Found Deceased CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #19

Discussion in 'Located Persons Discussion' started by ColoGirl, Aug 16, 2018.

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  1. ColoGirl

    ColoGirl Well-Known Member

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  2. Tricia

    Tricia Owner Websleuths.com Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    The difference now is we have a defendant who is telling his story about what happened. He has not been found guilty so since he is the only witness and he says Shanann killed their two children then we have to allow discussion on whether this is true or not. If a member wishes to believe Chris Watts is telling the truth then we must respectfully let that person express their opinion as long as it is within TOS.

    Please alert if you see a post that violates our terms of service. It is not a violation of our TOS if someone expresses that she/he believes Shanann murdered her children. Until we have a guilty verdict or until Chris Watts changes his story we will allow discussion on this topic.

    Thanks,
    Tricia
     
  3. Tricia

    Tricia Owner Websleuths.com Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    Hey Everyone,

    A bit of clarification.

    Please, no more discussion on the viability of Shanann's company or whether her company was or wasn't a pyramid scheme. No more digging up documents or complaints or anything to do with the function of the company. The fact is Shanann's company is not what we are discussing.

    If want to discuss if job stress may have contributed to Shanann and Chris' relationship problems please make sure it is in the realm of reality and not the Twilight Zone.

    Thank you,
    Tricia
     
  4. gitana1

    gitana1 Verified Attorney

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    I am posting the evidence we know of again as some have asked. If anyone has other evidence to add please copy and add.

    Evidence of triple murder:

    1. Dad claims he saw a blue child on a baby monitor at night.

    2. The coincidence of two people, unrelated by blood, both reacting to something in a short span of time by losing their minds and committing homicide, defies reason.

    3. The coincidence of those same people both committing homicide in the exact same manner -strangulation- is unlikely.

    4. A father passionate enough with love for his children, to kill at the sight of them being harmed, would be desperate beyond reason to save them. But:
    a. Dad failed to call 911 to try to save his children. Even if he thought they were beyond help, a parentslove is so intense they will desperately and irrationally try for help that will never come.
    b. There is no account of him throwing off the mother and working desperately to revive them or resuscitate them. Hell, total strangers have performed CPR on a child's corpse in rigor. (Cooper Harris case). But a passionately loving dad didn't even try in this case?

    5. The dad failed to call 911 after killing his wife in a supposed fury of emotion.

    6. Dad also failed to run screaming onto the lawn for help or in anguish.
    In cases of such Greek tragedy magnitude either 5 or 6 usually comes into play.

    7. This entire scene - the "emotional argument", the vicious strangulation of two children, the father witnessing the incomprehensible and reacting with murderous fury and anguish - all of it was totally silent. Except for the poor dog howling that night. How do we know? Because the houses are in close proximity and neighbors mentioned hearing nothing but the dog the next day IIRC.

    8. CW did not scream or wail in anguish so great that it caused him to murder his wife. Not one report of such sounds.

    9. CW supposedly lost his mind in grief and anguish. However he regained it in moments in a manner that does not comport with a true mental break. In cases we have seen where people lose it and commit murder, they are typically either wailing on the lawn and to 911 operators or they are in an apparent psychotic state- not lying about what happened, not covering it up, not able to function normally at all. See thumbnail of Julie Schenecker as an example of what this looks like. Police interview Julie Schenecker after kids found dead

    10. CW, after such an insanely, horrific Greek tragedy of a scene, calmly loaded up the bodies of his wife and children in order to conceal their deaths and dispose of them. We know this because a neighbor stated she witnessed him leaving. (No reports of wailing and she said, IIRC, the truck drove normally. So no veering, spinning of tires or other signs of lack of composure). And it's apparently on video.

    11. CW, a man passionately in love enough with his kids to erupt in murderous rage when they're harmed, did not attempt to give them a burial that comports psychologically with the love and bond parents have with their kids. Death Rituals Reported by White, Black, and Hispanic Parents Following the ICU Death of an Infant or Child
    A Global History of Child Death

    12. Instead he dumps them in two separate vats of oil. Not together. No way to commemorate their lives. Concealed. Discarded. In a manner that veers from any known traditional burial rite of any kind.

    13. CW went to work and monitored the ring video of his house. After the horrific Greek tragedy he just endured. He went to work. And monitored the video of his front door.

    14. CW left a few voice messages and sent some texts to the wife he knew was dead, thus calmly concealing what happened.

    15. CW calmly called SW's friend after she came to the door and he saw her on the ring video. He asked what was going on. We know this because he stated as much and this is corroborated by the friend.

    16. CW rushed home - blowing stop signs and with beating heart, according to him- when CW came to the house and expressed alarm. The first time we have heard of a hint of emotion on his part since the horrific murders of his kids supposedly by his wife and his heat of passion killing of her, occurs when he the authorities are about to get involved.

    17. CW cooly lied to the friend about where SW was supposed to be that day and why she wasn't at home. After he lost his mind the night before. He is calm and able to work to conceal those events.

    18. There is not one hint of brief reactive psychosis or drug induced psychosis in CW's demeanor and behavior since 5:15 am the morning of the deaths, nor the next day as he gives calm and detailed interviews to the media. His pupils are normal. He is not slurring speech. He does not have a vacant stare. He exhibits no delusions or paranoia. He is not showing emotional lability. (I'm no expert in psychology but have seen a few psychotic people due to psychotic breaks or drugs and it's easy to research).

    19. CW shows no anguish, depression, grief, concern, sadness or despair during his stoic media interviews, despite having supposedly been so deranged by his passionate love for his kids that he killed their attacker. His eyes are dry. Not red. No signs of puffiness from weeping. His face is smooth and calm. He looks well rested. No bags under his eyes. He smiles. He grins. He smirks. All with the knowledge that his insane wife savagely murdered his precious babies causing him to lose his mind with anguish. And with the knowledge that the people he loved so fiercely it caused him to kill, are rotting in separate vats of oil.

    20. CW calmly and continuously lies to the media about the whereabouts of his dead wife and dead children.

    21. CW systematically works with LE to track down his wife and kids. Brainstorming. Supplying numbers and addresses. Calling people. All the while knowing they are dead and decomposing.

    22. CW is questioned and lies about having an affair. A motive in many murders of wives.

    23. SW was pregnant. (A circumstance present in vast numbers of murders of spouses or parents by men).

    24. Some people and report that CW seemed distant with his wife and kids in the weeks leading up to this monstrous event.

    25. CW was not hospitalized for any reason after this tragedy.

    A couple of things from the CO model jury instructions:

    D:01 DIRECT AND CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE—NO DISTINCTION

    A fact may be proven by either direct or circumstantial evidence. Under the law, both are acceptable ways to prove something. Neither is necessarily more reliable than the other.


    E:03 PRESUMPTION OF INNOCENCE, BURDEN OF PROOF, AND REASONABLE DOUBT

    Reasonable doubt means a doubt based upon reason and common sense which arises from a fair and rational consideration of all of the evidence, or the lack of evidence, in the case. It is a doubt which is not a vague, speculative or imaginary doubt, but such a doubt as would cause reasonable people to hesitate to act in matters of importance to themselves.

    https://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/Supreme_Court/Committees/Criminal_Jury_Instructions/2017/COLJI-Crim 2017 - Final.pdf
     

    Attached Files:

  5. The Saint

    The Saint Well-Known Member

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    Isalybra,

    Thank you for joining us. I know that it is a painful time for you and other friends of Shanann. I'm so sorry for your loss.

    I don't mean to overload you, but these are things I'd like to know if you are to able to give us information:

    1. Do you know where we could find a floorplan of the Watts home? Does the housing development have a name, so we can look for their floorplan online?
    Can you look at the2 attached floorplans and see if they are correct? I may have the girls' bedrooms wrong. I don't know which patio option.

    2. Are there low windows on the side of the garage that Nikole's son would be able to see Shahnann's car inside the garage? Or could it be that the garage's front roll-up door
    wasn't locked? Is there an outside side door to the garage that could have been unlocked? (There is one in the floorplans below)

    3. Do you know where the Amazon Echo was located in the Watts home other than than the kitchen? Was there more than one Echo? If so, where were they located? Alexa could have recorded the murders.

    4. How many flat screen TVs did the Watts have and where were they located?
    I ask because smart TVs, especially Samsungs, can eavesdrop and record the audio inside your house. The TV(s) and Google Voice on Shanann's cellphone could have recorded the murders.

    5. (Was a question about Dieter that has been answered)

    6. I'm confused about the day and time at whch the neighbors 2 doors down heard Dieter barking in a terrible way as if he had been injured. They said they called the police for a wellness check and everything was ok. Do you know what day and time this happened? Was Dieter still in the Watts house when the cadaver dogs where searching the house?


    7. RE: Financial stress. There has been a wide range of speculation about what kind of
    salary Shanann was earning --- anywhere from less than $20,000 up to $80,000 and beyond. Can you give us an idea of what she actually was making (not including the
    car allowance)?

    8. Was there any indication that their home was in danger of foreclosure by the bank
    (not HOA)?
    Did Shanann's mom co-sign the current mortage?

    9. The health of Bella and CeCe seemed very fragile, due to much more than just nut allergies. Shanann had a category on her Pinterest page titled FMF that included pins about Periodic Fever Syndrome that affects children. Did Bella & CeCe that's why they had surgery in March to remove their adenoids and insert ear tubes? Did the girls have frequent health crises?

    10. How many baby monitor display screens did Shanann have and where were they located? Were they split screen so you could see Bella's room and CeCe's room
    at the same time? Were they color or black-and-white? Did their baby monitors
    record or upload via wifi to a Cloud? Do you know the model number or name of the Summer Infant monitor that the Watts owned??

    11. Do you know if their Ring doorbell would record the vistor on Shanann's cell phone or Cloud whether she answered the alert or not?

    Thanks so much!

    (Apologies to WS posters if these questions were discussed earlier. I've had trouble keeping up due to the time zone difference and thread lockdowns.)
     

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    Last edited: Sep 8, 2018
  6. Tricia

    Tricia Owner Websleuths.com Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    Good Morning Everyone,

    Here is your new Watts discussion thread.

    This thread will open this morning before 7:30 AM Mountain time.

    Thank you,
    Tricia
     
  7. The Saint

    The Saint Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for bringing my questions over, Tricia.
     
    margarita25 and Thepoet like this.
  8. Harmony 2

    Harmony 2 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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  9. evilgenuis1

    evilgenuis1 Active Member

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    I have read through some of the threads! So much discussion on this case. It boggles my mind. I am sure this has been discussed, but can someone point me to the correct thread or just answer this question, please? I know the autopsies were done. But has a cause of death been publicly released? If so, where can I read that? I know that CW said he strangled SW, but I was wondering about the unlawful termination of pregnancy thing in the arrest document. Can someone clear this up for me? I would do appreciate your help!
     
  10. Can someone clarify a couple of thoughts I am having?

    CW told police that he looked at the baby monitor screen and saw SW strangling their daughter Celeste and that he saw their older daughter, Bella, "sprawled" out on her bed and blue, according to the affidavit.
    So if that was the true, how can CW explain that both girls were in Bella's bed being strangled when they each had their own bedrooms especially since I read somewhere on WS that both the little girls beds were either "made up" or "unmade" (need to also clarify which state the beds were in but can't find a link).
    Also, if Bella was already dead in her bed and SW was in the midst of strangling Celeste in Bella's bed, how come CW couldn't prevent SW from completing that crime to Celeste? It is making the assumption that Celeste was already near death when CW saw the crimes on the baby monitor.
    But didn't CW say he stepped away for only a moment to go downstairs?
    How can both girls be dead in such a short amount of time ~ doesn't strangulation require more time to complete to result in death?

    So basically CW was stating in affidavit that both girls were in Bella's bed at the time of their deaths.

    Either the girls beds were unmade or they were made.

    If the beds were unmade, then how did Celeste get to be in Bella's bed ~ assuming Celeste would have gone to bed in her own room based on the fact that her bed was unmade?

    If the beds are not made up, then where did the girls go to sleep that night?

    How could SW kill both girls in such a short amount of time for CW to go downstairs and come back up?

    Doesn't make sense.
     
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  11. dixiegirl1035

    dixiegirl1035 Well-Known Member

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    I think some people were left behind as the link to the new thread is not on the old thread, and for many folks, that's the only way they can find their way?
     
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  12. Autopsies were completed but nothing has been released to the public.
     
  13. I noticed that as well but just looked at recent posts and the link came up for new thread.
     
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  14. dixiegirl1035

    dixiegirl1035 Well-Known Member

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    The autopsies have not been released.

    The reasoning for that questionable charge was explained in the press conference,( someone may have it saved to throw up for you if you would like to see it) people talked about it up thread.

    Their reasoning was in the state of Colorado, that is only one of a few states that do not have a charge for killing a fetus. That is the only way that the district attorney could charge him for the killing of Nico( the fetus per legal).
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2018
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  15. mtnlites

    mtnlites President of the Imaginary Friends' Club

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    In the previous thread, @The Saint said that CW had life insurance on his kids and then asked, "Who does that?" Answer? Smart people (or, in this case, people planning something). But mostly smart people.

    Cost of child loss is something that nobody talks about. But it's definitely something that many of us have faced. $5,000 for the funeral/embalming/etc, $1100 for the casket, $500 for the cemetery fees, etc. Those were the costs quoted to us. We wound up with cremation but it still cost more than $5,000 out of pocket. Then there were the final costs that health insurance didn't cover, including transferring the body to the state ME from our local hospital. All together it cost us, in bills, more than $15,000. And my husband and I didn't get to take a single day off from work because we needed the money.

    We didn't have life insurance on our child that died but we do on our 2 living children now. NOBODY plans on their children dying (except maybe CW). We didn't. But things can happen. Accidents. Illnesses. And the costs can, frankly, bury a family. Not everyone gets thousands of dollars in donations afterwards, or even hundreds. If we'd had life insurance then we could have taken time off to grieve and focus on our surviving son. Instead, we were hit with immediate bills we didn't know how to pay and doing badly at jobs we didn't want to be at.

    As far as why CW got insurance on the kids? Could be premeditation, could be be what-if scenario planning, or it could just be that his job offered it. The insurance that we have on our kids can be cashed out. When they turn 18 they can withdraw $8,000. We thought that might be a good graduation present.
     
  16. JudgeJudi

    JudgeJudi Well-Known Member

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    Post #787 from previous thread

    @ZsaZsa

    “Why would he have had his tools in the house? His answer would have been interesting”.

    The house has a triple garage and I would have thought that’s where tools were kept. Tools??? I guess that means a shovel and 3 bodies.

    Oh, there was one more tool. Him.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2018
  17. PommyMommy

    PommyMommy #ShinelikeShanann

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    No, it does not make sense, but CW didn't say (from what is in the affidavit) that it all took place on Bella's bed. He said he saw Bella sprawled out and "blue," and Shanann strangling Celeste, but the affidavit does not say WHERE Shanann was supposedly strangling Celeste - in Bella's bed, Bella's room, in Celeste's room, etc.

    NUA stated in an ABC video that the girl's beds weren't made. The video and a transcript is here: Video: Friend of woman allegedly killed by husband on why something 'didn't seem right'
     
  18. JudgeJudi

    JudgeJudi Well-Known Member

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    In the past week, the names of up to four women have been posted on closed internet forums as amateur sleuths race to work out her identity. Three of the four names put forward as CW’s possible mistresses are long-haired brunettes like his wife while the fourth is a blonde, married family friend with young children of her own. Some of the women worked alongside CW and SW as brand promoters for Le-Vel while one is employed with Anadarko Petroleum where CW was an operator.

    A forensic profiler has detailed chilling personality similarities between CW and Scott Peterson.

    He says CW presents as a less charismatic version of Peterson. “There are very clear personality connections between Chris (Watts) and Scott Peterson, except for the fact that Chris seemed to be less outgoing and is not as dynamic as Scott”.

    There are “key factors” that could “lead him” to allegedly murder his family and hide the bodies.

    “There was an incredible amount of debt; the couple was irresponsible in the way they were spending money,” he said. “All the fundamentals are there for this kind of behaviour — the financial stress and stress in the marriage.”

    Plus a few new pics.

    Rumours fly over killer husband Chris Watts’ secret lover
     
  19. MCDRAW

    MCDRAW Well-Known Member

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    @The Saint: I can answer you about the ring doorbell. It will video regardless of whether the door is answered or not. It will video even if no one rings the doorbell. It goes off motion. It will save on your phone but can be erased from the phone. You can pay for storage. I pay for that service buy haven't had the need to save any so I'm not sure how that works.
     
  20. JudgeJudi

    JudgeJudi Well-Known Member

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    CW told investigators that he went downstairs for a moment, then returned to speak with Shanann. He looked at the baby monitor in their bedroom and what he saw threw him “into a rage”.

    1) It's my understanding that he couldn't have seen that Bella was blue on the monitor.

    2) I don't believe he went into a rage at all.

    3) It's possible he went downstairs to get some gloves. He's insisting that DNA testing be done on the babies' necks. You would only do that if you know that your prints won't be found. Shanann was very houseproud and it's quite feasible that she had disposable latex gloves and they could easily be flushed down the toilet.

    So he could have strangled them if he wore gloves or alternatively, smothered them. No DNA either way.
     
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