Found Deceased CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #37

Discussion in 'Located Persons Discussion' started by ColoGirl, Aug 16, 2018.

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  1. ColoGirl

    ColoGirl Well-Known Member

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  2. Tricia

    Tricia Owner Websleuths.com Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    Hey Everyone,

    A bit of clarification.

    Please, no more discussion on the viability of Shanann's company or whether her company was or wasn't a pyramid scheme. No more digging up documents or complaints or anything to do with the function of the company. The fact is Shanann's company is not what we are discussing.

    If want to discuss if job stress may have contributed to Shanann and Chris' relationship problems please make sure it is in the realm of reality and not the Twilight Zone.

    Thank you,
    Tricia
     
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  3. gitana1

    gitana1 Verified Attorney

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    I am posting the evidence we know of again as some have asked. If anyone has other evidence to add please copy and add.

    Evidence of triple murder:

    1. Dad claims he saw a blue child on a baby monitor at night.

    2. The coincidence of two people, unrelated by blood, both reacting to something in a short span of time by losing their minds and committing homicide, defies reason.

    3. The coincidence of those same people both committing homicide in the exact same manner -strangulation- is unlikely.

    4. A father passionate enough with love for his children, to kill at the sight of them being harmed, would be desperate beyond reason to save them. But:
    a. Dad failed to call 911 to try to save his children. Even if he thought they were beyond help, a parentslove is so intense they will desperately and irrationally try for help that will never come.
    b. There is no account of him throwing off the mother and working desperately to revive them or resuscitate them. Hell, total strangers have performed CPR on a child's corpse in rigor. (Cooper Harris case). But a passionately loving dad didn't even try in this case?

    5. The dad failed to call 911 after killing his wife in a supposed fury of emotion.

    6. Dad also failed to run screaming onto the lawn for help or in anguish.
    In cases of such Greek tragedy magnitude either 5 or 6 usually comes into play.

    7. This entire scene - the "emotional argument", the vicious strangulation of two children, the father witnessing the incomprehensible and reacting with murderous fury and anguish - all of it was totally silent. Except for the poor dog howling that night. How do we know? Because the houses are in close proximity and neighbors mentioned hearing nothing but the dog the next day IIRC.

    8. CW did not scream or wail in anguish so great that it caused him to murder his wife. Not one report of such sounds.

    9. CW supposedly lost his mind in grief and anguish. However he regained it in moments in a manner that does not comport with a true mental break. In cases we have seen where people lose it and commit murder, they are typically either wailing on the lawn and to 911 operators or they are in an apparent psychotic state- not lying about what happened, not covering it up, not able to function normally at all. See thumbnail of Julie Schenecker as an example of what this looks like. Police interview Julie Schenecker after kids found dead

    10. CW, after such an insanely, horrific Greek tragedy of a scene, calmly loaded up the bodies of his wife and children in order to conceal their deaths and dispose of them. We know this because a neighbor stated she witnessed him leaving. (No reports of wailing and she said, IIRC, the truck drove normally. So no veering, spinning of tires or other signs of lack of composure). And it's apparently on video.

    11. CW, a man passionately in love enough with his kids to erupt in murderous rage when they're harmed, did not attempt to give them a burial that comports psychologically with the love and bond parents have with their kids. Death Rituals Reported by White, Black, and Hispanic Parents Following the ICU Death of an Infant or Child
    A Global History of Child Death

    12. Instead he dumps them in two separate vats of oil. Not together. No way to commemorate their lives. Concealed. Discarded. In a manner that veers from any known traditional burial rite of any kind.

    13. CW went to work and monitored the ring video of his house. After the horrific Greek tragedy he just endured. He went to work. And monitored the video of his front door.

    14. CW left a few voice messages and sent some texts to the wife he knew was dead, thus calmly concealing what happened.

    15. CW calmly called SW's friend after she came to the door and he saw her on the ring video. He asked what was going on. We know this because he stated as much and this is corroborated by the friend.

    16. CW rushed home - blowing stop signs and with beating heart, according to him- when CW came to the house and expressed alarm. The first time we have heard of a hint of emotion on his part since the horrific murders of his kids supposedly by his wife and his heat of passion killing of her, occurs when he the authorities are about to get involved.

    17. CW cooly lied to the friend about where SW was supposed to be that day and why she wasn't at home. After he lost his mind the night before. He is calm and able to work to conceal those events.

    18. There is not one hint of brief reactive psychosis or drug induced psychosis in CW's demeanor and behavior since 5:15 am the morning of the deaths, nor the next day as he gives calm and detailed interviews to the media. His pupils are normal. He is not slurring speech. He does not have a vacant stare. He exhibits no delusions or paranoia. He is not showing emotional lability. (I'm no expert in psychology but have seen a few psychotic people due to psychotic breaks or drugs and it's easy to research).

    19. CW shows no anguish, depression, grief, concern, sadness or despair during his stoic media interviews, despite having supposedly been so deranged by his passionate love for his kids that he killed their attacker. His eyes are dry. Not red. No signs of puffiness from weeping. His face is smooth and calm. He looks well rested. No bags under his eyes. He smiles. He grins. He smirks. All with the knowledge that his insane wife savagely murdered his precious babies causing him to lose his mind with anguish. And with the knowledge that the people he loved so fiercely it caused him to kill, are rotting in separate vats of oil.

    20. CW calmly and continuously lies to the media about the whereabouts of his dead wife and dead children.

    21. CW systematically works with LE to track down his wife and kids. Brainstorming. Supplying numbers and addresses. Calling people. All the while knowing they are dead and decomposing.

    22. CW is questioned and lies about having an affair. A motive in many murders of wives.

    23. SW was pregnant. (A circumstance present in vast numbers of murders of spouses or parents by men).

    24. Some people and report that CW seemed distant with his wife and kids in the weeks leading up to this monstrous event.

    25. CW was not hospitalized for any reason after this tragedy.

    A couple of things from the CO model jury instructions:

    D:01 DIRECT AND CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE—NO DISTINCTION

    A fact may be proven by either direct or circumstantial evidence. Under the law, both are acceptable ways to prove something. Neither is necessarily more reliable than the other.


    E:03 PRESUMPTION OF INNOCENCE, BURDEN OF PROOF, AND REASONABLE DOUBT

    Reasonable doubt means a doubt based upon reason and common sense which arises from a fair and rational consideration of all of the evidence, or the lack of evidence, in the case. It is a doubt which is not a vague, speculative or imaginary doubt, but such a doubt as would cause reasonable people to hesitate to act in matters of importance to themselves.

    https://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/Supreme_Court/Committees/Criminal_Jury_Instructions/2017/COLJI-Crim 2017 - Final.pdf
     

    Attached Files:

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  4. liltexans

    liltexans Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Please continue the discussion here and please keep the following points in mind:

    Welcome to all new members. Please take a moment to familiarize yourselves with our Rules and Terms of Service (TOS).

    Do NOT personalize your posts or direct them in any way toward another poster. This is not Facebook. Be respectful whether you agree with another poster or not. We have a helpful "ignore" feature if you can't stand to read a particular poster's thoughts. Otherwise, just scroll and roll if you do not have anything constructive to contribute to the line of discussion.

    Do not tell others how or what to post. Do not attempt to moderate the thread yourselves. Those are all TOS violations. Use the "Report" feature if you have a problem with a post or another poster and let the moderators handle it.

    Do NOT bring rumors and gossip here from Facebook. It is against TOS and it serves no purpose here other than to stir the pot. We are allowing discussion of the defense put forward by CW's legal team, but we will not allow or tolerate any bashing of SW or her children. Leave that nonsense on Facebook or expect to receive warning points and possibly a timeout.

    Thank you.
     
  5. Tricia

    Tricia Owner Websleuths.com Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    NEW RULES! EVERYONE, PLEASE READ ASAP

    Hi Everyone,

    To say the Watts case has been a challenge is an understatement.

    I'll get right to the point.

    Ther have been so many pointless alerts, alerts by the same people against the same people, that Websleuths has come very close to the point of shutting down because we did not have the staff to cover the rest of the forum.

    Really. I'm not exaggerating.

    The Watts discussion had divided members as I have never seen before.

    We have some new rules. New rules for the Watts thread only.

    1 - You may alert on the same person twice in a current thread. If you go to alert a third time on that same person in the same thread, you must not alert. You have to ignore the person or scroll by. If the post is bad enough someone else will alert on it. If it works out to where some of the posts stand that should have been alerted on oh well.
    If you do alert more than two times on the same person on the same thread then it is an automatic FIVE DAY TIMEOUT.

    2 - We are starting fresh. No more Facebook drama. No drama from anywhere period. This thread is now a drama free zone

    3 - No more talking about other cases unless there is a legit reason to do so.

    4 - No more off-topic posts and this includes portions of your life you decide to reveal.

    5 - If you speculate on some aspect of this case your speculation must be based in reality. I think Chris and Shanann are lizard people from another planet is not a speculation based in reality. Did Chris and Shanann have money issues is a very logical speculation. If you are not sure whether you should speculate or not I would say do not. If you have any hesitation about your post please do not hit the reply button on the post.

    6 - Did I mention the new rule about alerts on the Watts thread only? You may alert two times on one poster per Watts discussion thread. If you alert a third on the same poster on the same thread it is an automatic FIVE -DAY timeout. Let someone else alert. If it is bad enough someone will catch it I promise.

    7 - Remember the "Ignore" feature is your friend. Use it, please?

    8 - If you mention any Facebook post, if you mention a story from Facebook, if you mention something from a random Facebook account that has not been approved by Websleuths first it is an automatic FIVE DAY time out.

    9 - We may add to this list. For right now this is everything I can think of at the moment.

    Thank you,
    Tricia.
    P.S. The new thread will be ready to go in the morning before 9;00 AM Tuesday
     
  6. Harmony 2

    Harmony 2 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    Good morning! Shiny new thread to start the day...

    [​IMG]

    Please continue discussion here..



    link


     
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  7. Amandaaa

    Amandaaa Verified Attorney

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    The threads keep changing faster and faster!

    Glad to see we’re getting *some* kind of movement on the autopsy reports...

    On that issue - I would NOT read into anything regarding the relationship between the autopsy report and the initial charges. I would not have expected anything to change, one way or another.

    The autopsy reports will contain some pertinent details to demonstrate the manner/cause of death and *maybe* (hopefully?) even some details that would either point toward - or away from - a particular person being the killer.

    Remember, the autopsy reports are just one piece of the puzzle. While it would be great if the report could definitively prove who killed the girls, that’s just not how it works.

    I would expect the charges to remain the same, as initially filed.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2018
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  8. DexterMorgan

    DexterMorgan Well-Known Member

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    Nice try Amandaa. But CW is guilty, guilty, guilty. :)
     
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  9. Thepoet

    Thepoet Well-Known Member

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    Good morning!

    I've spend considerable time thinking about the difference in visibility of Shanann and Chris. We know a lot about her, before and after CW. We know very little either way, about him. He is not the norm. There should be school mates, co-workers, acquaintances, etc., that are unconnected enough, that LE doesn't care if they talk. But, there's not. It's almost as if, other than the crime, he doesn't exist. Even in SW's life he was more like a cardboard cut-out in the background, a prop. Other than an anonymous VI and an AP, what do we have? There may be significance in this when applied to the crime. Did he finally grow tired of being "no one", in his mind? Was husband and father not enough?

    Anyway, perhaps we'll learn more from the trial.
     
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  10. Thepoet

    Thepoet Well-Known Member

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    I'm going to be watching very closely the next couple of weeks because I believe if there is anything in the autopsy that supports CW's version, at the very least, his attornies will be asking for bail. What do you thonk?

    I don't believe there will anything in the autopsy that will change things, because I'm convinced he killed them all. But I'll still be paying attention, because if the defense makes no moves. I'll believe that to be significant.
     
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  11. MerryB

    MerryB Well-Known Member

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    You obviously have your mind made up.

    But the truth is, even if there are marks on those little girls’ necks from long acrylic fingernails (for example), the Prosecution (and people who already have their theories set in stone, like you) will say he put them there.

    If there already is so much irrefutable evidence that he did it, why would the autopsy results potentially alter the charges?

    JMO
     
  12. Amandaaa

    Amandaaa Verified Attorney

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    Lol I understand your position but this has nothing to do with him being guilty - or not.

    I would not expect charges to be dropped unless/until there was some kind of MAJOR exculpatory revelation like a video of SW killing the girls, or google search on her phone (while in Arizona) regarding strangulation etc. (and even then I’m not sure that would affect the charges).

    An autopsy report is just one of many pieces of this ridiculously complicated puzzle. Assuming the manner of death is actually determined to be strangulation, that fits within the story of EITHER side.

    Other details (size of hands or fingernail marks etc) would not result in the charges being dropped (there is no “reduced” - they either allege he killed them or not - and I don’t see this relating to premeditation)... they would be utilized by the defense in order to try to introduce reasonable doubt.
     
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  13. riolove77

    riolove77 Verified Attorney

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    My opinion is that he really was what you say...sort of a passive, "cardboard cutout" figure in most places in life. Thus, those who do know him probably just feel they never really knew him well enough and that's why they didn't see it coming. As such, why would they put their neck on the line to even admit to knowing him/defending him? I would want no part of it, that's for sure! So I think you're right. He probably knew what he was, and SW's glowing personality just made him realize it more and subsequently resent her for it. And by extension, her children (even though they are HIS children too...).
     
  14. MerryB

    MerryB Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for your expert opinion, Amandaaa. I always enjoy reading your legal insights.
     
  15. Thepoet

    Thepoet Well-Known Member

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    Actually there is a significant amount of irrefutable evidence; CW confessed to killing SW and Nico, he confessed to moving and hiding the bodies, he's lied and admitted to lies. He was in an affair. There is the sheet at the burial site. There is evidence collected that supports his confessions and proves his lies.

    I don't believe the DA will try to hide or manipulate evidence. They have been very careful so far.
     
  16. mickey2942

    mickey2942 Well-Known Member

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    Nothing new, why was CW held with no bond or bail?

    1. The evidence against him for the crime was absolutely ironclad?
    2. He is considered a flight risk?
    3. He is considered a suicide risk?
    4. Is he considered a danger to the community?
    It is interesting that McDonald, who also killed his two daughters and pregnant wife, was out on bond. However, this crime was over 40 years ago.
     
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  17. Thepoet

    Thepoet Well-Known Member

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    Good post. Kudos.
     
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  18. Amandaaa

    Amandaaa Verified Attorney

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    Thanks - I am here to see if I can offer anything based on my professional experience and understanding of the legal process. I’m trying to be as impartial as I can and minimize any personal opinions/thoughts.

    The legal system is fairly complicated - often times (especially in criminal cases) there are routine motions and objections based on constitutional issues or potential defenses - to the uninitiated, they may look suspicious but in all reality they’re just a sign of good representation and our judicial process at work.
     
  19. MerryB

    MerryB Well-Known Member

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    I don’t think any of those things you listed are in question.

    Where the discrepancy lies is between who the Prosecution says killed the girls and who the Defense says did it.
     
  20. JudgeJudi

    JudgeJudi Well-Known Member

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    @Mrspratcher

    “IIRC, the 65k salary was @ the time of filing the 2015 bankruptcy. We don't know what he was making at the time of the murders. I too would like to know what his salary/financial status was at the time of the murders”.

    Financial details for 2016 and 2017 don’t appear to have surfaced yet, but numerous articles state that he was earning between $61,500 - $63,000 in 2015. Additional expenses since 2015 would obviously include childcare and increased medical expenses.

    Documents reveal they sought Chapter 7 bankruptcy protection in July 2015, claiming liabilities that totaled $448,820. At the time, CW reported earning a monthly salary of around $5,400 from Anadarko Petroleum.

    When they filed for bankruptcy, SW worked at Children’s Hospital Colorado, earning a monthly salary of $2,977. But for reasons not made clear in the filing, their reported combined income was tumbling — from $147,256 in fiscal year 2013, down to $90,789 in fiscal 2014, and then to $40,491 at the time of their 2015 filing.

    In Colorado, a Chapter 7 filing, if approved by the court, allows debtors to hold onto and keep making payments on assets such as a house and car but offers a “fresh start” by eliminating other debts, according to ColoradoBankruptcy.com.

    Their listed debts and some of their assets as at July 2015 are set out in the article. It was sad to learn that they valued little Dieter at $5. For me, a family pet is precious … $5!!!!!

    https://people.com/crime/shanann-chris-watts-bankruptcy-filing-2015/

    They said their nearly $3,000 mortgage and $600 in monthly car payments formed the bulk of their $4,900 in monthly expenses.

    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/aug/16/christopher-watts-shanann-watts-filed-bankruptcy-2/\

    The bankruptcy case was closed in October 2015.
     
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