Casey's Body Language and Reactionary Comments#3

[Searchfortruth]

I am thinking about the times that I have cried, or seen others cry (genuinely), and can't remember ever balling up my fists like what we saw in Casey yesterday. Usually, based on my experience, when the tears start to flow the emphasis is on the face, eyes, breathing. I just don't remember fist clenching being part of the process.

 

[Searchfortruth]

It's my personal belief that KC is suffering from/afflicted by OCD. this is what causes her self-soothing devices/tatics of constant primping and fidgeting.
that being said, it does NOT negate her murderous act upon her very own baby girl. BUT, left untreated, as her trial begins and progresses, we will only see MORE of the symptoms manifest.
Her anxiety levels are already out-of-control. At trial, we will witness more and more signs of this. She WILL have anxiety attacks during the trial. Mark my words. UNLESS, BOZO is smart enough to have her seen and treated by a qualified shrink. If this had been done a year ago, perhaps KC's chemical imbalances would be corrected to the point where she would have simply confessed to her sins.

I am not an OCD expert, but do know a little on the subject. Casey's constant primping with her hair, which we have noticed in court, would need to have been present before her incarceration, and trouble with the law (to be qualified as OCD, my opinion). If it's being done now, as a result of the stress of incarceration, I would link it more to nervousness related to the situation.

I would be very surpried if she hasn't already seen a shrink, on numerous occasions in jail. Many of the inmates go on anti-depressants, etc..while incarcerated. Some trial lawyers like to take their clients off the anti-depressants before trial so that the client appears less numb and cold..more emotional.

OCD...I'm just not so sure that is a diagnosis linked to Casey.

 

[Ripley007]

I am thinking about the times that I have cried, or seen others cry (genuinely), and can't remember ever balling up my fists like what we saw in Casey yesterday. Usually, based on my experience, when the tears start to flow the emphasis is on the face, eyes, breathing. I just don't remember fist clenching being part of the process.

I have did as she did, cried while balling up fists (and pounding on a hard surface).....sure, when having a horrid argument with a MAN where he messed up big time....!!!
NEVER, NEVER, in a time of tears from true grief. KC was ANGRY at Friday's hearing-NO DOUBT whatsoever! Let Nobody be mistaken about that!

 

[txsvicki]

Wow. That was a sobering post.

I agree, but without treatment, let the fun/drama begin...KC gets this anxious and worked up at a half-hour hearing, just WAIT till the trial begins. I predict that MORE THAN ONCE, KC will flip out, hyperventilate and all, and have a full blown anxiety attack for the whole world to witness. Without meds for her obvious chemical imbalances....this WILL happen!

I was looking at the slideshow of the hearing in order to look closely at each pic. I was wondering if Casey might be medicated and that could affect her body language. She looks so stiff and didn't change the position of her body except to bring her arms closely up and put her arm on the chair rail to lean over to the attorney. She kept her shoulders so rigid in the chair. That look in the eyes is really scary and not planned IMO, but I believe all her movements are closely monitored and preplanned by herself even if she's upset or anxious at the time.

 

[Ripley007]

Just my own personal belief, but I DO NOT think KC is taking meds for her many psychological disorders. I think the stiff armed, scary-eyed girl is the real thing. She SHOULD be on meds, but I'd bet anything, she's not. Certainly NOT anything to treat her OCD. Thus the anxiety ridden, hair flippen, shirt adjusting, eye dabbing B* that we all see....in her full glory.
RIP Caylee

 

[Crabcake23]

I found the deep overall redness of the perp's face telling, along with other expressions. People feeling grief do not get that red even from tears- often they are pale, their features blanched and pinched; with grief there is also a softening of the general stance and a downward turn to the mouth and eyes. The area of redness and puffiness is pretty specific around the tearful eyes, etc. The eyes spill over with tears or are luminous, rather than remaining sharp or glittering (with anger). A conspicuously and wholly red face with a constriction rather than softening of the eyebrows tells me it was anger. In my experience.

Great post. Very insightful.

 

[azwriter]

Just my own personal belief, but I DO NOT think KC is taking meds for her many psychological disorders. I think the stiff armed, scary-eyed girl is the real thing. She SHOULD be on meds, but I'd bet anything, she's not. Certainly NOT anything to treat her OCD. Thus the anxiety ridden, hair flippen, shirt adjusting, eye dabbing B* that we all see....in her full glory.
RIP Caylee

Ditto. Her fear and anger were for real. Meds would have helped her to relax and be more in control.

 

[2goldfish]

FWIW I dont think the hair fiddling is related to OCD. she would be more likely twirling it or pulling it out for one thing. I think it's a "there, there" gesture to herself.

ALTHOUGH it might be a control issue anyways, not related to OCD. because she has no control over anything at all in that courtroom besides her clothes and hair.

(ocd since childhood myself, everyone with it is different but I never heard of anything like hair smoothing. it could be. but if the thoughts on her being a sociopath are true then does that make an anxiety disorder less likely?)

 

[wenwe4]

I noticed quite a few posts about watching without the sound which can be very telling, but I encourage you to now watch again with the sound. The body language is in response to what she is being exposed to in the moment. (ie: when you see her grab her wrist - it is in response to what she has just heard). I wish we could see what was going on with her other hand during Ashton's speech.

 

[believe09]

You know, if Casey could actually cry live tears....heartrending tears, when the subject of Caylee's murder was brought up, she would be a dream for Baez. He could take that and run with it. If she came into court bowed over with emotion because it was the one year anniversary of her daughters discovery...her attorneys could spin that. But it is her lack of affect, except when she is angry or inappropriately smiling....She sits waiting for it all to go away, to have someone take off her shackles and let her head on out the door.

She just seems so untouched by all of this....I dont know, jmo.

 

[Tulessa]

http://drlillianglassbodylanguageblog.wordpress.com/

This lady is also a good body language interpreter.

OMG! Zorra?

NM! Must have had a brain freeze!

 

[seagull65]

The website listed above is pretty complex and breaks down the body language techniques into anatomical regions, ie; arms, legs, hands, face, etc...You may have to do some reading to find one that corresponds with our "subject".

There is much more that others will pick up on, but the first thing that struck me, in regards to Casey's body positioning, in the hearing was this. It was taken from the above website.

BBM.

Attack signals

"When somebody is about to attack, they give visual signal such as clenching of fists ready to strike and lowering and spreading of the body for stability. They are also likely to give anger signs such as redness of the face."

http://changingminds.org/techniques/body/aggressive_body.htm

Obviously the clenching of the fists, exhibited by Casey, grabbed my attention.
I am sure there are others that I missed, like the holding of one arm with her fist. I am certain this must mean something, but I had a hard time finding it. Maybe some WS'ers will figure it out along the way.

haven't caught up on the thread here, just saw your post asking about the holding of one arm with other hand. I've always heard this type of gesture generally interpreted as a "self-control" type gesture, like holding oneself back. When people are trying to be tactful or self-controlled they supposedly will sometimes hold onto one forearm like this. But usually that's when the arms are down, in a normal more relaxed situation.
Of course in reality every person uses gestures differently, and it depends on the situation. I find Casey's wrist-holding gesture interesting too and I'm not sure yet what I think about it, on a previous thread some of us were wondering if she could be remembering someone (potentially Caylee) being bound or restrained at the wrists, or just picturing such a thing because of the description Mr Ashton was giving, or who knows, if she was even remembering being bound at the wrists or grabbed by the wrists herself, or whatever.
Other thoughts that came to mind for me is that this could be a helplessness gesture, like "my hands are tied", I'm powerless to change this situation, or, I was powerless in that situation that was being described.
Another thought might be if Mr. Ashton's description or thinking of Caylee made her remember a bracelet or watch or something for some reason, (I don't know if this could be the heart bracelet that we've seen in pictures or what, totally brainstorming), or if his speech just made her think of handcuffs. Also, this gesture is somewhat similar to a hand-wringing gesture, anxiety, worry, fear. JMO also, the way her arm was raised was maybe a defensive thing like trying to protect herself

 

[seagull65]

Just my own personal belief, but I DO NOT think KC is taking meds for her many psychological disorders. I think the stiff armed, scary-eyed girl is the real thing. She SHOULD be on meds, but I'd bet anything, she's not. Certainly NOT anything to treat her OCD. Thus the anxiety ridden, hair flippen, shirt adjusting, eye dabbing B* that we all see....in her full glory.
RIP Caylee

That's funny because I was thinking from the bad skin we've seen and how awful she's been looking, and also from the decrease in the picking at her hands and nails and the slight decrease in the compulsive, symmetrical hair smoothing (seems like it used to be worse) that she was probably medicated. In one of the previous hearings her eyes were drifting and jerking really bad too, I thought either she was on too much medication at that time, (but who knows maybe just very tired, or maybe just a condition that she has, I wasn't sure.) But you could be right
I figured just because of the hyperventilating they probably would have put her on something but I don't know anything about how often they give medications in prisons

 

[Kentjbkent]

That's funny because I was thinking from the bad skin we've seen and how awful she's been looking, and also from the decrease in the picking at her hands and nails and the slight decrease in the compulsive, symmetrical hair smoothing (seems like it used to be worse) that she must be on meds. (In one of the previous hearings her eyes were drifting and jerking really bad too, I thought either she was on too much medication at that time, or who knows just very tired, or maybe just a condition that she has, I wasn't sure.) But you could be right
I figured just because of the hyperventilating they probably would have put her on something but I don't know anything about how often they give medications in prisons

For a moment on Friday morning, I also thought she might be medicated. I was at work and had a 9:30 client coming in so knew I was not going to be able to watch hearing online, but logged into WS reading current thread waiting on client arrival. Someone posted that a particular feed had started and I clicked on it. Whoever's feed it was, it was a closeup shot of KC from waist up.

I watched about 5 minutes (until client arrived) and the whole time, she was staring in a deadpan gaze at the desk.....nothing moving. Even watched for blinking, which occurred rarely....it was like she was somewhere else. I wondered then if she was medicated.....then I had to go, and have only seen videotaped footage since.

So maybe? maybe not???

 

[autumnlover]

FWIW I dont think the hair fiddling is related to OCD. she would be more likely twirling it or pulling it out for one thing. I think it's a "there, there" gesture to herself.

ALTHOUGH it might be a control issue anyways, not related to OCD. because she has no control over anything at all in that courtroom besides her clothes and hair.

(ocd since childhood myself, everyone with it is different but I never heard of anything like hair smoothing. it could be. but if the thoughts on her being a sociopath are true then does that make an anxiety disorder less likely?)

Respectfully BBM. You make an interesting point. Sociopaths don't feel fear so it would be interesting to see if there's any research regarding sociopaths and anxiety.

Also, IMO, the hair thing is an affectation - more of an "I'm so gorgeous" gesture. She's making sure she looks pretty for the cameras.

 

[seagull65]

I was wondering, regarding the things she was saying during her breakdown during Mr Ashton's description of Caylee's death, could you guys tell what the second thing Casey said was?

The first thing sounded like either "....stop" or "....not". Then later on it sounded like she said a one word thing that sounded like "Jeff", anyone manage to hear what she said there?

 

[Kentjbkent]

[/B]

Respectfully BBM. You make an interesting point. Sociopaths don't feel fear so it would be interesting to see if there's any research regarding sociopaths and anxiety.

Also, IMO, the hair thing is an affectation - more of an "I'm so gorgeous" gesture. She's making sure she looks pretty for the cameras.

I am pretty sure I read in the beginning of the sociopath-next door book something about gesturing and hand movement, but am still looking. Will post a direct quote if and when I find it....

 

[passionflower]

When I sobbed over a death once with no tissues around;
I noticed that my blouse front was even wet with tears (andslober or snot)???
LOL, sorry not polite for a lady!

anyone notice how tight KC keeps her arms into her body?
Is she trying to shrink??? look little????

 

[Kentjbkent]

Interesting......

Also, read Cleckley's speculations on what was "really wrong" with these people. He comes very close to suggesting that they are human in every respect - but that they lack a soul. This lack of "soul quality" makes them very efficient "machines." They can be brilliant, write scholarly works, imitate the words of emotion, but over time, it becomes clear that their words do not match their actions. They are the type of person who can claim that they are devastated by grief who then attend a party "to forget." The problem is: they really DO forget.

http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htm

 

[seagull65]

she may also just like the way her hair feels when it's straightened. The first time I had my hair straightened I kept feeling it because it felt so different (kind of like doll hair!)
ha ha
But she has so many compulsive/nervous grooming/picking gestures, I always figured the hair smoothing was just another one. I've never seen someone do that two-handed hair smoothing like her where she seems to be measuring if her hair is exactly the same length and in the same position on both sides.
I've also never seen someone pick at their hands as hard as she does. She picks even at the lines on the palms of her hands, or maybe trying to find any calloused place that she can pick off or I don't know what.
Or could just be general preening as mentioned above!