is because of her grandaughter Kids often get used as pawns in a game of chess where parents and grandparents are concerned not that it makes it ok but it does happen more often then we would like to see.

I most certainly do not agree with cindys behaviour now, however, i cannot blame her for not wanting to kick casey to the kerb as she knows she couldnt provide caylee with food home or clothing, no grandmother , whether im right or wrong would do this to their grandchild cindy was between a rock and a hard place. I bet she neve,r no matter how much lies and stealing casey did thought for one sp;it second the she would ever kill her daughter. unfortunately thats exactly what happened.

Maybe, now dont shoot me cos im just putting this out there, the reason cindy was so controlling of casey was because she knew she was a waste of space and was trying to get her to take her responsibilites more seriously except it blewup in her face as the saying goes you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink.

That said i cannot justify any of cindys behaviour after the fact that it became apparent that her daughter killed her granddaughter so that s kinda stumped me i suppose id have to walk a mile in her shoes before i could justify that although i dont really think i could.

 

[bogeygal]

I think she is religiious big time in order to keep from thinking about the fact that she did not watch out for Caylee.

I agree Solace,

She also went into "cleaning mode" as soon as they got the Pontiac back. Washing KC's pants and destroying evidence in the trunk, in order I guess to protect KC. But we don't know if she feels any blame or guilt for her actions.

 

[Tulessa]

I absolutely do not hold cindy accountable for casey s actions. I know that she has done lots wrong after the fact, so to speak, but I think the reason she let things slide is because of her grandaughter Kids often get used as pawns in a game of chess where parents and grandparents are concerned not that it makes it ok but it does happen more often then we would like to see.

I most certainly do not agree with cindys behaviour now, however, i cannot blame her for not wanting to kick casey to the kerb as she knows she couldnt provide caylee with food home or clothing, no grandmother , whether im right or wrong would do this to their grandchild cindy was between a rock and a hard place. I bet she neve,r no matter how much lies and stealing casey did thought for one sp;it second the she would ever kill her daughter. unfortunately thats exactly what happened.

Maybe, now dont shoot me cos im just putting this out there, the reason cindy was so controlling of casey was because she knew she was a waste of space and was trying to get her to take her responsibilites more seriously except it blewup in her face as the saying goes you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink.

That said i cannot justify any of cindys behaviour after the fact that it became apparent that her daughter killed her granddaughter so that s kinda stumped me i suppose id have to walk a mile in her shoes before i could justify that although i dont really think i could.

And right here shows that intelligent people can have differing opinions.

 

[Tulessa]

Clearly this is a topic posters here want to continue discussing at length - and we've all got some pretty strong opinions.

Before I continue, I'd like to comment I have read every document, watched every video and news report regarding this case and yes, I read at length at the Hinky.

I think I've also been consistently agreeing that's CA's behavior has been bizarre, unacceptable and probably has broken some laws. However, I've also stopped just short of the leap many others have taken - completely laying the blame for Caylee's death and ICA's behaviors at CA's feet. Why? I simply lack the information I need to come to that conclusion.

My thoughts re all this are pretty clearly posted in #466 in the Amy H. thread. I'm going to need to watch CA throughout the trial, and do some more research before I can jump into the group singing Kumbaya - CA's guilty.

As an aside, Family Case law shows nothing in ICA's behavior would even come close to rising to the point of CA "taking Caylee away from ICA". Even if she got a judge to agree ICA was not providing appropriate care for Caylee, Caylee would have gone into the foster system, not to CA. Grand parents have no custodial rights to their grand children. None.

I can see there is a need to continue to discuss, but I'm going to step aside from this one - primarily because I've said what I've said over and over again, under many different topic headings in many threads since I joined in 2009. I love this site and admire many many of the posters here but don't see what else I have to offer on this topic.

So have I. I love Val's site!! Again with respect, we just disagree. Nothing wrong with that. That's what makes us *individuals*.

 

[miimaa]

IMO Cindy is not to blame. She raised a spoiled brat. The brat became a narcissistic adult incapable of caring for another human being. CA and GA must have been frustrated with the lies, stealing, partying and irresponsible behavior. Failure to finish high school, no job, no college, revolving door of boyfriends, and a child. Unable to pay her own bills. I wonder if KC ever washed a load of laundry or picked up a dish... I highly doubt it.

 

[Scamperoo]

Clearly this is a topic posters here want to continue discussing at length - and we've all got some pretty strong opinions.

Before I continue, I'd like to comment I have read every document, watched every video and news report regarding this case and yes, I read at length at the Hinky.

I think I've also been consistently agreeing that's CA's behavior has been bizarre, unacceptable and probably has broken some laws. However, I've also stopped just short of the leap many others have taken - completely laying the blame for Caylee's death and ICA's behaviors at CA's feet. Why? I simply lack the information I need to come to that conclusion.

My thoughts re all this are pretty clearly posted in #466 in the Amy H. thread. I'm going to need to watch CA throughout the trial, and do some more research before I can jump into the group singing Kumbaya - CA's guilty.

As an aside, Family Case law shows nothing in ICA's behavior would even come close to rising to the point of CA "taking Caylee away from ICA". Even if she got a judge to agree ICA was not providing appropriate care for Caylee, Caylee would have gone into the foster system, not to CA. Grand parents have no custodial rights to their grand children. None.

I can see there is a need to continue to discuss, but I'm going to step aside from this one - primarily because I've said what I've said over and over again, under many different topic headings in many threads since I joined in 2009. I love this site and admire many many of the posters here but don't see what else I have to offer on this topic.

I agree with you in this, Cindy did nothing but love Caylee, she would never had harmed a hair on her head and the blame for this lies squarely on Casey Anthony.
Cindy's actions after the fact have been reprehensible and very difficult to accept but this does not make her responsible for her daughters actions, Casey was a functioning adult and therefore answerable for her own heinous conduct.

 

[Solace]

Clearly this is a topic posters here want to continue discussing at length - and we've all got some pretty strong opinions.

Before I continue, I'd like to comment I have read every document, watched every video and news report regarding this case and yes, I read at length at the Hinky.

I think I've also been consistently agreeing that's CA's behavior has been bizarre, unacceptable and probably has broken some laws. However, I've also stopped just short of the leap many others have taken - completely laying the blame for Caylee's death and ICA's behaviors at CA's feet. Why? I simply lack the information I need to come to that conclusion.

My thoughts re all this are pretty clearly posted in #466 in the Amy H. thread. I'm going to need to watch CA throughout the trial, and do some more research before I can jump into the group singing Kumbaya - CA's guilty.

As an aside, Family Case law shows nothing in ICA's behavior would even come close to rising to the point of CA "taking Caylee away from ICA". Even if she got a judge to agree ICA was not providing appropriate care for Caylee, Caylee would have gone into the foster system, not to CA. Grand parents have no custodial rights to their grand children. None.

I can see there is a need to continue to discuss, but I'm going to step aside from this one - primarily because I've said what I've said over and over again, under many different topic headings in many threads since I joined in 2009. I love this site and admire many many of the posters here but don't see what else I have to offer on this topic.

Logical,

I don't want to debate family law with you, but there is no court that will put a child in foster care if the grandparents are there and willing to take care of the child and that is where she is comfortable and GREW up. The aim of the court is to keep the child happy and well cared for. They are not going to put a child on the backs of the state if it is not in her best interests.

Since KC had stolen from her grandparents and was hacking her parents accounts on a daily basis and was NOT ABLE to provide for her child outside of the parents home, e.g. bedroom and stable environment, since she is now in the courts, the likelihood and probability is in Cindy's and George's favor and would likely stay that way as KC is a sociopath and unable to hold on to a job for any length of time.

 

[LolaMoon08]

I believe that Caylee is dead because Casey hated Cindy. I believe Caylee is dead because Cindy grilled that poor baby the afternoon and into the evening of June 15th, 2008. I think Caylee is dead because I believe Cindy threatened Casey for the last time (to take Caylee and kick her out) the night of June 15th, 2008.

Cindy and George bare a lot of the blame for the person Casey has become. I'm not willing to put all the blame on just Cindy because George lived in that home too. I'm not going to blame either one of them for the actual murder... because I truely believe that they never thought for a moment that Casey would physically harm Caylee, let alone murder her and they would have fought to the death, at least Cindy, to keep Caylee in the house that day if they thought differently.

I blame Cindy and George for a lot... and I mean a lot! I just think that Casey had choices. She didn't have to murder Caylee. She chose to murder Caylee.

 

[Solace]

I believe that Caylee is dead because Casey hated Cindy. I believe Caylee is dead because Cindy grilled that poor baby the afternoon and into the evening of June 15th, 2008. I think Caylee is dead because I believe Cindy threatened Casey for the last time (to take Caylee and kick her out) the night of June 15th, 2008.

Cindy and George bare a lot of the blame for the person Casey has become. I'm not willing to put all the blame on just Cindy because George lived in that home too. I'm not going to blame either one of them for the actual murder... because I truely believe that they never thought for a moment that Casey would physically harm Caylee, let alone murder her and they would have fought to the death, at least Cindy, to keep Caylee in the house that day if they thought differently.

I blame Cindy and George for a lot... and I mean a lot! I just think that Casey had choices. She didn't have to murder Caylee. She chose to murder Caylee.

Exactly Lola - I agree with you. All I am saying is that Cindy and George are a part of this. Of course KC bears the ultimate responsibility because the act is horrendous and there is no way Cindy thought she would do this, but, overlooking the behaviour of KC and it was bad, did nothing to help Caylee.

 

[Purple Iris]

I wonder how effective that argument would even be, though, because it's not as if KC was a minor, or even just 18, she was fully an adult in the eyes of the law, it's not as if she was forced to do CA's bidding or anything.

I go back and forth on thinking that CA feels blame at all, sometimes I think she probably tortures herself with would'ves and could'ves, then other times I think perhaps she's disassociated so much that she's just... checked out of reality and doesn't feel any responsibility at all. Who knows other than her, I guess.

I guess she can't be culpable for any sort of child neglect. Legally, KC was poor Caylee's legal guardian, and CA knowing everything she knew, chose to turn a blind eye to the stealing and the not working and even make apologies for it and did not seek out custody herself. Personally, I do think she should be investigated for obstruction. I cannot imagine what her day-to-day life is like, especially if she still is not working and has so much time to just simmer.

BINGO ~
What you said about Cindy "checking out".
Yes, she checked out on a convienace basis.
She used this checking out to her advantage, or so she believed.

Whether the checking out was from pure exhaustion, from the daily dealings with not only her daughter, but, also her husband.
Or, due to using it in a pity manner and then turning the tables to hold a dagger over someone's head.

I have no doubt what-so-ever, that in the deep nether regions of her head, that she and her daughter are carbon copies of each other.

She may not have "murdered her daughter", in the way that Casey did, but, she certainly "murdered her" in emotional ways, to mention just one.
She never allowed her daughter to grow up, to become an actual working and functioning adult.
She tells her daughters friends not to trust the girl, tries to keep her emotionally hostage and tied to her apron strings.

Casey Anthony may be breathing now, but, Cindy Anthony took the breath and life out of her a very long time ago, IMO.

She spoke of Casey's "problems", yet, does nothing??

No - it does not happen that way.
You take care of your children.

They have a cold or the flu, you take them to the doctor.
They have something so horrible, that it strikes the very breath out of you and stomps your guts out - you take care of it, as we did with our son.
When the surgeons and doctors and specialists tell you, "sorry, there is nothing we can do", you go to ANOTHER doctor, another surgeon and another specialist until you FIND that answer.
And, maybe that answer is so scarey, more so than the original diagnosis, but, you forge ahead because this is your child.

When the bills start coming in, you pay them.
When the bill collectors start calling and harrassing you, well, you get back in their faces, make arrangements, or let it slide for the time being.
My child's LIFE is more important to me than my frigging credit number. I worked when I could, till I dropped.
I came into this world with nothing but the love of my family, and that is how we all will leave it.

This child, that I gave birth to, that after surgery when things turned grim, I went to the chapel, and I cried.
But, I did not beg for my son's life, as much as I wanted to, I couldn't. There were so many people in that hospital that were in dire circumstances.
All I could do was sit there and cry, and THANK GOD for giving me this gift to TAKE CARE OF.
That I did the best that I could - that if this was His will, I would accept it.
4 hours later, he was out of intensive care.
Why?? How did that happen??

Fast forward to now, from 1996, and this same child, that is now a young man, was having problems with prescription pain management.
And, I knew it.
I saw it ~ I did what I could, and when what I was doing didn't help and I saw that it was beyond me, I took that walk up the court house steps to sign commital papers and have him removed, in handcuffs from our home.
When he was out of treatment, and I saw that he had messed up again, I called 911 and had him removed again.
I couldn't watch his removal, but I knew that it had to be done in order to save his LIFE, again.
If he messes up again, I will not hesitate to do what I have to do.

When you finally reach your breaking point, and you take advantage of your works "3 free counciling sessions", you take those.
If that doesn't take care of it, you CONTINUE at your own expense, again, as I did, and you make do and eventullay pay that also.

Whew - sorry ~ This has me shakng and I really didn't think that once I started writing, I would get so emotional.
But it is real, and it is raw, and it is what you do damn it.
No parent wants to.
But, I can tell you all one thing.
I did not care one whit or bit what people thought of the later circumstances of what we went through in the last couple of years.
Stuff happens ~ stuff happens ~ You take care of it or die yourself trying.

Yes, Cindy does hold some responsibilty.
No one wants to ever believe that their child could do the things that Casey Anthony has been charged with.
But, when you, yourself, SEE IT, day after day, at some point, you DO SOMETHING.
She never did anything because she/Cindy, murdered/crippled her own daughter many years ago, IMO.

And, she KNOWS this as well, or she wouldn't be lieing at every opportunity that is put to her.

Thanks for hearing me out ~