Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #2

[Bartholemeus]

Sorry to muddy the waters, but are we certain that Judoman is the martial arts expert they were referring to as a suspect in the CIA documentary? Could he have been identified as someone who knows at least one of the victims and a different martial arts expert, with him being used to test the reaction of this different suspect?

The martial arts expert is said to have been living alone at the time of the attacks, but Judoman is married and has children- one of whom must have been born around the time of the attacks. Not all couples live together- maybe he wasnt living with his pregnant partner, but he was not a naive teenager- he was a highly successful buisness man, with a wide social circle, a demanding job and an active sporting life.

My understanding is he got married and had kids after the killings but this is unconfirmed. Can anyone confirm this either way?

The CIA episode was a strategy operation produced by Jim Stanbury and the team investigating the killings. There's little doubt the police planned and strategised what was to be said and how it was to be delivered. The content and script wasn't devised by the TV Network potentially involving sloppy journalism and artist licence. It was a carefully plotted script by the police.

On the show they interviewed a man who worked with SS and had met JR once. Here he was on the show making comment on JR. They could have had her parents, brother or other close friends besides Ms Donovan. Even if they need some filler it just doesn't make sense to have a guy who has met her once to make comment.

At the end of the show Leibman introduces two new suspects, one a wealthy martial arts expert. If we Google this man we soon learn he is an expert at Judo.

The odds of this being coincidental and it being another bloke they are talking about is remote.

 

[Sutton]

Sorry to muddy the waters, but are we certain that Judoman is the martial arts expert they were referring to as a suspect in the CIA documentary? Could he have been identified as someone who knows at least one of the victims and a different martial arts expert, with him being used to test the reaction of this different suspect?

The martial arts expert is said to have been living alone at the time of the attacks, but Judoman is married and has children- one of whom must have been born around the time of the attacks. Not all couples live together- maybe he wasnt living with his pregnant partner, but he was not a naive teenager- he was a highly successful buisness man, with a wide social circle, a demanding job and an active sporting life.

They are one and the same, IMO. Maybe someone will post proof of that, but I doubt it bc of TOS.

 

[Sutton]

...c. The van. As far as we know SR din't have a van. If you've got a taxi and a legit way to get women into your car, why use a van and have to p1ss about with an abduction from outside your car?...

Snipped. White vans are implicated in ~90% of abductions (based on personal estimations, not actual data). They should be outlawed ;-)

 

[Bartholemeus]

Whenever I see a white Beddie I immediately think "rapist". I think Ford should bring out a new line of vans called Ford Rapey.

 

[crabstick]

The other 10% is white Ford Falcon station wagons?

I think I read somewhere, white was the most popular vehicle colour purchased, then grey. I dare say, criminals would then move to grey vans.

Snipped. White vans are implicated in ~90% of abductions (based on personal estimations, not actual data). They should be outlawed ;-)

I cant remember the last time I saw one. I knew someone who owned one. Ironically he owned a security business, but it is not him. And he was not a rapist.

If only they would release what sort of van it was. At the time, Ford Econovan was the most popular?

If the 17 year old got away, wouldn't they have DNA? So if they have DNA from the rape victim, and presuming along the lines that users vehemently deny they do have DNA from Ciara, but they are forensically linked.

They will have DNA of the person who raped the 17 year old, so they will have DNA of the Ciaras killer.

Hence, they are swabbing everyone Bazzzzinga!

Whenever I see a white Beddie I immediately think "rapist". I think Ford should bring out a new line of vans called Ford Rapey.

 

[Mel 1303]

We dont know that they have dna. The original story, in the Post, said that police had forensic evidence. They did not say DNA. When the Post's Brett Christian was interviewed on radio, he again said forensic evidence. Might be dna, but might be something else. The girl in Karrakatta was released without her clothes, but were her hands still bound? If there were still bindings on that girl, and bindings on CG, they may have been able to prove that the cord came from the same roll, or something like that. A rapist doesnt always leave dna evidence.

This is not a new breakthrough- it is only new to us. The police made this connection in 2009.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Re DNA

There are 4 possibilities;

1. LE have both Karakatta and CSK DNA (from CG)
2. LE have Karakatta DNA but not CSK DNA
3. LE have CSK DNA but not Karakatta DNA
4. LE have neither.

Then if we bring other forensics into it then the amount of options are exponential.



You'd think they have Karakatta DNA. She went straight to hospital staffed by people who know how to deal with emergencies and know who to contact. She should have been given an examination within a short time period. At the very least there would have been fibre transfer and hopefully DNA - pubic hair, sweat, saliva, semen etc.

If they had DNA from Karakatta then you' assume they compared this to LW. SR, PW etc and didn't get a match. I wonder if they did this early on and hence the reason they moved away from Karakatta being linked - as in "LW isn't Karakatta man so let's stop investigating it".

** It's possible of course police were blase about the rape and didn't do a thorough examination or one at all.

 

[crabstick]

The 17 year old ran into Hollywood hospital shouting abduction, violent rape!!! Possibly bound with telephone cable according Billy Whizz by the sound of it. Although I wouldn't take his word for it. The hospital would take it deadly serious with procedures in place. The hospital has an obligation. Police don't do the DNA kit.

Re DNA

There are 4 possibilities;

1. LE have both Karakatta and CSK DNA (from CG)
2. LE have Karakatta DNA but not CSK DNA
3. LE have CSK DNA but not Karakatta DNA
4. LE have neither.

Then if we bring other forensics into it then the amount of options are exponential.



You'd think they have Karakatta DNA. She went straight to hospital staffed by people who know how to deal with emergencies and know who to contact. She should have been given an examination within a short time period. At the very least there would have been fibre transfer and hopefully DNA - pubic hair, sweat, saliva, semen etc.

If they had DNA from Karakatta then you' assume they compared this to LW. SR, PW etc and didn't get a match. I wonder if they did this early on and hence the reason they moved away from Karakatta being linked - as in "LW isn't Karakatta man so let's stop investigating it".

** It's possible of course police were blase about the rape and didn't do a thorough examination or one at all.

 

[north_west]

Forensic examination
A forensic examination can be undertaken by the SARC doctor. This is an important way of collecting evidence of a sexual assault to be used in future court proceedings if you report the assault to the police. The aim of the examination is to collect and document evidence. It may include:

Taking a history of the assault
Documenting your general health
Collecting samples of physical evidence such as taking swabs for DNA
Taking photographs of injuries or bruises (photographs are not taken of the genital area)
Collecting clothing worn when the assault occurred
Writing a medico-legal report on your physical condition

In most cases a forensic examination is undertaken within hours of SARC being contacted. Although DNA can still be found 7-10 days after an assault, the sooner you come to SARC the better, as this will enable collection of the best evidence.

In regional areas, SARC forensic kits are used by doctors or specially trained nurses to collect forensic evidence on your behalf.

http://www.kemh.health.wa.gov.au/services/sarc/have_you.htm

 

[Bartholemeus]

The have to have Karakatta man's DNA don't they?

 

[crabstick]

The interesting thing is. They were still collecting DNA up even only 12 months ago.

That's a lot of effort if they didn't have DNA. 2 decades of DNA collection when you don't have any.

Knock knock, who's there!

The have to have Karakatta man's DNA don't they?

The 17 year old violent rape victim would now be 37?

 

[Sutton]

It just makes me wonder...who rapes someone in a graveyard? Someone who either worked there or lived near there? You'd have to feel reasonably comfortable about driving in there at night. I mean, you can bump into some "unusual" people in graveyards at night...I assume...witches, satanists, druids? A graveyard at night at least has the possibility of some level of activity. While generally bushland does not...

RSBM. A cemetery might add to the excitement for a developing serial killer. Ted Bundy, Gary Ridgeway, Arthur Shawcross all engaged in necrophilia.

Lust murderers can also be distinguished from other sex related homicide offenders by their involvement in necrophilia.

http://www.practicalhomicide.com/Research/lustmurder.htm

Older article, but still informative.

You are probably right though that he lived or worked nearby.

 

[Mel 1303]

In a violent rape that occurred today, in 2015, the amount of forensic evidence that could be collected is different to what they would have looked for 20 years ago. It was 1995 that OJ Simpson got off (in part) because people weren't convinced of the reliability of dna from blood samples. Rape kits are fairly standard practice today, but were they then? I am asking, rather than stating- I dont know. They may well have dna from the Karrakatta attack- I have no inside information.

 

[Bartholemeus]

In a violent rape that occurred today, in 2015, the amount of forensic evidence that could be collected is different to what they would have looked for 20 years ago. It was 1995 that OJ Simpson got off (in part) because people weren't convinced of the reliability of dna from blood samples. Rape kits are fairly standard practice today, but were they then? I am asking, rather than stating- I dont know. They may well have dna from the Karrakatta attack- I have no inside information.

DNA was well known by police back then but apart from that my understanding is that even before DNA was around standard evidence collecting procedures allowed DNA to be preserved.

The only reason they wouldn't have DNA is police treating the rape with a complete lack of respect in collecting evidence or they lost the evidence.

So if they have the Karakatta DNA then they would have compared it to LW, PW, SR and you'd think Judoman years ago. If it's true they have linked Karakatta to the CSK through some sort of forensic evidence then they have to rule all these suspects out.

There was an unconfirmed rumour about a suspect who worked for Telecom (Now Telstra) who had unlogged access to Telecom vehicles, was reported to be offering girls lifts in the area and had been frequenting Conti and Club.

I wonder if this guy has been ruled out (if he exists). Certainly had access to telephone cable.

 

[GreenDevil]

They 100% have DNA from the Karrakatta sexual assault. Even if they have a match for DNA from any of the Persons of Interest regarding the Claremont murders, with the Karrakatta offence, it doesn't mean they have enough evidence to lay charges for the Claremont murders.

This event confirms that they already know who they CSK is, now they are just working on obtaining that extra piece of evidence (which is what they've been doing for last 17 years).

 

[Sutton]

...In 1995 a young woman got into a taxi in Claremont and the driver drove her to the other side of the railway line to the golf course...

RSBM. Anyone know where this is? Name of golf course or your best guess at a street?

 

[Bartholemeus]

Lake Claremont Golf Course

My best guess is Stirling Rd (yes, it's the same Stirling Rd). Drive to the end and there's a culdesac near the lake. You can walk through to the first hole on the par 3 course from there. Not a lot of houses and not too far to drive.

 

[bessie]

ADMIN NOTE: I will not spend one more minute editing posts by members who refuse to behave like responsible adults. Posts containing rude remarks have been removed entirely. If the context of the discussion has been affected, that's on you, not me.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Lake Claremont Golf Course

My best guess is Stirling Rd (yes, it's the same Stirling Rd). Drive to the end and there's a culdesac near the lake. You can walk through to the first hole on the par 3 course from there. Not a lot of houses and not too far to drive.

There's the Claremont Pool/Davies Rd Pool car park that is right next to the par 3 course but a high fence

separates them and there is no access so this has to be ruled out.

He could have driven down Lapsley to the club house. Pretty sure you can walk straight onto the gold course from

there.

Then there's Henshaw Lane and Lakeway St. Too housey for me and too risky.

 

[elastic]

They have ruled out both Lance Williams and Peter Wegers from the reports, who they specifically have not mentioned or ruled out is our Judoman who appeared in the documentary. He has specifically not been ruled out, how ever we are hearing in reports that they beleive Blitz attack, he is looking like the main suspect right now.

Who else was a major suspect in the documentary at the time?

Who is a major suspect other than Judoman now? Donald Morey, people are saying he can't be the CSK, what proof has anyone ever put forward EVER to suggest he was not in the state killing at the time, he is obviously the man Con Bayens is refering too, Highgate was Moreys hunting ground. And if Lisa Brown was Moreys kill then it happened straight after the CSK killings and looks to have changed his MO with the heat.

We know serial killers change their MO's even Richard Dorrough tried to run a person down, ALso obviously Perths famous Eric Edgar Cooke who killed in many different ways. I dont buy this serial kiler is stupid enough to only kill in one place and in one way. I think he has easy hunting grounds and just so happened to hunt in claremont for a few years until the heat was on.

Amazing the police bungled the Karakata rape investigation and refused to follow the FBI's advice, reeks of keystone cops..