Found Deceased CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #39

Discussion in 'Located Persons Discussion' started by ColoGirl, Aug 16, 2018.

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  1. ColoGirl

    ColoGirl Well-Known Member

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  2. Tricia

    Tricia Owner Websleuths.com Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    Hey Everyone,

    A bit of clarification.

    Please, no more discussion on the viability of Shanann's company or whether her company was or wasn't a pyramid scheme. No more digging up documents or complaints or anything to do with the function of the company. The fact is Shanann's company is not what we are discussing.

    If want to discuss if job stress may have contributed to Shanann and Chris' relationship problems please make sure it is in the realm of reality and not the Twilight Zone.

    Thank you,
    Tricia
     
  3. gitana1

    gitana1 Verified Attorney

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    I am posting the evidence we know of again as some have asked. If anyone has other evidence to add please copy and add.

    Evidence of triple murder:

    1. Dad claims he saw a blue child on a baby monitor at night.

    2. The coincidence of two people, unrelated by blood, both reacting to something in a short span of time by losing their minds and committing homicide, defies reason.

    3. The coincidence of those same people both committing homicide in the exact same manner -strangulation- is unlikely.

    4. A father passionate enough with love for his children, to kill at the sight of them being harmed, would be desperate beyond reason to save them. But:
    a. Dad failed to call 911 to try to save his children. Even if he thought they were beyond help, a parentslove is so intense they will desperately and irrationally try for help that will never come.
    b. There is no account of him throwing off the mother and working desperately to revive them or resuscitate them. Hell, total strangers have performed CPR on a child's corpse in rigor. (Cooper Harris case). But a passionately loving dad didn't even try in this case?

    5. The dad failed to call 911 after killing his wife in a supposed fury of emotion.

    6. Dad also failed to run screaming onto the lawn for help or in anguish.
    In cases of such Greek tragedy magnitude either 5 or 6 usually comes into play.

    7. This entire scene - the "emotional argument", the vicious strangulation of two children, the father witnessing the incomprehensible and reacting with murderous fury and anguish - all of it was totally silent. Except for the poor dog howling that night. How do we know? Because the houses are in close proximity and neighbors mentioned hearing nothing but the dog the next day IIRC.

    8. CW did not scream or wail in anguish so great that it caused him to murder his wife. Not one report of such sounds.

    9. CW supposedly lost his mind in grief and anguish. However he regained it in moments in a manner that does not comport with a true mental break. In cases we have seen where people lose it and commit murder, they are typically either wailing on the lawn and to 911 operators or they are in an apparent psychotic state- not lying about what happened, not covering it up, not able to function normally at all. See thumbnail of Julie Schenecker as an example of what this looks like. Police interview Julie Schenecker after kids found dead

    10. CW, after such an insanely, horrific Greek tragedy of a scene, calmly loaded up the bodies of his wife and children in order to conceal their deaths and dispose of them. We know this because a neighbor stated she witnessed him leaving. (No reports of wailing and she said, IIRC, the truck drove normally. So no veering, spinning of tires or other signs of lack of composure). And it's apparently on video.

    11. CW, a man passionately in love enough with his kids to erupt in murderous rage when they're harmed, did not attempt to give them a burial that comports psychologically with the love and bond parents have with their kids. Death Rituals Reported by White, Black, and Hispanic Parents Following the ICU Death of an Infant or Child
    A Global History of Child Death

    12. Instead he dumps them in two separate vats of oil. Not together. No way to commemorate their lives. Concealed. Discarded. In a manner that veers from any known traditional burial rite of any kind.

    13. CW went to work and monitored the ring video of his house. After the horrific Greek tragedy he just endured. He went to work. And monitored the video of his front door.

    14. CW left a few voice messages and sent some texts to the wife he knew was dead, thus calmly concealing what happened.

    15. CW calmly called SW's friend after she came to the door and he saw her on the ring video. He asked what was going on. We know this because he stated as much and this is corroborated by the friend.

    16. CW rushed home - blowing stop signs and with beating heart, according to him- when CW came to the house and expressed alarm. The first time we have heard of a hint of emotion on his part since the horrific murders of his kids supposedly by his wife and his heat of passion killing of her, occurs when he the authorities are about to get involved.

    17. CW cooly lied to the friend about where SW was supposed to be that day and why she wasn't at home. After he lost his mind the night before. He is calm and able to work to conceal those events.

    18. There is not one hint of brief reactive psychosis or drug induced psychosis in CW's demeanor and behavior since 5:15 am the morning of the deaths, nor the next day as he gives calm and detailed interviews to the media. His pupils are normal. He is not slurring speech. He does not have a vacant stare. He exhibits no delusions or paranoia. He is not showing emotional lability. (I'm no expert in psychology but have seen a few psychotic people due to psychotic breaks or drugs and it's easy to research).

    19. CW shows no anguish, depression, grief, concern, sadness or despair during his stoic media interviews, despite having supposedly been so deranged by his passionate love for his kids that he killed their attacker. His eyes are dry. Not red. No signs of puffiness from weeping. His face is smooth and calm. He looks well rested. No bags under his eyes. He smiles. He grins. He smirks. All with the knowledge that his insane wife savagely murdered his precious babies causing him to lose his mind with anguish. And with the knowledge that the people he loved so fiercely it caused him to kill, are rotting in separate vats of oil.

    20. CW calmly and continuously lies to the media about the whereabouts of his dead wife and dead children.

    21. CW systematically works with LE to track down his wife and kids. Brainstorming. Supplying numbers and addresses. Calling people. All the while knowing they are dead and decomposing.

    22. CW is questioned and lies about having an affair. A motive in many murders of wives.

    23. SW was pregnant. (A circumstance present in vast numbers of murders of spouses or parents by men).

    24. Some people and report that CW seemed distant with his wife and kids in the weeks leading up to this monstrous event.

    25. CW was not hospitalized for any reason after this tragedy.

    A couple of things from the CO model jury instructions:

    D:01 DIRECT AND CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE—NO DISTINCTION

    A fact may be proven by either direct or circumstantial evidence. Under the law, both are acceptable ways to prove something. Neither is necessarily more reliable than the other.


    E:03 PRESUMPTION OF INNOCENCE, BURDEN OF PROOF, AND REASONABLE DOUBT

    Reasonable doubt means a doubt based upon reason and common sense which arises from a fair and rational consideration of all of the evidence, or the lack of evidence, in the case. It is a doubt which is not a vague, speculative or imaginary doubt, but such a doubt as would cause reasonable people to hesitate to act in matters of importance to themselves.

    https://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/Supreme_Court/Committees/Criminal_Jury_Instructions/2017/COLJI-Crim 2017 - Final.pdf
     

    Attached Files:

  4. liltexans

    liltexans Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Welcome to all new members. Please take a moment to familiarize yourselves with our Rules and Terms of Service (TOS).

    Do NOT personalize your posts or direct them in any way toward another poster. This is not Facebook. Be respectful whether you agree with another poster or not. We have a helpful "ignore" feature if you can't stand to read a particular poster's thoughts. Otherwise, just scroll and roll if you do not have anything constructive to contribute to the line of discussion.

    Do not tell others how or what to post. Do not attempt to moderate the thread yourselves. Those are all TOS violations. Use the "Report" feature if you have a problem with a post or another poster and let the moderators handle it.

    Do NOT bring rumors and gossip here from Facebook. It is against TOS and it serves no purpose here other than to stir the pot. We are allowing discussion of the defense put forward by CW's legal team, but we will not allow or tolerate any bashing of SW or her children. Leave that nonsense on Facebook or expect to receive warning points and possibly a timeout.

    Thank you.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2018
  5. Tricia

    Tricia Owner Websleuths.com Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    NEW RULES! EVERYONE, PLEASE READ ASAP

    Hi Everyone,

    To say the Watts case has been a challenge is an understatement.

    I'll get right to the point.

    Ther have been so many pointless alerts, alerts by the same people against the same people, that Websleuths has come very close to the point of shutting down because we did not have the staff to cover the rest of the forum.

    Really. I'm not exaggerating.

    The Watts discussion had divided members as I have never seen before.

    We have some new rules. New rules for the Watts thread only.

    1 - You may alert on the same person twice in a current thread. If you go to alert a third time on that same person in the same thread, you must not alert. You have to ignore the person or scroll by. If the post is bad enough someone else will alert on it. If it works out to where some of the posts stand that should have been alerted on oh well.
    If you do alert more than two times on the same person on the same thread then it is an automatic FIVE DAY TIMEOUT.

    2 - We are starting fresh. No more Facebook drama. No drama from anywhere period. This thread is now a drama free zone

    3 - No more talking about other cases unless there is a legit reason to do so.

    4 - No more off-topic posts and this includes portions of your life you decide to reveal.

    5 - If you speculate on some aspect of this case your speculation must be based in reality. I think Chris and Shanann are lizard people from another planet is not a speculation based in reality. Did Chris and Shanann have money issues is a very logical speculation. If you are not sure whether you should speculate or not I would say do not. If you have any hesitation about your post please do not hit the reply button on the post.

    6 - Did I mention the new rule about alerts on the Watts thread only? You may alert two times on one poster per Watts discussion thread. If you alert a third on the same poster on the same thread it is an automatic FIVE -DAY timeout. Let someone else alert. If it is bad enough someone will catch it I promise.

    7 - Remember the "Ignore" feature is your friend. Use it, please?

    8 - If you mention any Facebook post, if you mention a story from Facebook, if you mention something from a random Facebook account that has not been approved by Websleuths first it is an automatic FIVE DAY time out.

    9 - We may add to this list. For right now this is everything I can think of at the moment.

    Thank you,
    Tricia.
    P.S. The new thread will be ready to go in the morning before 9;00 AM Tuesday
     
  6. Harmony 2

    Harmony 2 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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  7. liltexans

    liltexans Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    MOD NOTE

    This is friendly reminder to stay on topic and stop the personalized posts and bickering. Step away from the keyboard for a while if you find that you are getting agitated.

    Also, please do not discuss the possible motivations or identities of any VIs unless the VIs themselves decide to tell us those details. Keep your VI discussion limited to the content of their posts, not speculation about why they may or may not have said something.

    Thank you.
     
  8. liltexans

    liltexans Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    MOD NOTE

    And now for a slightly less friendly reminder. Discussing moderation on a thread is a major TOS violation that results in an automatic timeout.

    If you have concerns about moderation, please alert on the post that concerns you or privately message any moderator and we will be happy to help.

    The next person to bring up moderation or whether or not someone was treated fairly or whether or not posts were removed, will be timed out.
     
  9. liltexans

    liltexans Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Let's leave CW's parents out of this discussion at this time except for anything reported by mainstream media about them. For example, I think it was reported at the beginning of this case that CW spoke with his father before making his confession. That is fine to discuss, with a link to the article or news video.

    Do not speculate about why CW's family has or has not spoken out publicly or any of their supposed actions. They are considered victims at this time. We have no evidence that anyone in CW's family had any prior knowledge that CW was going to murder anyone or that they helped CW after the murders occurred.

    I'm going to give CW's family the benefit of the doubt that they are likely in shock at the events that have occurred.
     
  10. liltexans

    liltexans Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    STOP the parenting debate now, everyone. This is one of the fastest ways to get a thread shut down. Do you all remember the recent family annihilator case of the Hart family? The 2 moms who drove their entire family off a cliff, killing everyone? We no longer have an open thread for that case primarily because members made everything personal and turned the thread into a giant parenting debate and pretty much forgot about the missing and murdered children.

    We're not going to do that in this case, okay? When you or I or my next door neighbor puts their children to bed or wakes them up does not matter. Whether we give our kids sugar or think it's poison does not matter.

    Please stay on topic. This is about Shan'ann's murder and the murder of her beautiful children. It's not about you, me, or anyone else. Don't take posts personally.
     
    La Louve, Lucyray, Barnabas and 14 others like this.
  11. liltexans

    liltexans Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Please continue the discussion here and please keep all of the previous posts on this page and all previous moderator warnings in mind before you post.
     
  12. dixiegirl1035

    dixiegirl1035 Well-Known Member

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    @Mrspratcher
    @gitana1
    @Alethea
    @Bill Carson

    Where I live, it is not a one-party state. Is Colorado as to a one-party State to record something? I'm still trying to figure out why perhaps she is listed on the witness list as the deceased? And somebody else brought up thread that perhaps she recorded something.

    Would the one-party/two party/mixed laws be thrown out the window if she recorded something and it was relevant to the prosecution?

    Do you have any insight other than that why she is on the witness list?

    ETA, my heart still goes out to those young girls that were murdered and the one video and audio the murderer perhaps
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2018
  13. sun16

    sun16 Well-Known Member

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    I can see why you do. I was very surprised by the gay relationship in The Staircase, so I’ll probably be wrong about CW too. Who knows what all crazy stuff we’ll learn!
     
  14. rainynights

    rainynights Well-Known Member

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    Welcome realhumanbeing, and great post (quoted above) from the previous thread.

    There's been a lot of talk throughout the threads of CW's words seeming to have a lot of truth within them, but the thought of taking CW's words according to his version of events and flipping them had never even crossed my mind.

    It's very chilling to think about, had CW in a sick way actually recounted what SW saw that night in the monitor (or sadly, in real life). Jmo
     
  15. searchinGirl

    searchinGirl Well-Known Member

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    As far as I know Colorado is a one-party State when it comes to recording a conversation. What is considerably less clear in my mind is how Alexa, Siri, Echo, etc. may factor into this situation.
     
  16. NuttMegg

    NuttMegg Well-Known Member

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    Found Deceased - CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #38

    Maybe he had teased the AP with stories of how they could finally go public, eat out, do everything like real partners do, because he had broken up with SW while in SC. So here comes SW all pretty & preggers with the happy giggly kids, no apparent change on her blogs, goes on a business trip after a couple of days, and not only does the AP not have him to usher her around in public, now he has the KIDS too! It just seems so obvious to me that either Saturday night or Sunday she dumped him and he had never been so angry in his life. (IMO IMO)
    After a 10 month affair, it might turn out that more than just 1 person was in the family way.
    I still don't know where to look up the Saturday night truth about baby sitter, yes or no, and where.
     
  17. MsBetsy

    MsBetsy Well-Known Member

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    Usually people who tell lies include as much truth as possible. It makes it much easier to be consistent and remember the lie. If it were a complete fabrication it would be too hard to keep the story straight. He obviously knew what the kids looked like, so all he had to do was switch the story around. Blaming the victim is also very common among killers. Sometimes they do it in very subtle, indirect ways and sometimes it is obvious. Jmo
     
  18. Amonet

    Amonet Well-Known Member

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    Coping over this post from the last thread, it's got me thinking.

    CW says he went downstairs and there's a baby monitor downstairs that he saw things on....I thought earlier it was said that the baby monitor was on Shanann's side of the bed. So what is the significance of a downstairs monitor and him going downstairs and looking in it down there? What could that mean in this part-truths scenario?

    And the other thing is CW saying he saw one of the girls 'blue' on the monitor.

    Did Shanann look in the downstairs monitor when she came home? Is she the one who saw something on the monitor and shouted for him as she ran up the stairs to check on the girls?

    I would think that if a parent looked on the monitor and saw something amiss with a child that they'd run to that child before checking the second child? Say she saw the child laying oddly and thought maybe she'd had a fit or an asthma attack, why assume something had also happened to the other child? And if the monitor is something where you change channels, then that's a question he needs to answer in his version where it's him checking the monitor and seeing her 'actively strangling' the second child? Why would you check the second channel if you'd already seen something scarily amiss with the first child? I'm not a parent so I don't know what most parents would do in that situation?

    The other thing is the blue skin. Why would he say that? He saw the bodies when he was strangling them... he might have strangled them in the dark? He might have put the blankets over the bodies in a darkened room and carried them down to the truck covered up? Then he wouldn't have seen the blue or known the extent of it? I think this helps, because it's such a strange lie to tell to say he saw the child blue on a blue-screen monitor, especially when it's not usual for the body to turn completely blue as if you were looking at the child on a blue-screen monitor, and yet that's pretty much what he's describing. This doesn't feel like the precise explanation for it, but I think it's in the ballpark.

    If Shanann is the one who saw something amiss on the downstairs monitor and rushed upstairs to the first child, if she got into the room and turned the light on and the child was dead she probably would have noticed a bluish tinge to the lips...it's something she'd know to look out for with two children with asthma, and she'd know it doesn't necessarily mean the child is dead but instead indicates lack of oxygen in the blood. So if she gets into that room to check on the first child who she saw in the monitor downstairs, she turns the light on and runs over to the child and looks, she sees the blueish lips and shouts, "her lips are blue, we need to call 911!" And CW turns this into seeing the child blue on the monitor. Which again could be in the ballpark for getting to a real explanation of that oddity in his confession.

    Thoughts?
     
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  19. Jennifer17

    Jennifer17 Former Member

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    <modsnip - removed quoted post and reference to it>

    I am a bit puzzled by some people who can believe that he killed them all and dumped his little girls in crude oil vats and was having an affair with a woman but just cannot accept that he had a same sex affair.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 5, 2018
  20. rainynights

    rainynights Well-Known Member

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    In response to your recent post (carried over from previous thread since it's now closed), I don't think it's a wild thought at all, and I think there are many who would agree.

    I could easily see how an argument may have begun at some point after SW got home. She was tired. Long day of travel. I’d imagine SW's priorities would have been to check on the girls, and then go directly to bed. She had a doctor's appointment scheduled for 10am the next morning. Anything (or anyone) standing in her way of doing either of those things, IMO, could have created an argument.

    And had an argument started in that scenario, I could see SW (being tired from a long day of travel) exposing her plan to separate. And not only that, but that she was going to take the girls and stay with a friend, especially if CW had displayed any concerning behavior to her at that point, or if he was acting in a way that she felt warranted her leaving with the girls for a while. Either of those two things: SW having an intent to separate, and/or saying she was taking the girls somewhere else. Those might have been the words that CW couldn't control himself over.

    And with CW’s history of lies (being actively involved in an affair with the co-worker at the time of the murder), living a double life, potential financial issues, and a confirmed 3rd baby on the way, I believe CW snapped. Jmo

    ETA: I believe that CW was still in a relationship with the AP at the time of the murders. In the warrantless arrest affidavit, it was discovered that CW was "actively involved in an affair with a co-worker." I'd think that if the AP dumped him, it would have been reported as "previously" or "recently involved." Jmo
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2018
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