CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #49 *ARREST*

[ilovechili]

I think you are correct! I'm sorry, I bet I took KB's age!

Not that it matters for most of the points you made. Other than it sounding like he was with a minor and while I do not defend him, I did not want it to take off nor for KK to sound so young and gullible

 

[ilovechili]

I thought possibly KK was involved (or could be involved) in some kind of fundraising activity and as part of her involvement, reached out to other volunteers and donations for the fundraiser - like PF might donate a farrier job. That would be an excuse, although a flimsy one, for her to reach out to PF.

They allegedly owned a horse together. PF and KB argued over money and CB understood PF's money issues to be the reason they hadn't gotten married. I suspect that the ownership of that horse was KK using her cash investment as an excuse to keep contact with PF - in short, using his need for money to 'buy' time with him.

I mean, this is the woman who had to drive to PF or meet him at a rodeo. Somehow he must have always had an excuse why he couldn't drive 800 miles to see her in Idaho - or even 400 miles to meet halfway. That should have been a red flag to her.

Totally agree. I wonder if he ever did go see her in ID. They may just have not said since the murder in Colorado is their focus.

I think the fundraising too may be an excuse because I just do not see him volunteering to get involved in fundraising. imo.

On a bit different note, it is not uncommon when worried about custody, child support, etc. for assets to be put in someone else's name. Unfortunately I have seen that many times in my life. And possibly even from the time he knew of the pregnancy but for sure once he worried about custody, etc. Or to hide income.

The risk in that is when they want credit, they cannot show assets or income. Which could explain the inability for him to help them get a house together... The other risk to that is if the person whose name your asset is in dies, you cannot prove it is truly yours. So for those that do it, it can also backfire. Of course in his case, no concerns because he is going away most likely for a long time anyhow...

 

[gngr~snap]

A few random thoughts ... Even if PF thought he knew what he was doing when killing KB (eg thought it wouldn’t be overly messy/bloody), there would be no way to completely ensure that. I would think he had to have been a mess and cleaned himself up during those two hours inside KB’s condo. Well enough that he could then show up for thanksgiving dinner at his families and not have missed spatter on himself somewhere.

I’m also wondering ... perhaps he did have an issue the night before thanksgiving with his cattle or his stomach. But do you guys suspect this ‘till 4am’ thing could have been him thinking about killing KB that night before thanksgiving instead, or at least trying to wear KB down and make her tired? But then he decided to wait until thanksgiving?

I was thinking along the same lines. Perhaps he was hoping she would invite him to stay at her place.
IMO he really was not welcome there for an overnight stay. She drove quite a ways to return him to his mother's house didn't she?
Moo

 

[Seattle1]

Maybe they filed the civil suit to force him to testify asap and not necessarily for any assets he might have.

I believe CB/DB have great legal representation, and using a brilliant strategy. Also, this has never been about assets -- this is about justice for their daughter and granddaughter.

IMO, Berreth's used their initial WD claim to get on record early with the Court, and DA and KK's plea agreement. KK's obligated to to cooperate with cases against PF -- most likely including Berreth's.

The Berreth suit also put others on notice that they may be called as witnesses today, and depositions could begin without delay.

And Berreth's have always known PF deposition would be delayed until after criminal trial.

At about the preliminary hearing, Berreth's amended their initial claim, and also caused baby K, child of KB, to file WD claim against the defendant PF.

Yup, pawns, rooks, knights, bishops, and queen are set in place, and game open...

MOO

 

[Deleted member 102539]

New thought by my friend, who I told about the 5 teeth:
What, if PF has taken K's teeth for his safety, in case KKL would snitch on him (right wording?)?? Because he got arrested early on and KKL only after his arrest told their collective murder "story", he couldn't use his "evidence" against KKL and wasn't able to threw throw the 5 teeth secretly into KKL's car/home/bag.

spelling

 

[k-mac]

I'm not sure anybody would have given a black tote in the back of a pickup truck traveling down a road a second thought, or would they even had a reason to at that point.

As far as a smell, I doubt anybody would have noticed that either unless they actually walked up to it. As far as we know he was traveling down the road with it in the bed of his pickup. So I doubt anybody would have been able to smell it.

MOO

what a shame though he didn't get pulled over for a broken break light or something!...A highway patrol certainly would have recognised the smell of a decomp in the back

just imagine KK and PF splainin that away!

was definitely risky. but they did it, in plane sight.

 

[Mimi in London]

I would be curious to learn what all was actually in the report from SS on the day that Baby K was born. CB says that PF was mad at the nurses bc of him and KB not being able to be with the baby immediately after giving birth. But she also says that the baby was taken away until SS could determine weather PF was abusive towards KB. So it begs the question of not only what PF was saying to the nurses, but what was he saying to KB? Seems like there must have been some pattern of abuse in their relationship, as people like PF generally are even more abusive when somebody is not watching.

It would be interesting to know whether CB was present for the birth. That is, whether she witnessed it first-hand, or if she heard about it from Kelsey later.

Because if my fiancé was acting like this much of an idiot, I’d play down the story to my mother. I wouldn’t want her to think badly of him.

 

[Seattle1]

spelling

Except even having the teeth still would not place KK at the crime scene on 11/22/18.

All the evidence points to this being the date of KB death.

 

[MassGuy]

It would be interesting to know whether CB was present for the birth. That is, whether she witnessed it first-hand, or if she heard about it from Kelsey later.

Because if my fiancé was acting like this much of an idiot, I’d play down the story to my mother. I wouldn’t want her to think badly of him.

Yeah, my guess is that it came from Kelsey. It doesn’t sound to me like CB was present at the time.

If she played it down, which I think is absolutely possible, then it begs the question: how much worse was it?

Because that sounds pretty damn bad to me.

 

[Seattle1]

It would be interesting to know whether CB was present for the birth. That is, whether she witnessed it first-hand, or if she heard about it from Kelsey later.

Because if my fiancé was acting like this much of an idiot, I’d play down the story to my mother. I wouldn’t want her to think badly of him.

If I recall correctly, the account about social services being called to the hospital was given to investigators by CB so I believe she was likely present at the birth. MOO

 

[ilovechili]

It would be interesting to know whether CB was present for the birth. That is, whether she witnessed it first-hand, or if she heard about it from Kelsey later.

Because if my fiancé was acting like this much of an idiot, I’d play down the story to my mother. I wouldn’t want her to think badly of him.

I think the fact the baby came early would lend to CB not being there but she may have been at some point or shortly thereafter. I would suspect she planned on being there for the birth but would have no reason to expect it 3 weeks early?

It would be no surprise though if SS questioned her (and others) about what she knew of PF and KB's relationship and how he treated her.

It would also be no surprise to me that KB may have downplayed what PF did somewhat, whether her mother was present or not.

 

[GordianKnot]

Cannot shake these feelings about KK and her actual involvement.
Bad move the deal the State made with her and this is not going to end in justice for Kelsey. I really hope I'm wrong.

If if makes you feel any better, I think you are.

I definitely understand that it's really hard to shake off feelings of doubt when you're experiencing them.

Feelings aren't facts.

I tell myself this all the time, especially when I think my feelings might be clouding my vision and/or leading me to jump to conclusions.

The DA Dan May has made the determination that he needed KK's testimony in order to cement a conviction against PF. The DA's priority is making sure that PF goes away forever.
He's a violent, evil, dangerous monster.

If the DA didn't need KK, he wouldn't have made such a sweetie beauty of a deal with her. To do so would be totally illogical.

The DA has vetted her story.
I have no doubt she has directly led them to additional evidence in the case, which has doubtless been invaluable.

KK's testimony is absolutely critical to securing a conviction in this case.
Her testimony will be supported by the overwhelming mountain of circumstantial evidence that the DA will bring forward to corroborate KK's account of events, and PF's guilt.

It is KK alone who can and will testify to PF's calling her to tell her she needed to get her keister to CO because she "had a mess to clean up."

It is KK alone who can and will testify to the scene she walked into at KB's townhome when she went to clean up PF's bloody mess.

It is KK alone who can and will testify to the bonfire at the Frazee ranch and the burning of the black tote which is purported to have contained KB's body.

It is KK alone who can and will testify to the multiple solicitations that PF made of her, and the specific plans he asked her to execute, e.g. poison Starbucks, baseball bat attack, etc.

The proverbial fat lady's gonna' be singing like a canary on the stand.

And after she's warbled her last note, it's all over for PF.

Gavel. Drop.

JMO.

 

[k-mac]

Ok. But I doubt if it was all that smelly yet. He likely hauled it the first night and it was cool out. High temps for the 22 to the 24 were 57, 50 and 56. Lows were 21, 33 and 44. The body would have cooled more quickly at 21 and might have been partially frozen. Unless the tote was sitting in the sun during the day, I don't think it would have gotten all that hot. If it was out of the sun and the body was cold, the hay would insulate the bottom of it and keep it at a similar temp. It was likely cooler under the shed out of the sun. It was probably starting to smell by the 24th, but it wouldn't be like it would if it was summer time with temps at 80 and above. Now, if the body wasn't in the tote and it was just garbage and bloody things from the cleanup, then maybe there wasn't much odor at all yet. MOO.

decomposing human remains are rank.
anybody who hasn't smelt it ….enjoy the ignorance...truly it is horrific.
and once you know it, you can smell it like esp....the smallest wiff and you KNOW exactly something is in the air and it carries.

I keep in the back of my mind when talking about decomp the jon benet ramsey case.

detective arnt said when john brought her up the stairs and laid her under the xmas tree she said you could smell the decomp.

-this was max 12 hours later
-she had no obvious open wounds or blood loss other than seepage from her mouth nose and ears etc. which was minimal.
-it was freezing cold
- she had been laying on a cold concrete slab.
-rigor had set.

so I think knowing KB was bashed and their would have been open wounds etc no matter the temp I believe decomp smell would have been rank.
it is possible the tote kept it contained but for me I think there would have been traces of body fluids outside of it and that alone would be alarmingly rank.

moo

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I would be curious to learn what all was actually in the report from SS on the day that Baby K was born. CB says that PF was mad at the nurses bc of him and KB not being able to be with the baby immediately after giving birth. But she also says that the baby was taken away until SS could determine weather PF was abusive towards KB. So it begs the question of not only what PF was saying to the nurses, but what was he saying to KB? Seems like there must have been some pattern of abuse in their relationship, as people like PF generally are even more abusive when somebody is not watching.

bbm
Don't know, if I said it before. Maybe, they suspected PF even to have caused the 3 weeks prematurely birth through abuse towards KB?? If that was the case, the abuse must have been severe, IMO.

 

[ilovechili]

decomposing human remains are rank.
anybody who hasn't smelt it ….enjoy the ignorance...truly it is horrific.
and once you know it, you can smell it like esp....the smallest wiff and you KNOW exactly something is in the air and it carries.

I keep in the back of my mind when talking about decomp the jon benet ramsey case.

detective arnt said when john brought her up the stairs and laid her under the xmas tree she said you could smell the decomp.

-this was max 12 hours later
-she had no obvious open wounds or blood loss other than seepage from her mouth nose and ears etc. which was minimal.
-it was freezing cold
- she had been laying on a cold concrete slab.
-rigor had set.

so I think knowing KB was bashed and their would have been open wounds etc no matter the temp I believe decomp smell would have been rank.
it is possible the tote kept it contained but for me I think there would have been traces of body fluids outside of it and that alone would be alarmingly rank.

moo

This brings to mind that when this goes to trial, these kinds of experts will be there, for both sides.

 

[ilovechili]

bbm
Don't know, if I said it before. Maybe, they suspected PF even to have caused the 3 weeks prematurely birth through abuse towards KB?? If that was the case, the abuse must have been severe, IMO.

Even severe stress can contribute to that... Great point...

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Except even having the teeth still would not place KK at the crime scene on 11/22/18.

All the evidence points to this being the date of KB death.

Quite right, but PF didn't know the whole further development on 11/22/18. If/when he took the teeth to the ranchette on TG, he may have planned to store the teeth for "special emergencies" in case, something would happen later on. PF didn't need a "souvenir" of KB, I think.
If the teeth aren't KB's, then this speculation would be invalid anyway.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Even severe stress can contribute to that... Great point...

It seems, poor KB had to endure TORTURE all the way from 2016 until her sad terrible end. One could cry.
That would have to be paid back to PF and also to KKL, who was a helping hand as a permanent rival.

 

[ilovechili]

Quite right, but PF didn't know the whole further development on 11/22/18. If/when he took the teeth to the ranchette on TG, he may have planned to store the teeth for "special emergencies" in case, something would happen later on. PF didn't need a "souvenir" of KB, I think.
If the teeth aren't KB's, then this speculation would be anyway invalid.

He is the type who would plant the teeth on her thinking it would point the finger her way. Or someone else even if it did not work to do it to her. Let's face it, he lied to LE but video showed he lied. He was pretty full of it and things were not well thought out at all by PF. He tried to get her to do the murders. He had her take the gun and phone. I can see it and his not well thought out thoughts--whether it would have worked or not is another thing. I can see him thinking exactly that. And he clearly never thought he would be looked at for some very full of it reason...

And like you say that is if they are her teeth.

Maybe they would have taken teeth with a search warrant regardless, but I do find it interesting that they did so after hearing KK's story which included teeth...

We shall see I guess.

 

[acutename]

ilc, PF may have been caught on camera somewhere in a gray shirt and/or KK may have reported to LE that he was wearing a gray shirt during the clean up of the crime scene, the removal of KB's body and/or the disposal of her remains.

Part of KK's deal would certainly entail her providing detailed info re: a physical description of what PF was wearing during all of their activities r/t KB's murder. KK may have said she remembered him "wearing a gray shirt" but been conveniently unable to recall any specifics about the shirt, i.e., logo, etc.

That would certainly not surprise me.

JMO.

in theory, KK does not know what he was wearing during the murder because she was 2 states and 2 days away. of course he might have said something or left soiled clothing at the condo. would be surprised if he took extra clothing- just seems like an easy thing to forget if you are going to kill some one because you would have a lot on your mind, IMO