Casey & Family Psychological Profile #8

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Good points Friday. I can't imagine that Cindy ever gave instruction to Casey about how to eventually become independent. It is a step process, as most parent's know and doesn't usually happen the day they turn 18. I get the strong feeling that Cindy never wanted to prepare Casey for independence, a life away from her. If she did anything, she furthered Casey's dependence on her.

I don't mean to be contrary, Searchfortruth. I enjoy your posts and agree with you much of the time.

However, I can't go along with this particular one.

I can only use myself as an example. My own parents did nothing to instruct me on how to become independent. Getting out of the house and out on my own was due only to my own very strong desire to do so. I was living on my own and supporting myself with a job in a fast food restaurant when I was barely 17. And I continue to support myself, 30 years later.

KC gets no sympathy from me for being 'trapped' with a family she did not want to be with or being ill prepared for the outside world. There was nothing that could stop her, not even CA, if she wanted to leave.
 
the topic is not paternity but as it relates to the family psyche profile is fine, but beyond that is OT.
Please do not turn this into a paternity thread.

Thanks to those that have brought it back around on topic.
 
Bold by me: Not if she'd been in that pattern of abuse , being raped since she was 2. I mean there are pedophiles blanketing the internet with "How To" videos on how to have sex with and infant-12 years of age. It does ocur. I know a woman who was forced to bear her fathers child @16. The child has no abnormalities and was given up for adoption almost immediately, if for no other reason then to not also be victimized prior to the mothers escape.

There are some really great website who give great information as to the whys and what-nots. I should get a few links. So do you think that because KC was sexually active, no more so then the average college aged person in my opinion, that that makes her a willing partner to rape or forced incest (if that was even the case. I thought it was ok to discuss our theories.



I don't think I can think of one person, now living or ever, who was "just born that way". Some may choose to stay that way, and I agree KC was this type at this stage of her life. I'm not saying because some types of abuse may have happened to her that it let's KC off the hook. No...That is NOT what I'm saying. What I am saying is this, how much of this can be considered contributing factors or even motive?

Well, FIRST we have ZERO indication that she was "raped since the age of 2," or ever raped at ALL.


If incest or rape, BTW, was a motive for killing one's child, there would be a good deal more of it. It is not a motive. Not an acceptable motive. I've never had an incest patient who would ever consider it. Nor have I ever had a rape victim patient that has remotely considered it.

And, LE believes they HAVE the motive-- KC wanted to party. Caylee was in the way. And, KC also wanted to get back at CA, over the fight they had.

Given that LE has access to ALL the evidence, they would likely be in the best position to determine what the motive was.

I DO have a friend who was raped from age eight to 13, by a stepfather. He's in jail. She one of the best people in the world. She has also forgiven her mother for overlooking the crime because, "It takes too much energy to hate."

And, if you watch ID Channel, you will see some interesting studies re: sociopathy and innate wiring. There are actual difference in the brain structures.

So, KC wanted to go that route, she'd have to present the dr. reports, the school reports, and the CPS reports. Sexual abuse (or any kind of abuse) shows pretty specific signs and symptoms. Doctors, nurses, and teachers are mandated reporters. She could get her elementary school records, for starters. The signs and symptoms would be there, along with specific behaviors and abrupt dips in performance.

And, again, KC is not dominated by either her brother or her father. In fact, it's pretty much the other way around.

Then, there are the A computers. LE looked at them all. Kiddie *advertiser censored*? Incest w/s? Not found. People who were into this stuff wouldn't likely lose interest.

Then, we'd have to look for S/S of sexaul abuse in Caylee. Which no one has noticed. She appeared to have been a healthy little girl.

Sexual preditors don't just "get tired" of preying on kids. They go to other kids.

A lot of kids these days are promiscuous. That isn't a gold-standard indication of rape or incest. That's the zeitgeist. In the mid-70s is was prolly even worse. Lots of promiscuity, no more rape and incest than now. I know. I was there. And, it was FUN! And, I was never raped, nor was there incest in my seriously dysfunctional family.

So, have a good time on the Lot. It's a perfectly good place to talk, and it is less likely to hurt anyone. The As are doing enough wrong stuff.. we don't have to make up more lurid rumors, without evidence.
 
I don't mean to be contrary, Searchfortruth. I enjoy your posts and agree with you much of the time.

However, I can't go along with this particular one.

I can only use myself as an example. My own parents did nothing to instruct me on how to become independent. Getting out of the house and out on my own was due only to my own very strong desire to do so. I was living on my own and supporting myself with a job in a fast food restaurant when I was barely 17. And I continue to support myself, 30 years later.

KC gets no sympathy from me for being 'trapped' with a family she did not want to be with or being ill prepared for the outside world. There was nothing that could stop her, not even CA, if she wanted to leave.
I know that many young women and men are able to escape the bad environment they were born into. Maybe Casey was just as able and chose to stay for her own benefit. I guess you could say I am sometimes torn on the situation. I see Cindy and George's behavior and envision the house she grew up in and it's confusing as to where to lay the blame. While Caylee's death was Casey's doing, I don't think Cindy or George played a part, I do have questions as to what all went into the "making of Casey". It's hard for me to understand this sociopathic behavior where one is born a potential killer...I tend to want to look at the environment people grow up in. I have no experience with "sociopath's" (thankfully) and this born bad definition is difficult to accept for me.
 
I know that many young women and men are able to escape the bad environment they were born into. Maybe Casey was just as able and chose to stay for her own benefit. I guess you could say I am sometimes torn on the situation. I see Cindy and George's behavior and envision the house she grew up in and it's confusing as to where to lay the blame. While Caylee's death was Casey's doing, I don't think Cindy or George played a part, I do have questions as to what all went into the "making of Casey". It's hard for me to understand this sociopathic behavior where one is born a potential killer...I tend to want to look at the environment people grow up in. I have no experience with "sociopath's" (thankfully) and this born bad definition is difficult to accept for me.

The blame is on the killer. She made the choice, knowing what she was doing.
 
The blame is on the killer. She made the choice, knowing what she was doing.
Yes, I have no question as to who is responsible for Caylee's death. My "confusion" comes in when trying to figure out what went into making Casey the person she is today.
 
Yes, I have no question as to who is responsible for Caylee's death. My "confusion" comes in when trying to figure out what went into making Casey the person she is today.

Well, the talking head shrinks are saying that she's a sociopath-- like most criminals, who end up in jail.

How they get there is thought to be heredity and enviornment.

Beyond that is anybody's guess.

It's prolly the same way as Scott Peterson got there.
 
I know that many young women and men are able to escape the bad environment they were born into. Maybe Casey was just as able and chose to stay for her own benefit. I guess you could say I am sometimes torn on the situation. I see Cindy and George's behavior and envision the house she grew up in and it's confusing as to where to lay the blame. While Caylee's death was Casey's doing, I don't think Cindy or George played a part, I do have questions as to what all went into the "making of Casey". It's hard for me to understand this sociopathic behavior where one is born a potential killer...I tend to want to look at the environment people grow up in. I have no experience with "sociopath's" (thankfully) and this born bad definition is difficult to accept for me.

Casey could escape the Anthony household.
She couldn't escape it and take care of Caylee.
There in lies the difference.

Casey was not held there by fear for her physical well being.
She was not held there because she believed she was protecting another family member from harm. She was not held captive by a lack of intelligence. By a lack of opportunity. This is a street savy girl.

She was held there by the burden of caring for her child. A child that in my opinion she didn't want from day one and one that she resented having everytime she couldn't go out with her friends, everytime her boy of the week complained about her availability. That is Casey's motivation, sparked by a blow out fight with Cindy where Caylee was used as leverage by Cindy for the 1,000,006th time.

I don't find the type of abuse in the Anthony home to rise to the level of "understandable" violence in any scenario but if that was her motivation than the scenarios that would make "sense" to me would be:

Suicide, taking Caylee with her, to escape the pain and to make sure Caylee wasn't abused the way Casey was.

Choking Cindy in a fit of rage over the who is the mother of this child/endless control issues. This takes the controller out of her life, not her child.

If the motivation is prevent your child from being sexually abused than George or Lee would be the target.

That is not what we are dealing with. This is not a "battered wife"/fear/protecting my child defense scenario. This is a cold blooded you are in the way of what I want and before I let my B@tch of a mother have the satisfaction of me admitting I am unfit mother I will kill her. She is expendable. "And maybe I am a vindictive *****".

As Maya Angelou says, when someone tells you who they are, listen to them.
 
Casey could escape the Anthony household.
She couldn't escape it and take care of Caylee.
There in lies the difference.

Casey was not held there by fear for her physical well being.
She was not held there because she believed she was protecting another family member from harm. She was not held captive by a lack of intelligence. By a lack of opportunity. This is a street savy girl.

She was held there by the burden of caring for her child. A child that in my opinion she didn't want from day one and one that she resented having everytime she couldn't go out with her friends, everytime her boy of the week complained about her availability. That is Casey's motivation, sparked by a blow out fight with Cindy where Caylee was used as leverage by Cindy for the 1,000,006th time.

I don't find the type of abuse in the Anthony home to rise to the level of "understandable" violence in any scenario but if that was her motivation than the scenarios that would make "sense" to me would be:

Suicide, taking Caylee with her, to escape the pain and to make sure Caylee wasn't abused the way Casey was.

Choking Cindy in a fit of rage over the who is the mother of this child/endless control issues. This takes the controller out of her life, not her child.

If the motivation is prevent your child from being sexually abused than George or Lee would be the target.

That is not what we are dealing with. This is not a "battered wife"/fear/protecting my child defense scenario. This is a cold blooded you are in the way of what I want and before I let my B@tch of a mother have the satisfaction of me admitting I am unfit mother I will kill her. She is expendable. "And maybe I am a vindictive *****".

As Maya Angelou says, when someone tells you who they are, listen to them.

Can I join your fan club?:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:
 
Yes, I have no question as to who is responsible for Caylee's death. My "confusion" comes in when trying to figure out what went into making Casey the person she is today.

A seed of genetically inherted mental illness and/or personality disorder, a seed that is then unwittingly watered and nurtured in a dysfunctional environment.

Someone germinated and nurtured Cindy's personality disorder too. From her parents to her husband to her kids and to raising Caylee I honestly believe that Cindy thinks and possibly has done the absolute best she is capable of. She does not have the ability to see that what she does enables George's behaviors and makes the situation worse, enables Casey and escalates her behavior, and endangers Caylee and will be a mess she can't begin to clean up.

What starts as cleaning up this mess and then things will get better can quickly spiral out of control when there is no counterbalance to things back to the middle. What is the old adage about what attracts you to your spouse initially will be what you hate about them later. Cindy was attracted to George's willingness to be passive. And I promise you she hated him for those same traits later.

To me that is the difference between them. Cindy didn't seem to be ill intentioned and wishing harm upon her family. I don't think she set out to see how F'ed up she could make Casey. The out come is the same, but I don't think the intent was there. Casey set out to harm family members, to steal from them, to make allegations about sexual advances made towards her, total disregard for the stress she put the household under through her antics, and then finally with killing her child.
 
From all I've seen, GA appears to be a fairly attractive man of limited intelligence and extremely weak character who attempts to hide his weaknesses behind artificial smiles, foolish threats, and childish temper tantrums. He is in every way a perfect foil, and tool, for CA.

Although I detest CA and KC, they at least are proving to be frustratingly worthy foes in our battle for justice for Caylee. George, however, is just an embarrassment--in fact he's actually managed to become an embarrassment to both sides. LOL

I'm in the minority (again :crazy:) but I think you're all going to be in for a huge shock if the prosecution gets ole George on the witness stand and starts probing into his original reaction to KC's pregnancy, to having KC and Caylee living in the Hope Spring house...and exactly when he developed the all-consuming Grandfatherly love for, and total pleasure in, little Caylee. You know--the kind of doting Grandfatherly adoration that he's talked about and wept about during interviews, at the memorial, and during the deposition.

I don't doubt for a moment that Cindy adored that child and lived for her. But I have a whole lot of doubts about how devoted to Caylee that George was prior to July 15th.
NO--I am not hinting that I think GA ever harmed a hair on Caylee's head. I don't.

Hi Friday! You are not in the minority because I agree with your statements about GA. He seems to "act" the way he thinks he is expected to but I do not think his "act-ions" are genuine at all. He makes me very uncomfortable. Something is not right about ol' George.
 
I see a very angry man in George, no matter how he tries to hide it with the smiles and BS. We saw just a small sample of his anger with the protestors, something tells me that's nothing compared to what he is really capable of. I think we will hear more about this at trial, maybe..

Oh no, George is not as he appears.
 
Check out "The Sociopath Next Door" by Dr. Martha Stout. It is a fascinating and insightful read. Chances are huge you HAVE encountered a true sociopath (apparently approximately 4 in 100 people are sociopaths) and just didn't know it. Dr. Stout wrote that when people ask her how to recognize them to be wary of people who try to engage your pity. Sociopaths know that much will be excused of someone whom we pity. I am sure Ton-EE got an earful about how awful her parents were to her and so on right from the beginning.

You are right, PrintGal. I am reading this book now and it is a great eye opening book. I second your recommendation that everyone interested should read this book.
 
I feel as though I need to clear up few things my post last night (which I have also updated).... I believe that some may have misinterpreted a few things and well… I screwed up one stance that I took and I want to correct that mistake. (I will warn you I can write forever so if you get bored, I'm sorry and feel free to skip right past this post)

First I want to address the difference between a “true sociopath” and a person with sociopathic traits. True sociopaths are born, sociopathic traits are learned. True sociopaths must meet certain behavioral criteria before the age of 15; academic difficulties, truancy, bullying, inability to make friends (or keep them), cruelty towards animals, pyromania, vandalism. There is no doubt that KC has sociopathic traits as an adult, but she has a smorgasbord of other traits as well; narcissism, adjustment disorder, anxiety, depression, possible PTSD, learned helplessness (which I will bring up further along).

As far as I know we do not have any hard evidence that during KC’s childhood/high school years she exhibited any anti-social behaviors other than lying which were reported by a few childhood friends and even those are subject to contradiction. If anyone has any interviews, school transcripts, etc. that report aberrant childhood behaviors, then I apologize and ask that you please let me know where they are and I will humbly stand corrected.

There are different degrees of, reasons for and definitions of a "victim".... We can all agree that Caylee was a victim. Some can say that KC was a victim of the environment from which she was raised. Some can say that KC was not a victim because she knew the difference between right and wrong; KC could have, should have followed the rules of society. Both assertions could be correct….

It is not always easy to define a person as a victim when something bad happens to them. How many define a person that was struck by lightening a victim of a freak accident? How many would say they should not have been outside in the first place? Were there mitigating circumstances? Was it during a storm? Then they aren’t a victim. Were they trying to get away from the storm? Then they are a victim. On the surface both assertions could be correct.

I stated in my earlier post that I have a hard time providing sympathy to people that blame their parents for their failures and are able to recognize their ability to function “normally” has been impacted but do nothing about it. However…. I am going to correct myself… and apologize profusely for making such an egregious error by providing that blanket statement.

Just as there are many variations of opinions for what defines a “victim”, there are also other circumstances where it may be too difficult for a person to do anything regarding their inability to function "normally". Learned helplessness is incredibly damaging. A child that is a victim of learned helplessness will suffer the consequences as an adult. There are varying degrees of impact that could range from being inept at doing your laundry and keeping your whites white, to being unable to keep a job, or far worse…

If anyone has ever loved a narcissist… and if you were exposed to learned helplessness as a child… getting them out of your life is one of the most difficult things you could ever endure. You know they are toxic, you know you need to get away but you chose stay… Narcissists have an unreal ability to keep you with them… their victims often describe the emotions that they feel when they finally leave as euphoric and that they almost felt like they were hypnotized. Unless you have lived it is doubtful you would believe that anyone could have control over another adult that is by most definitions sane, independent and perfectly capable of leaving anytime they want but “willingly” chose to stay despite knowing they shouldn’t. Most would not define them as victim because they knew it was wrong but they chose to stay… but those people would be very, very wrong. I know, oh my God… do I know (emotionally, physically & financially)… I was a “recruited volunteer victim” for 5 years and I still don’t believe it…

It is possible that KC wanted to leave numerous times but out of guilt, obligation, fear, believing that she was a failure at everything, she may not have had the willpower until that brew of disorder that CA & GA had been cooking for 22 years finally boiled over.

KC may not meet everyone’s standard definition of a victim because she knows the difference between right and wrong (she does – no one can argue that). A child that is taught learned behaviors, manages to function normally for most of their life with those disorders and does not commit any crimes can be defined as a victim of their childhood environment. However, that environment that defined them as a victim and shaped them into the adult they become instantly erases their life’s history and removes their label as a victim the moment they cross the line between right and wrong. I struggle with that automatic deletion but I do not excuse choosing wrong over right..

Before I get burned at the stake I want to restate that there are many, many variations of victims, predators, and what is “normal”. Some are clear cut, others require further analysis… all are open to interpretation.

Do I think KC is a victim? I don’t think she is a victim for the reasons that she is very much deservedly sitting in jail.

Do I think she was a victim of an environment that molded her into the endless diagnoses of disorders that she is today… yes, I do… without a doubt.
 
I wonder if part of Cindy's reasoning for the constant interference between George and Casey was because of past anger issues on George's part. I don't think it's normal to have to take off time from work because your daughter and your husband are "arguing". I would think if you had a daughter like Casey, out of control, you would appreciate your husband's help in reigning this daughter in. Either Cindy didn't want anyone to punish Casey or she was afraid of George's inability to control himself, IMO.
 
I have seen a possible diagnosis for Casey listed as APD. What are the differences between a sociopath and someone with Antisocial personality disorder ? Thanks in advance !
 
I.

<snipped for space>

Before I get burned at the stake I want to restate that there are many, many variations of victims, predators, and what is &#8220;normal&#8221;. Some are clear cut, others require further analysis&#8230; all are open to interpretation.

Do I think KC is a victim? I don&#8217;t think she is a victim for the reasons that she is very much deservedly sitting in jail.

Do I think she was a victim of an environment that molded her into the endless diagnoses of disorders that she is today&#8230; yes, I do&#8230; without a doubt.

Great post. I have the greatest empathy for the situation she was forced to grow up in. I do think she is the victim of emotional abuse and parental manipulation at a minimum.

But I don't think being a victim explains the why some commits heinous acts against others. The vast vast majority of victims of parental abuse do not become criminals.

We may not come out of the family home with the best coping skills, or well equipped to be in any intimate relationship. But what is learned can generally be unlearned as well (when you know better you do better). No one taught Casey to kill. She didn't grow up in Gacy's basement.

We are not a purely blank slate when we are born. We have our own inherent traits and personalities. I think her behaviours were molded by her environment but the core of who Casey is belongs purely to her. She does not have empathy and you cannot teach empathy after a very very young age. She is broken beyond repair. It is tragic all the way around.

Had I turned out to be a lunatic and committed some heinous crime my mother would not be responsible, not even partially. She would be exactly what she was the day before I committed the crime, a really bad mother. The flipside of that coin is that my mother use to try to take credit for me being a functional member of society, proved she wasn't a bad mother. Just as she would not be to blame had I gone the other way she does not get credit either. She was not able to change the core of who I am. (She really should have gotten the therapy bills though... LOL).

I don't think the core of who Casey is has changed either. She could have been raised in much more secure home only to have learned to mimic more appropriate behavior and gotten away with her crimes. Just imagine if she had been able to act like a normal mother after the fact. Her core belief systems allows her to consider murder a viable solution to her problems. That is just a ticking time bomb waiting to go off.
 
I have seen a possible diagnosis for Casey listed as APD. What are the differences between a sociopath and someone with Antisocial personality disorder ? Thanks in advance !

It has been awhile but if I have this straight sociopath is a loosly defined term that is frequently used interchangably with antisocial and psychopath. ASD and Psychopath are both formal dx, sociopath is not.

Psychopathy More Specific than APD
Because the diagnosis of APD is based primarily of a short list of antisocial behaviors, and psychopathy is more clearly defined as including many subjective traits, the diagnosis of APD is, by nature, less discriminating.

What is APD?



According to the DSM-IV-TR (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders), in order to be diagnosed with Antisocial Personality Disorder, a patient must have a persistent history of disregard for and violation of the others’ rights, occurring since age 15, evidenced by three (or more) of the following seven traits:http://personalitydisorders.suite101.com/article.cfm/psychopathy_sociopathy_or_apd
  • failure to conform to social norms
  • deceitfulness, repeated lying, use of aliases, or manipulation of others
  • impulsivity or failure to plan ahead
  • irritability and aggressiveness
  • reckless disregard for safety of self or others
  • consistent irresponsibility
  • lack of remorse, indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt or mistreated others

Psychopathy More Specific than APD
Because the diagnosis of APD is based primarily of a short list of antisocial behaviors, and psychopathy is more clearly defined as including many subjective traits, the diagnosis of APD is, by nature, less discriminating.
 
A seed of genetically inherted mental illness and/or personality disorder, a seed that is then unwittingly watered and nurtured in a dysfunctional environment.

Someone germinated and nurtured Cindy's personality disorder too. From her parents to her husband to her kids and to raising Caylee I honestly believe that Cindy thinks and possibly has done the absolute best she is capable of. She does not have the ability to see that what she does enables George's behaviors and makes the situation worse, enables Casey and escalates her behavior, and endangers Caylee and will be a mess she can't begin to clean up.

What starts as cleaning up this mess and then things will get better can quickly spiral out of control when there is no counterbalance to things back to the middle. What is the old adage about what attracts you to your spouse initially will be what you hate about them later. Cindy was attracted to George's willingness to be passive. And I promise you she hated him for those same traits later.

To me that is the difference between them. Cindy didn't seem to be ill intentioned and wishing harm upon her family. I don't think she set out to see how F'ed up she could make Casey. The out come is the same, but I don't think the intent was there. Casey set out to harm family members, to steal from them, to make allegations about sexual advances made towards her, total disregard for the stress she put the household under through her antics, and then finally with killing her child.

:clap:

You should change your screen name to Impatientsmartypants because your posts are so on the mark! :blowkiss:
 
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