CO- Dylan Redwine, 13, Vallecito, 19 November 2012 - #49

[azgrandma]

BBM according to CBI's website, there are 6 unsolved missing adults in all of LaPlata County since 1972, 1 unsolved missing child - Dylan.

I needed to correct my post above. According to CBI website, there are 6 unsolved homicides and 3 unsolved (adult) missing cases. I knew it was 3 & 6 and was going off memory this morning - obviously not enough coffee at that time of my post.

It's interesting that of the three unsolved cases, the last one was 11/14/10 a 57 yo male that was headed off to hitch-hike for Durango to Montana, IMO if that were the case, he wouldn't be headed towards the lake.
The other two cases are from 1988 and 1987 - one of them, they know the DOB but not the gender? How can that be possible?

I'm not sure if HRD dogs can smell decomp in the lake after 25 yrs. It would be interesting to find out though, sure would help with the process of elimination. Either way IMO, if the dogs hit that many times in the same area, there is someone there and it's going to bring closure to some family. Perhaps the unknown gender persons gender will be known (how odd is that!)

 

[Bayou Mistress]

Thank you for the articles. I'm just wondering how these dogs that are specially trained to search for historical remains can detect anything that has been not only buried for hundreds of years, but covered by a reservoir for over 50 yrs as well.

I'm no expert but have the following anecdotal observations. My two pet dogs have dug up bones (assumed to be buried by the previous pets lived here) in my yard. Those bones are preferable to my pets over the frisbee and tennis balls that are also present in the yard. The fact that my pet dogs found old bones (cow, they look like) tells me that a trained dog would most certainly be able to detect the scent many years later and that an odor does emanate from old bones. Bones decomposed much slower than soft tissue and clearly the smell is not discernable to humans but is to the keen nose of a dog. The scent of human bones decomposing even underwater does not seem out of the realm of dog abilities.

 

[Emma Ems]

Thank you for the articles. I'm just wondering how these dogs that are specially trained to search for historical remains can detect anything that has been not only buried for hundreds of years, but covered by a reservoir for over 50 yrs as well.

IMO the same way an average HRD dog does. This is the thing too...some dogs smell the air for the rising scent particles, and some search nose down for scent particles. Scent particles can become trapped in things, like carpet, by being absorbed into them. The water search dogs smell scent molecules(gas) that rises and breaks the water surface into the air, and liquids that the body releases that rise to the surface of the water.

I can only tell you what I believe, it would take a real scientist to say if this is all possible, but if HHRD are looking specifically for the odor put out by bones right? Then the bones must seem to always put out an odor. Otherwise, why even train a dog to try to find historical grave sites in the first place? The thing about historical grave sites is usually they are located very deep as environmental changes are usually what causes them to be deeper(sandstorms, mudslides, etc) But I think that if there was a grave site below the lake it's possible that some of the scent molecules were released, they were brought up HIGHER than what they were originally, etc. Then again I bring up the bone. If the bones are now higher than before, and they still release a smell, and it's being raised up through the water, the dogs COULD be hitting on that. Don't forget to add in how sensitive the dog's nose is!!! It's just an opinion, and it if they don't seem to find the source of these dogs hits, I would say it's probably the most plausible one by far. It's definitely way better than all of the dogs being wrong and the scent being Dylan or anyone else that may have been killed.

 

[raine1212]

MR top of my list due to the first and earliest reports in the news that he was seen with Dylan at thee reservoir. I dk who ID them or what possible witness they have but those were the reports. I always go by the earliest reports in a case. This was stated as fact in the news.

Hi Cherry, Do you have a link? I am interested in that news report TIA

 

[The Cheese]

Maybe some of the remains aren't quite under the reservoir, but under the land around the lake as well. The dogs hit on the shore, the land, on both the south and mid-east sides of the lake. On the mid-east side, the hits were 12 feet from the water.

How would a body in the water account for those land hits? This is one of the things that keeps me unsure that the cause of the hits is a body in the water - the land hits in two separate and distant areas.

I thought maybe dragging a body on land to the water and then disposing in the water, but I can't think of why someone would drag a body on the south end of the lake, and then pick up and carry or drive the body to the mid-east section of the lake, drag it some more, and then dispose of it in the water. Why would someone risk being seen that way?

And are these the only two land hits? There have been 16 searches by LE, and now this extensive search by Elaine's Illinois dog team and Vreeland/Cayenne. And where did Wendy's dogs hit? Land or water? One of the areas or different?

Not asking these questions of anyone. Just thinking out loud, voicing my questions. I really hope LE puts out a press release soon, or does a media interview, and explains their assessment of the situation. I'm not expecting it real soon though, because I think this is going to take some time to assess what they have, and come up with a plan to deal with it.

As far as dogs scenting on ancient bones, a while back I posted a link to K-9 Forensics Facebook where one of Wendy's dogs found a 1200 or 1300 year old bone. IIRC she had her dogs there to find old remains. IIRC she'd been asked to bring her dogs out to find multiple old human remains because they were excavating there. I'll see if I can find the link again.

ETA Here's one of the posts about it. 1300 years old

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...409404.-2207520000.1366992960.&type=3&theater

 

[mixologist74]

BBM


Just wanted to bump this question, as thanks to insomnia I tend to post in the middle of the night, but what man are we talking about? Is it a verified LE person? I've been catching up, and I noticed that a lot of statements about LE procedure followed this one, so I'm curious if we have an actual police officer here. If so, I wonder if it would be possible to him to be verified and participate directly? That would be excellent! IMO.

Thanks.

My fiance is in LE. No, he will not post here, so verifying him is impossible. I do, however, ask him things about police procedure, as it relates to certain things, and he is very knowledgeable. He should be. He's got 2 associates and a bachelor degree in criminal justice and criminal justice administration.

 

[Emma Ems]

I needed to correct my post above. According to CBI website, there are 6 unsolved homicides and 3 unsolved (adult) missing cases. I knew it was 3 & 6 and was going off memory this morning - obviously not enough coffee at that time of my post.

It's interesting that of the three unsolved cases, the last one was 11/14/10 a 57 yo male that was headed off to hitch-hike for Durango to Montana, IMO if that were the case, he wouldn't be headed towards the lake.
The other two cases are from 1988 and 1987 - one of them, they know the DOB but not the gender? How can that be possible?

I'm not sure if HRD dogs can smell decomp in the lake after 25 yrs. It would be interesting to find out though, sure would help with the process of elimination. Either way IMO, if the dogs hit that many times in the same area, there is someone there and it's going to bring closure to some family. Perhaps the unknown gender persons gender will be known (how odd is that!)

The thing that gets me is THAT many hits(not counting the ones we are unaware of.) My understanding is the dogs should first get a whiff of the scent, track it and try to lead the handler and boat driver to where the scent source is the strongest BEFORE they alert. If you have a strong scent source on one end of the lake, then the other end of the lake, and again on another opposite side of the like that should be 4 different source points if you listen to what the handlers say about what their dogs should be doing. In that case it leads me to question this: How many bodies ARE out there? Or, like Bayou stated, as sick as it is, is the body out there cut up into a lot of little pieces? Let's just say there are 4 hits(just an example) on each side of the lake(N,S,E,W) that should mean there are 4 bodies out there(if there are bodies that are intact) and if there are 4 that are in that lake, I mentioned earlier about a serial killer, that's probably what is going on...a serial killer is using THAT lake as his dumping grounds. If it is one body that has been dismembered, then there HAS to be a crime scene somewhere as that would leave a big forensic mess. Again this is the conclusion I draw mainly from what dogs SHOULD do when finding a scent, which is basically catch a whiff, follow it until it's at it's strongest point. Redhead mentioned current and wind, the handlers SHOULD be trained to adjust for that in their assessment of where the dogs alert. Let's say the 4 hits are the strongest points, meaning and they are at each side like I said, then that would tell you that the body you are looking for is somewhere in between all those hits(though the sources should a bit closer in proximity-you would think) in the middle of the lake. If you recall the picture of where they had buoys marking three alerts in November, you see those were kind of close together in like a triangle, your scent source should be somewhere in that triangle. I have to run out, but I can try to link the picture for you later when I get back, but I think of it like a sno-cone, your source is at the bottom of the cone and the wafting drifts upward like the top of the cone. If that helps at all.

 

[*Lash*]

From FMDR - Cory Redwine during the search.

These pictures are a reminder, this is REAL. This is Cory's reality.



https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...7820264.144727.555378941155380&type=1&theater

 

[*Lash*]

From FMDR - Elaine during the search.

These pictures are a reminder, this is REAL. This is Elaine's reality.



https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...7820264.144727.555378941155380&type=1&theater

 

[aust amateur slueth]

I just want to say a few things, so in no particular order

1. I would like Dylan to be found alive and safe, but I am also a realist so cannot ignore the chances of that happening are very slim.

2. LE do not generally name a POI or suspect these days unless an arrest is imminent. LE have not cleared MR, in fact they refuted his claim about the polygrapher not being competent and they refuted his claim that he reported Dylan missing to the Marshals office, IMO they as good as called him a liar, so that then begs the question why would he lie if he had no involvement in Dylans disappearance?

3. I'm not 'convinced' about MRs guilt, I'm very highly suspicious of him for a number of reasons that I am unable to ignore. I look at what facts we know along with possibility, probability plausability and behaviour.

4. LE have given absolutely no indication at all that there is any sort of link between Dylans disappearance and sutters arrest. IF LE indicate at a later point that there is a connection then I will take it into consideration at that point in time, until then it has no bearing on Dylans case IMO.

5. I don't believe that all of the dogs could be wrong. the odds of that are astronomical.

6. I don't believe that theres some ancient burial ground under the lake, we've not heard this from any locals, from any media and not from any historians, if I am incorrect and there is evidence that it was once a burial ground then can someone please provide links to that evidence, <modsnip>.

 

[rebeccaeee]

I just want to say a few things, so in no particular order

1. I would like Dylan to be found alive and safe, but I am also a realist so cannot ignore the chances of that happening are very slim.

2. LE do not generally name a POI or suspect these days unless an arrest is imminent. LE have not cleared MR, in fact they refuted his claim about the polygrapher not being competent and they refuted his claim that he reported Dylan missing to the Marshals office, IMO they as good as called him a liar, so that then begs the question why would he lie if he had no involvement in Dylans disappearance?

3. I'm not 'convinced' about MRs guilt, I'm very highly suspicious of him for a number of reasons that I am unable to ignore. I look at what facts we know along with possibility, probability plausability and behaviour.

4. LE have given absolutely no indication at all that there is any sort of link between Dylans disappearance and sutters arrest. IF LE indicate at a later point that there is a connection then I will take it into consideration at that point in time, until then it has no bearing on Dylans case IMO.

5. I don't believe that all of the dogs could be wrong. the odds of that are astronomical.

6. I don't believe that theres some ancient burial ground under the lake, we've not heard this from any locals, from any media and not from any historians, if I am incorrect and there is evidence that it was once a burial ground then can someone please provide links to that evidence, <modsnip>.

Loved your post but wanted to offer specific comment about the ground beneath the lake. For those interested in researching construction of the Dam, please visit http://swcenter.fortlewis.edu/inventory/PineRiver.htm The Center for Southwest Studies at Fort Lewis has an extensive historical record of the area and, more specifically, construction of the dam.

 

[aust amateur slueth]

I'm no expert but have the following anecdotal observations. My two pet dogs have dug up bones (assumed to be buried by the previous pets lived here) in my yard. Those bones are preferable to my pets over the frisbee and tennis balls that are also present in the yard. The fact that my pet dogs found old bones (cow, they look like) tells me that a trained dog would most certainly be able to detect the scent many years later and that an odor does emanate from old bones. Bones decomposed much slower than soft tissue and clearly the smell is not discernable to humans but is to the keen nose of a dog. The scent of human bones decomposing even underwater does not seem out of the realm of dog abilities.

land and water are two totally different situations though IMO.

unless your dogs are prone to digging up bones in water?

 

[*Lash*]

The pictures above of Elaine and Cory are heartbreaking. You can see their pain. I am so sorry they are suffering what has to be one of the worst emotions a human being can feel. I am so sorry. Please God, let them find Dylan!

 

[Salem]

Sarx and Oriah have a question and answer thread for SAR work here: [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125709"]K9 SAR Questions & Answers - Ask the Pros! - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

If you don't already see your question asked and answered - then please post it and they will answer it as they have time.

Thanks,

Salem

 

[*Lash*]

Sarx posted today in Dylan's search thread.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201893&page=6

 

[aust amateur slueth]

Loved your post but wanted to offer specific comment about the ground beneath the lake. For those interested in researching construction of the Dam, please visit http://swcenter.fortlewis.edu/inventory/PineRiver.htm The Center for Southwest Studies at Fort Lewis has an extensive historical record of the area and, more specifically, construction of the dam.

thank you for your link, its quite interesting reading and just in case some don't check the link I think the following is important to note



As early as 1906, the development of the Vallecito Dam began with a need to supply the Pine River Valley with late season irrigation water. The project was transferred from the Indian Irrigation Service to the Bureau of Reclamation for construction in August 1936.

Bids for construction of Vallecito Dam were opened in Durango, Colorado, on December 15, 1937. The Martin Wunderlich Company of Jefferson City, Missouri, submitted the winning bid: $2,115,870. Clearing and stripping of the dam site began on May 14, 1937. Excavations ranged in depth from fifteen to fifty feet. Most of the work was completed by the end of 1938. Much of the material excavated from the channel was screened and used in the dam embankment.
On May 19, 1938, the Weston Lumber Company of Denver contracted with the government for the purchase and removal of all saleable lumber (an estimated five million board feet) from the Vallecito Reservoir site

 

[aust amateur slueth]

The pictures above of Elaine and Cory are heartbreaking. You can see their pain. I am so sorry they are suffering what has to be one of the worst emotions a human being can feel. I am so sorry. Please God, let them find Dylan!

their pain is devastating to see, hoping and praying that Dylan is found soon.

We should also consider that there are many other innocent victims that have had their lives changed by Dylans disappearance. there are all the other people who most people might not even realise are suffering, there is our own verified insider AZ, there are all Dylans other siblings, cousins, aunts, uncles, all the extended families and his friends and their families. The widespread effect on them all is going to effect them for life.

spare a thought for all of them too

 

[scorekeeper]

Sarx posted today in Dylan's search thread.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201893&page=6

I really do not know what to say about all the hits all over the lake and nothing to show for it...


Sarx post....

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9314271&postcount=126"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - CO - Dylan Redwine missing from Vallecito ***SEARCH DISCUSSION ONLY***[/ame]

 

[azgrandma]

I found these two resources and thought that it was pretty interesting that Cadaver dogs, human remain detection dogs and historical human remains detection dogs, although overlaps in training are certain, they are distinctively trained for their purpose. With that in mind, IMO, unless those dogs had their noses to the ground (which we saw in previous pictures that they were in a boat so it's impossible to be to the ground) and unless they are specifically trained HHRD, the likelihood of the dogs scenting on an ancient burial ground is impossible. I'm convinced from this information that the hits are not from any of our ancestors that took a Vallecito road trip years ago.

The Training Process
The training process includes imprinting the dog, adding a passive alert, and then increasing the difficulty of the problems. Most dogs used for historical search work have come from the specialized human remains detection dog, a dog that is specifically trained to only find human remains. These dogs are trained to locate very small amounts of scent and work closely with the handler. Controllability and the trained behavior to search with the nose down are key factors in finding historical artifacts or graves. All properly trained HRD dogs have been taught to preserve human remains; they are never allowed to pick up or dig up human remains. Because of our history in working modern crime scenes, we understand that preservation of evidence is of crucial importance.
The historical HRD dog has now been developed. The training of the historical HRD dog is very similar to the training that HRD dog receives, the difference being that emphasis is placed on old graves, bone, and teeth in an outdoor setting. The dogs are also taught how to search, with the handler, in a grid pattern. Scent discrimination is an important part of the training. Animal bones and teeth are introduced into the training as negatives, and the dog is taught to ignore them.

http://www.k9forensic.org/evolution.htm

Abstract
Canine training as an adjunct to fields such as archaeology and anthropology has advanced significantly over the past few years. Canines trained to locate human remains can be subdivided into three broad disciplines: cadaver dogs, human remain detection dogs, and historical human remains detection dogs. Although there are significant overlaps in the skills necessary for certification in these three disciplines, there are also distinct differences. Cadaver dogs are usually called upon to locate recently deceased individuals in missing person and law enforcement cases. Human remains detection dogs are more likely to be employed to locate human remains related evidence at a crime scene.
Historical human remains dogs are specially trained to locate very old human remains, and are most likely to be employed by archaeologists to locate old burials. http://www.k9forensic.org/sha-Bev.htm

 

[Redhead72]

I want to bring up this point real quick. My friend has a daughter who is diabetic. She got a Diabetic Alert Dog for her daughter. The dog is suppose to react to the scent of chemical changes in the body. Then you have the amazing animals, the ones in nursing homes, that seem to know when someone is about to pass and goes and lays with them as they are dying. Dogs can scent changes in the human body. If these smells are being emitted around us at all times I do feel like they can be deposited on any absorbent surface we touch. Which is how the decomp scent is transferred? Now there was a study I read about recently in which they said the corpses were less than 3 hours old, and had been deposited on carpet squares for 2 minutes, and then 10 minutes. In the study, it said the dogs were tested on the exposed carpet for 2 minutes for 35 days and they hit for 65 days on the square that had been exposed for 10 minutes. I read snippets from an article but I just found the document for the whole study. I also read a few articles on decomp as a process and it does state decomp begins the minute you die and that the cells within the body begin to break down. If chemical changes within the body release odors into the air that dogs can pick up as soon as they occur(like the diabetic alert dog) then why can't the same be said of an HRD dog?


http://www.pawsoflife.org/Library/HRD/Oesterhelweg 1998.pdf

That's the same study I was referring to about the cadaver being < 3 hours. I was also the one who mentioned the nursing home cat, and others being able to detect disease and such, so I'm well aware of those types of animals. However, they are trained specifically - such as the diabetic alert dog will smell the sugar in the blood, or on the breath. (My mom was a diabetic her whole life, so I'm quite familiar with that as well.)

The only thing that is up in the air is how long - exactly - does it take for the specific scents cadaver dogs smell to be exuded from the body.

There has never been a definitive study done that confirms that decomp gases and fluids are immediately present in quantities sufficient enough to transfer onto clothing and surfaces within a minute, two minutes after death, etc... No-one knows with scientific certainty how long that takes - it could be 3-5 minutes, it could be as long as 30 minutes for instance. There are many various factors that would affect how quickly the decomp process progresses as well - temperature, COD, etc...

To summarize -
There has never been a definitive study done of how quickly a cadaver will deposit a scent, and even if there had been one could only get an average amount of time necessary due to the variables associated with each specific decedent in the study. According to HRD handlers and experts there is a short period of time directly after death in which the scent is "confused" and the full cadaver scent has not fully developed. It is unknown the amount of time that must pass for all decedents to exude these chemicals in the concentrations necessary for the melange of scents that make up all of the decomposition gases and chemicals specific to human beings in order to be detected by an HRD dog.

[Note: The logistics of a study to determine these things would be virtually impossible to effectively manage unless you somehow had access to a very large amount of terminally ill people, and scientists waiting to pounce as soon as their hearts stopped... to carry out such a study ethically would not be possible, frankly.]

A quick side note about cadaverine... It is even present in living human beings. Cadaverine is made from the breakdown of proteins. There is also putrescine which is another product of decomp. HRD dogs "hit" on the specific scent associated with human decomposition with contains both of these chemicals. It also contains other chemicals that are specific to humans. I don't have time at this moment to find a reference for the complete list of chemicals that would make up the melange of scents I mentioned above, but here are two links:

Cadaverine - [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaverine"]Cadaverine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
Putrescine - [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Putrescine"]Putrescine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

What's important to remember, imo - is that these processes are not instantaneously present at the moment of death.

Hope that helps a bit...