Catch 22? Why stay at the family home?

[nurseratchett]

Hello Nurse ....snipped

What might be interesting, IF she does eventually move out, might be the estate of the house at that time AND particularly of Kyron's bedroom and belongings. If I were Kaine and Desiree, I would not leave that to chance, but would get my hands on my missing son's belongings UNLESS LE said, "No...as much as you want to do that, please don't."

Oh Wrinkles....
I didn't even think about how awful it must feel to have to be "away" from Kyrons "stuff". I am very sentimental (my DD says packrat) and frequently take comfort in touching the things that my lost loved ones have left behind. It must be horribly painful for Kaine to have left so much of Kyron there~ his belongings, memories, and his spirit.

 

[mchris1024]

maybe she is still in the house so she can "communicate" with whoever has Kyron....I sure hope so

 

[TxLady2]

Hello Carole,

OT...but maybe important...

I just read something here:
http://www.divorcenet.com/states/north_carolina/ncfaq_09

It states:

"The first step in the process is 'identification'. The court must determine which property is marital and which is separate. Separate property is property owned before marriage, inherited property and gifts. Separate property used to purchase jointly held real estate becomes marital property."

The above is similar to the laws in our state. IF I buy a home before I marry, it is mine. IF I marry, it does NOT automatically become my husband's. IF I marry, then sell my home while I am married, AND THEN take the proceeds of the sale and put them into another home purchased by both my husband and myself, THEN my separate money has now become community property (to be split evenly if we ever divorce.) EVEN IF my husband didn't put one penny into the house we buy together, I must STILL count on splitting what "I owned separately and previously" with him later and the moment I put it into a community property. Now...I don't think I am wrong on this, but someone could sure check me on it.

Again...I don't know how this goes in Oregon.

Some states will look at it like this: Legally, Kaine does not OWN the property, the bank or mortgage company does. If the home was purchased shortly before they married, and if Terri worked at all, and contributed to their income, then technically she is entitled to a portion of the property because payments were made on it while they were married. In most states, money earned is equally divided, in spite of one partner making more than the other. I don't work now, but my husband's income is half mine, according to the law in our state.

 

[WholeLottaRosie]

Thanks for responding Rosie. Wow...that is HUGELY interesting. Hmmm... In this state (CA), to my knowledge (maybe someone can correct me if I am wrong), if someone buys a home with their money before their marriage, it is THEIR home unless and until they make it community property by adding the other person's name to the title. I'm not sure that would rule out a marriage partner getting a portion of an increase in equity over a course of time but... I dunno.

When I married DH, my attorney told me to have my name added to the quit claim deed, which was done, but, he (attorney) also said it didn't really matter in IL, if the marital home, I had automatic rights as soon as wed.

If we divorced, that doesn't mean I would get the house, it means I would have a claim on it, I could stay if I paid his half of equity, or vice versa. And it gives me marital claim on it if he died (with out a will).

But, it means it is as much mine as it is his, even if I am not on the mortgage.
Since we have never refinanced, I am not on the mortgage.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Hello Carole,

OT...but maybe important...

I just read something here:
http://www.divorcenet.com/states/north_carolina/ncfaq_09

It states:

"The first step in the process is 'identification'. The court must determine which property is marital and which is separate. Separate property is property owned before marriage, inherited property and gifts. Separate property used to purchase jointly held real estate becomes marital property."

The above is similar to the laws in our state. IF I buy a home before I marry, it is mine. IF I marry, it does NOT automatically become my husband's. IF I marry, then sell my home while I am married, AND THEN take the proceeds of the sale and put them into another home purchased by both my husband and myself, THEN my separate money has now become community property (to be split evenly if we ever divorce.) EVEN IF my husband didn't put one penny into the house we buy together, I must STILL count on splitting what "I owned separately and previously" with him later and the moment I put it into a community property. Now...I don't think I am wrong on this, but someone could sure check me on it.

Again...I don't know how this goes in Oregon.

I wonder how the courts would decide marital property in the case of a house that was bought with no money down (usually done via two mortgages), say two months before the marriage. And then the marriage lasted five years.

In such a case, the original owner would have put in two months' of equity at the time of marriage.

After the marriage, equity would have accrued for another 60 months.

Would the court still rule that the house was individually owned and not part of the marital assets?

 

[GrainneDhu]

Some states will look at it like this: Legally, Kaine does not OWN the property, the bank or mortgage company does. If the home was purchased shortly before they married, and if Terri worked at all, and contributed to their income, then technically she is entitled to a portion of the property because payments were made on it while they were married. In most states, money earned is equally divided, in spite of one partner making more than the other. I don't work now, but my husband's income is half mine, according to the law in our state.

Same in Iowa and Minnesota: each spouse's income during the marriage is considered community property. Even if one spouse does not work outside the home, the assumption is that the work of maintaining a home, raising children, etc, benefits the income earning spouse.

 

[Wrinkles]

Oh Wrinkles....
I didn't even think about how awful it must feel to have to be "away" from Kyrons "stuff". I am very sentimental (my DD says packrat) and frequently take comfort in touching the things that my lost loved ones have left behind. It must be horribly painful for Kaine to have left so much of Kyron there~ his belongings, memories, and his spirit.

Hi Nursey,

It dawned on me that we have since learned that Terri was with the police on Saturday (cooperating.) While she was away, I wonder if Kaine went in and made just a minimum move OR whether he packed up all of the children's things, as well as his. One way or another, his heart must really be aching in the midst of all of this. In the midst of his grieving (missing son, end of marriage), he could be getting very angry as well. I hope he has a counselor to help him.

In dealing with people who have lost children suddenly, I have learned that many of them leave their children's rooms precisely as they were until they can eventually cope with packing it up, or getting rid of things. One parent was embarrassed to tell me how long the room had been left untouched. I could certainly not judge this parent's actions, not having lost a child suddenly AND particularly unde the circumstances that I knew their child had passed.

But...back on thread... I'm still scratching my head about Terry continuing to live in the house. On the other hand, I suppose it is possible that she has moved by now. I would still be curious to see the estate of Kyron's room and the house when she does move.

 

[AbbieNormal]

Hi Calliope,

I'm not sure I understand the "mandatory relief" portion, per what is written, but your question of "Did the judge choose to ignore what's listed to be mandatory relief?" is good. IF the mandatory relief means that IF the other person is NOT the named owner they must move out -- then maybe there is a reason TH is continuing to live there. Could it be like a 30 day notice?

Sure wonder how she is going to make the house payments, having no job and all....so if she doesn't make the payments and loses it, doesn't that mess up Kaines credit? That ain't cool!!!!

 

[txsvicki]

Terri really hasn't had much time to move or do anything. She has no job, maybe not much money, so she probably won't want to spend any extra right now. Kaine may go ahead and make the mortgage payments if he has good credit, but I wonder if he could be made to provide her some support even though he has a RO? Terri may also have been told not to leave town by LE, and as far as bugs in the house, she's not saying anything anyway. If she did it, no one else probably knows so there's no reason to be talking. It would be interesting to know if she has called the yard guy though.

 

[scotslass]

I honestly think If I were KH, i would not have worried about TH staying in the home all that would have been on my mind was getting myself and my daughter out of there after learning about the murder for hire plot... Plus i'm more than sure i'd be the one leaving as there would be no way in hell i'd want her to know where i was. I think all the other details like KH belongings etc would hit me after the whole thing had processed (RO etc).

As for TH why would she move? LE, the press and this whole situation will just follow her there is no getting away from it at this point.

This does lead me to my question though....

Is there also a possibility that LE could have instructed TH to remain at that address even though she has not been named a suspect or charged?

(oh and where i live it doesn't matter who leaves, who's name is on the deeds the marital home gets split 50/50 upon sale, although the person with custody of the children usually has the right to stay in the home until the sale takes place for stability of the children)

Just praying that somehow all of these crazy events help in someway to find Kyron and bring him home safely.

 

[CaringCitizen]

Why stay at the family home?...So, do I invite my parents to my home to give me emotional support, or do I go stay with them? If I leave my home, could it be invaded by my spouse -- they come in and strip me of whatever they want or move back in and I could be out -- afterall, they have an RO against me?Catch 22?

Seems one very compelling reason to stay would be to avoid more detailed searches of the house right now - with Kaine as chaperone to the police. While LE was there for quite a while and they have 'searched' to the degree allowed, I doubt seriously they were able to turn the house upside down, looking for every piece of possible evidence.

She may have some things that she needs to look for and/or destroy. Examples could be notes she has written, letters/cards she has received, imprints on notepads where a page has been turn off and thrown away, etc).

For as long as they don't have a warrant, she can stand her ground there and possible destroy some things she would rather not ever be discovered. We know this doesn't always work, but a heck of a lot of people try!

If she vacates, Kaine can take over now and swing the doors wide open.

 

[sofia76]

Sure wonder how she is going to make the house payments, having no job and all....so if she doesn't make the payments and loses it, doesn't that mess up Kaines credit? That ain't cool!!!!

I would imagine that Kaine is still going to make house payments. Just because he is not living there at the moment doesn't mean he doesn't intend to keep his home.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Sure wonder how she is going to make the house payments, having no job and all....so if she doesn't make the payments and loses it, doesn't that mess up Kaines credit? That ain't cool!!!!

The bank holding the mortgage note(s) doesn't care who is who or what is what in such cases. All the bank cares about is getting their payments in a timely manner.

Until there is a legal settlement, whoever's name is on the mortgage is responsible for the payments. One assumes that it is KH's name, since he's reported to have bought the house just prior to his marriage to TMH.

If there is some unfairness incurred in the time period between when he filed for divorce and when the divorce and settlement are adjudicated, it is up to his lawyer to make sure that information is included for the judge to consider.

 

[Charlie09]

I wonder how the courts would decide marital property in the case of a house that was bought with no money down (usually done via two mortgages), say two months before the marriage. And then the marriage lasted five years.

In such a case, the original owner would have put in two months' of equity at the time of marriage.

After the marriage, equity would have accrued for another 60 months.

Would the court still rule that the house was individually owned and not part of the marital assets?

Here's something else to consider. Background - My dad died 5 years ago in Oregon - he and my mom were married. My mom knew better, but didn't know the financial situation that my dad had going on, and she couldn't keep everything going without his income.

She sought legal advice and apparently Oregon is the only state this is the law. (Or was the law five years ago.) If she wasn't on the actual account, she had no responsibility to pay it off. She was on the house, the car, and a couple of dept stores. Those she took care of, the other ones her attorney sent a letter, included the death certificate and that was that.

I have not given Terri credit for being smart - and unless there's an accomplice, I still wonder how all this happened. But you can get insurance on loans/credit situation that will pay off the amount due in case of loss of life or income.

If Kaine didn't know about the landscaper, could that mean she took care of the household finances?

My head is spinning with all the possibilities, and it could still turn out to be a kidnapping that exposes all sorts of family secrets unintentionally.

 

[Forensic fan]

Seems one very compelling reason to stay would be to avoid more detailed searches of the house right now - with Kaine as chaperone to the police. While LE was there for quite a while and they have 'searched' to the degree allowed, I doubt seriously they were able to turn the house upside down, looking for every piece of possible evidence.

She may have some things that she needs to look for and/or destroy. Examples could be notes she has written, letters/cards she has received, imprints on notepads where a page has been turn off and thrown away, etc).

For as long as they don't have a warrant, she can stand her ground there and possible destroy some things she would rather not ever be discovered. We know this doesn't always work, but a heck of a lot of people try!

If she vacates, Kaine can take over now and swing the doors wide open.

BBM

I hope LE is looking through the bags of trash she puts out.

 

[passionflower]

I agree with keeping TH in 1 place so LE can keep a good eye on her.
I bet the house is bugged, garbage looked at, surveilance, phones bugged
and anything that can lead them to KYRON!!!
I'm thinking her days of freedom are very limited now.
Are her parents still living there???
Just imagine she has to live with seeing her children's items there daily and not
seeing them. Hope she is haunted by this. JMOO

 

[Zoe Bogart]

Every state is different, and all community property states are different from each other. I remember when California had some very tough community property laws. Many movie stars went bankrupt with all their marriages because Cal.'s community property law meant EVERYTHING became community property. Don't know what the laws are now. Maybe it's been changed because divorcing movie stars haven't complained about that in ages to my knowledge.

My state is a community property state. That doesn't mean MY house (not mortgaged) would become half my husband's. It's MY house. Now, if we were paying a mortgage on MY house, he would be entitled to half equity of what was paid during our marriage.

Some states used to claim everything belonged to the husband, even if it was owned by the wife before marriage. Don't know if that still happens. Some states say what's hers before marriage is hers after marriage. What's his before marriage is his after marriage. Most couples share or don't as they please, until it's time for divorce. Ouch!

I have no idea if Kaine's house was mortgaged or fully paid for.

 

[GrainneDhu]

BBM

I hope LE is looking through the bags of trash she puts out.

Do they have trash service out there?

I live out in the country, so far out that you have to take a gravel road to get to the gravel road I live on. We don't have trash service; we have a burn barrel and burn everything. When the barrel is cool, my husband dumps the ashes into a regular garbage can. When the ash cans are all full, he hauls them to the county landfill; this amounts to about once every six weeks.

Our plastic and glass recyclables we save and drop off in town whenever we make a store run.

It's more complicated than just living where you can put plastic trash bags on the curb once a week but to us it is worth it. We love country living.

If the Hormans have a burn barrel, I can imagine the feelings of LE every time she has a burn.

 

[jessigirl]

No, but it is that way in a lot of states. I don't know about Oregon.

carole, its that way here in Tennessee,too. After you're married its "OURS", same as there in the Carolinas...

 

[Haeve]

Do they have trash service out there?

I live out in the country, so far out that you have to take a gravel road to get to the gravel road I live on. We don't have trash service; we have a burn barrel and burn everything. When the barrel is cool, my husband dumps the ashes into a regular garbage can. When the ash cans are all full, he hauls them to the county landfill; this amounts to about once every six weeks.

Our plastic and glass recyclables we save and drop off in town whenever we make a store run.

It's more complicated than just living where you can put plastic trash bags on the curb once a week but to us it is worth it. We love country living.

If the Hormans have a burn barrel, I can imagine the feelings of LE every time she has a burn.

Hopefully an actual local can chime in (I live in Oregon but not Portland), but as I've said before, the NW Skyline area is described as "rural" but it's relative in this densly populated urban area. IMO, it's not really "out in the country" but it is outside the city limits of Portland, hence the involvement of MCSO vs. PPD. I tried to find some information on garbage service out there, and didn't find anything, but I do see there are a lot of luxury homes in that area. I'm probably being classist, but I would think owners of luxury homes don't haul their own garbage and that garbage service is available. Note that the Hormans have a more modest home.

Here's the description I found (BBM):

"Northwest Skyline is an area that runs all along Skyline Blvd. in the NW Hills. The eastside boundary runs along Forest Park. As Skyline connects with Cornelius Pass Road; which leads into Hillsboro, there are areas with 1-2 acre estates along the way.

Most of the area is a 20-30 minute commute to either downtown or the high tech area but Skyline is a winding 2 lane road. Cyclists love this area and on week-ends you really need to be watchful of cyclists and hikers. Some of the developments are close to Forest Park and thus quite lush and full of trees, while other developments along the ridge of the hills are more open."

ETA: As far as I can tell (didn't actually check a map), it looks like opening burning is banned in that area. Complicated boundaries can be found here: http://arcweb.sos.state.or.us/rules/OARs_300/OAR_340/340_264.html

I also found a garbage hauler that serves "suburban NW Portland" though I couldn't find exact boundaries.