Found Deceased CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #44

Discussion in 'Located Persons Discussion' started by ColoGirl, Aug 16, 2018.

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  1. ColoGirl

    ColoGirl Well-Known Member

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  2. gitana1

    gitana1 Verified Attorney

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    I am posting the evidence we know of again as some have asked. If anyone has other evidence to add please copy and add.

    Evidence of triple murder:

    1. Dad claims he saw a blue child on a baby monitor at night.

    2. The coincidence of two people, unrelated by blood, both reacting to something in a short span of time by losing their minds and committing homicide, defies reason.

    3. The coincidence of those same people both committing homicide in the exact same manner -strangulation- is unlikely.

    4. A father passionate enough with love for his children, to kill at the sight of them being harmed, would be desperate beyond reason to save them. But:
    a. Dad failed to call 911 to try to save his children. Even if he thought they were beyond help, a parentslove is so intense they will desperately and irrationally try for help that will never come.
    b. There is no account of him throwing off the mother and working desperately to revive them or resuscitate them. Hell, total strangers have performed CPR on a child's corpse in rigor. (Cooper Harris case). But a passionately loving dad didn't even try in this case?

    5. The dad failed to call 911 after killing his wife in a supposed fury of emotion.

    6. Dad also failed to run screaming onto the lawn for help or in anguish.
    In cases of such Greek tragedy magnitude either 5 or 6 usually comes into play.

    7. This entire scene - the "emotional argument", the vicious strangulation of two children, the father witnessing the incomprehensible and reacting with murderous fury and anguish - all of it was totally silent. Except for the poor dog howling that night. How do we know? Because the houses are in close proximity and neighbors mentioned hearing nothing but the dog the next day IIRC.

    8. CW did not scream or wail in anguish so great that it caused him to murder his wife. Not one report of such sounds.

    9. CW supposedly lost his mind in grief and anguish. However he regained it in moments in a manner that does not comport with a true mental break. In cases we have seen where people lose it and commit murder, they are typically either wailing on the lawn and to 911 operators or they are in an apparent psychotic state- not lying about what happened, not covering it up, not able to function normally at all. See thumbnail of Julie Schenecker as an example of what this looks like. Police interview Julie Schenecker after kids found dead

    10. CW, after such an insanely, horrific Greek tragedy of a scene, calmly loaded up the bodies of his wife and children in order to conceal their deaths and dispose of them. We know this because a neighbor stated she witnessed him leaving. (No reports of wailing and she said, IIRC, the truck drove normally. So no veering, spinning of tires or other signs of lack of composure). And it's apparently on video.

    11. CW, a man passionately in love enough with his kids to erupt in murderous rage when they're harmed, did not attempt to give them a burial that comports psychologically with the love and bond parents have with their kids. Death Rituals Reported by White, Black, and Hispanic Parents Following the ICU Death of an Infant or Child
    A Global History of Child Death

    12. Instead he dumps them in two separate vats of oil. Not together. No way to commemorate their lives. Concealed. Discarded. In a manner that veers from any known traditional burial rite of any kind.

    13. CW went to work and monitored the ring video of his house. After the horrific Greek tragedy he just endured. He went to work. And monitored the video of his front door.

    14. CW left a few voice messages and sent some texts to the wife he knew was dead, thus calmly concealing what happened.

    15. CW calmly called SW's friend after she came to the door and he saw her on the ring video. He asked what was going on. We know this because he stated as much and this is corroborated by the friend.

    16. CW rushed home - blowing stop signs and with beating heart, according to him- when CW came to the house and expressed alarm. The first time we have heard of a hint of emotion on his part since the horrific murders of his kids supposedly by his wife and his heat of passion killing of her, occurs when he the authorities are about to get involved.

    17. CW cooly lied to the friend about where SW was supposed to be that day and why she wasn't at home. After he lost his mind the night before. He is calm and able to work to conceal those events.

    18. There is not one hint of brief reactive psychosis or drug induced psychosis in CW's demeanor and behavior since 5:15 am the morning of the deaths, nor the next day as he gives calm and detailed interviews to the media. His pupils are normal. He is not slurring speech. He does not have a vacant stare. He exhibits no delusions or paranoia. He is not showing emotional lability. (I'm no expert in psychology but have seen a few psychotic people due to psychotic breaks or drugs and it's easy to research).

    19. CW shows no anguish, depression, grief, concern, sadness or despair during his stoic media interviews, despite having supposedly been so deranged by his passionate love for his kids that he killed their attacker. His eyes are dry. Not red. No signs of puffiness from weeping. His face is smooth and calm. He looks well rested. No bags under his eyes. He smiles. He grins. He smirks. All with the knowledge that his insane wife savagely murdered his precious babies causing him to lose his mind with anguish. And with the knowledge that the people he loved so fiercely it caused him to kill, are rotting in separate vats of oil.

    20. CW calmly and continuously lies to the media about the whereabouts of his dead wife and dead children.

    21. CW systematically works with LE to track down his wife and kids. Brainstorming. Supplying numbers and addresses. Calling people. All the while knowing they are dead and decomposing.

    22. CW is questioned and lies about having an affair. A motive in many murders of wives.

    23. SW was pregnant. (A circumstance present in vast numbers of murders of spouses or parents by men).

    24. Some people and report that CW seemed distant with his wife and kids in the weeks leading up to this monstrous event.

    25. CW was not hospitalized for any reason after this tragedy.

    A couple of things from the CO model jury instructions:

    D:01 DIRECT AND CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE—NO DISTINCTION

    A fact may be proven by either direct or circumstantial evidence. Under the law, both are acceptable ways to prove something. Neither is necessarily more reliable than the other.


    E:03 PRESUMPTION OF INNOCENCE, BURDEN OF PROOF, AND REASONABLE DOUBT

    Reasonable doubt means a doubt based upon reason and common sense which arises from a fair and rational consideration of all of the evidence, or the lack of evidence, in the case. It is a doubt which is not a vague, speculative or imaginary doubt, but such a doubt as would cause reasonable people to hesitate to act in matters of importance to themselves.

    https://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/Supreme_Court/Committees/Criminal_Jury_Instructions/2017/COLJI-Crim 2017 - Final.pdf
     

    Attached Files:

  3. liltexans

    liltexans Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Please continue the discussion here and please keep the following points in mind:

    Welcome to all new members. Please take a moment to familiarize yourselves with our Rules and Terms of Service (TOS).

    Do NOT personalize your posts or direct them in any way toward another poster. This is not Facebook. Be respectful whether you agree with another poster or not. We have a helpful "ignore" feature if you can't stand to read a particular poster's thoughts. Otherwise, just scroll and roll if you do not have anything constructive to contribute to the line of discussion.

    Do not tell others how or what to post. Do not attempt to moderate the thread yourselves. Those are all TOS violations. Use the "Report" feature if you have a problem with a post or another poster and let the moderators handle it.

    Do NOT bring rumors and gossip here from Facebook. It is against TOS and it serves no purpose here other than to stir the pot. We are allowing discussion of the defense put forward by CW's legal team, but we will not allow or tolerate any bashing of SW or her children. Leave that nonsense on Facebook or expect to receive warning points and possibly a timeout.

    Thank you.
     
  4. Tricia

    Tricia Owner Websleuths.com Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    NEW RULES! EVERYONE, PLEASE READ ASAP

    Hi Everyone,

    To say the Watts case has been a challenge is an understatement.

    I'll get right to the point.

    Ther have been so many pointless alerts, alerts by the same people against the same people, that Websleuths has come very close to the point of shutting down because we did not have the staff to cover the rest of the forum.

    Really. I'm not exaggerating.

    The Watts discussion had divided members as I have never seen before.

    We have some new rules. New rules for the Watts thread only.

    1 - You may alert on the same person twice in a current thread. If you go to alert a third time on that same person in the same thread, you must not alert. You have to ignore the person or scroll by. If the post is bad enough someone else will alert on it. If it works out to where some of the posts stand that should have been alerted on oh well.
    If you do alert more than two times on the same person on the same thread then it is an automatic FIVE DAY TIMEOUT.

    2 - We are starting fresh. No more Facebook drama. No drama from anywhere period. This thread is now a drama free zone

    3 - No more talking about other cases unless there is a legit reason to do so.

    4 - No more off-topic posts and this includes portions of your life you decide to reveal.

    5 - If you speculate on some aspect of this case your speculation must be based in reality. I think Chris and Shanann are lizard people from another planet is not a speculation based in reality. Did Chris and Shanann have money issues is a very logical speculation. If you are not sure whether you should speculate or not I would say do not. If you have any hesitation about your post please do not hit the reply button on the post.

    6 - Did I mention the new rule about alerts on the Watts thread only? You may alert two times on one poster per Watts discussion thread. If you alert a third on the same poster on the same thread it is an automatic FIVE -DAY timeout. Let someone else alert. If it is bad enough someone will catch it I promise.

    7 - Remember the "Ignore" feature is your friend. Use it, please?

    8 - If you mention any Facebook post, if you mention a story from Facebook, if you mention something from a random Facebook account that has not been approved by Websleuths first it is an automatic FIVE DAY time out.

    9 - We may add to this list. For right now this is everything I can think of at the moment.

    Thank you,
    Tricia.
    P.S. The new thread will be ready to go in the morning before 9;00 AM Tuesday
     
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  5. Gardener1850

    Gardener1850 Remembering Cupcake

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  6. Tricia

    Tricia Owner Websleuths.com Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    Thread #44 is ready to go.
     
  7. Cinnalauda

    Cinnalauda Usually just lurking

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  8. Cinnalauda

    Cinnalauda Usually just lurking

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    Sorry I don't know how to quote from a closed thread

    @Zella I hadn't thought about tying the "This has to stop" into the emotional conversation. Good line of thought. I had tied it to him trying to get the spotlight off him "This has to stop" - maybe a message to media, police eyeing him up? Didn't want any scrutiny and for it all to go away.

    "Thank you for doing this! As soon as I watched those interviews, I knew he was lying. And I'm sympathetic to nervous laughers and incoherent babblers/unemotional people because I am that way during moments of crisis, so I don't automatically assume any of that is a sign of guilt. But he had way too many verbal tells.

    I also found his "This has to stop!" statement interesting. It made no sense in context. He was discussing the "emotional conversation" and then rambled on at some length about wanting them back and if they're safe, they're coming back, and if not--that's when he interrupts himself with that declaration about it needing to stop. There was no indication anything like this had ever happened before, so it just seemed so odd.

    I have suspected that he repackaged details into his interviews and his statements, so I do think he saw the kids blue, but I think it's something he saw in person after he harmed them. I have wondered if "This has to stop" was something that came up in the "emotional conversation." I could easily see either one of them saying that to the other."
     
  9. PrimeSuspect

    PrimeSuspect Under the Milky Way

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    @RachB65
    I agree, Rach, I'm in my 50s too and I don't mind people sharing their lives on SM. I used the incorrect term, it's some people of any age who are judgemental of those who do share their lives over the net, they're applying their own unwritten rules and it's not fair, SW is an easy target, she's not around to defend herself. If SW wasn't such an avid user of SM these threads would look entirely different.
     
  10. Pi Thoughts

    Pi Thoughts Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
    Shanann Watts' father Frank Rzucek, pictured here reading a prepared statement in August, in September was named personal representative of his daughter's estate. Shanann Watts did not have a will prepared at the time of her death.

    In Colorado, the slayer statute would prevent Christopher Watts from benefitting from his wife's estate if he is convicted in her murder. But, if he is found not guilty, his wife's family still has legal options it could pursue against him.

    Shanann Watts' family could secure estate with slayer statute, or civil lawsuit if no conviction
     
  11. Mark Morris

    Mark Morris Well-Known Member

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    In the previous thread, some members alluded to feeling intimidated to put forward their theories as they differed from most peoples opinion. May I, in the interests of a healthy, respectful discussion propose what, I think IMO that hypothetical senario entails:
    CW makes the statement, as per affidavit, that he killed SW after she killed B&CCW.
    I'm interested in the possible timeline, please highlight where my assumptions are incorrect.

    630pm B&CCW put to bed (based on SM)
    630-9pm (TBC) CW makes a BBQ on the patio, eats etc (as per witness)
    10pm CW relaxing in the house expecting SW to return, makes a tweet at 10pm (see CW Twitter feed)
    11pm SW ETA, CW possibly told sometime previous to this that flight was delayed by up to 3 hours (speculation)
    11pm-12pm (estimate) CW goes to bed knowing SW will be late (speculation)
    148am SW returns home, leaves her shoes, case & purse downstairs and heads upstairs (as per NUA witness report & LE observations)
    150am SW joins CW in bed. CW stated in porch interview she "barely got into bed" and made no inference she slept on the loft sofa. (Porch interview)
    4am "Emotional conversation" ensues, as per CW affidavit, this was previously declared to be 5am in the porch interviews IIRC
    4am-430am (approx) CW informs SW about the affair and his wish to seperate, possibly told her of other extra-marital affairs as well (All speculation)
    430am (approx) CW doesn't wish to pursue the discussion, goes downstairs for a drink. (as per affidavit) CW leaves SW angry with rage/on medications/pregnant/emotional etc upstairs alone with the girls. (speculation)
    431am (approx) CW has a drink, returned to his bedroom to speak with Shanann again. While in the bedroom, via baby monitor located on Shanann's night stand, he observed Bella 'sprawled' out on her bed and blue and Shanann actively strangling Celeste.
    https://mediaassets.thedenverchanne...06.1715148282.1541154469-987309381.1540869920
    . He waits for a period (I speculate it's a few seconds) for the monitor display to switch to CCWs room and sees SW strangling CCW (Affidavit)
    431am (approx) CW rushes to CCW's room, upon seeing SW strangling CCW, proceeds to strangle SW (as per affidavit). This would have certainly happened without much noise (not reported by neighbours) or much of a struggle (not any significant marks on CW on Tuesday, IMO)
    440am (approx) CW in shock having killed SW & NLW, tries to recucitate CCW. After unsuccessfully doing so, CW checks on BW, confirms she is deceased. (Speculation)
    445am (approx) CW considers calling 911 but thinks if he gets LE involved that he will get blamed for all 3(4) deaths so decides to dispose of the bodies and pretend that SW disappeared with the girls, incase anybody asks where they are. (Speculation)
    445-515am CW begins to dispose of evidence, removing bed clothes, carrying/dragging corpses downstairs. Placing bedsheets & pillowcases in kitchen trash, removing main bed sheets etc
    515am CW loads bodies in rear of truck and drives to work at 530am to dispose of bodies. (Affidavit and witness statements/CCTV)
    Later that morning, CW makes a call to SW to ask how she is etc (Porch interview) without response.

    I think we all agree on the rest............. Is that about right?

    I'm open to ALL hypothesis/conjectures/opinions until we get further statements/evidence but can assure @TipplyLyn and any others who are apprehensive about defending CWs story that I am only interested in discussing the pros and cons of any hypothesis, but for that we need concrete suggestions. All I have seen so far is speculation about SWs personality based on SM videos. I am interested in exactly HOW members think events unfolded in this scenario so that I can come to MY OWN conclusions about how reasonable and plausible those ideas are. Please feel free to correct my timeline.

    ETA: Thank you @PrimeSuspect, edited 431am to be accurate
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2018
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  12. Tortoise

    Tortoise Well-Known Member

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    Didn't he allege he returned upstairs to speak to Shannan and then saw the baby monitor, therefore implying the monitor was in their/the master bedroom? (Even harder to believe because he would know immediately Shannan wasn't in there but proceed to enter the room anyway and stand watching the bedside monitor.)
     
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  13. Colorado303

    Colorado303 Verified Insider Watts Case

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    Mark, this is awesome! What a great tool. I imagine it accurately captures the timeline for scenarios matching CE’s confession and hope people that want to discuss those scenarios weigh in w/any changes/additions to it as well as their thoughts supporting those scenarios.

    For this timeline to be true an awful lot had to happen between 4:00 am and 5:15 am. I imagine would be humanly possible, but IMO highly unlikely. Looking forward to hearing from those that disagree.

    Thamks again!
     
  14. PrimeSuspect

    PrimeSuspect Under the Milky Way

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    That's right and a good point too. CW entering the bedroom doorway would see immediately Shanann wasn't there, so he goes over to look at the baby monitor because .......?

    After being allowed to speak to his father, Chris stated after he told Shanann he wanted a separation he walked downstairs for a moment and then returned to his bedroom to speak with Shanann again. While in the bedroom, via baby monitor located on Shanann's night stand, he observed Bella 'sprawled' out on her bed and blue and Shanann actively strangling Celeste.
    https://mediaassets.thedenverchanne...06.1715148282.1541154469-987309381.1540869920
     
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  15. Tortoise

    Tortoise Well-Known Member

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    I've also given some thought to the bedding previously. My immediate thought was that he removed it to hide say some staining or DNA. Then, because he left the bottom sheet in the field and didn't bury it or dispose of it, I settled on the reason that he took the sheet being to cover the bodies on his backseat in case he was stopped or someone looked inside. Imagine if a neighbor on an early morning jog stopped to talk to him for instance. So because I think the reason he took the sheet was to cover the bodies I don't think he removed it because he was thinking about any evidence on the sheets. Therefore I conclude that the bedding was probably tossed aside on the floor (say a duvet/quilt and pillows) to remove the mattress sheet, and he didn't actually get around to putting that duvet cover and pillow cases in the kitchen trash until he was alone in the house that evening. The bed was described as stripped purely because the mattress was now stripped, not referring to the state of the cover and pillows on the floor.

    The officers saw the bedding that day and looked at it to see if it showed any signs of foul play. I think it's unlikely it was in the trash already at that time and he threw them in the trash that night because there was no longer a full set in the house highlighting the suspicious disappearance of the bottom sheet.
     
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  16. Tortoise

    Tortoise Well-Known Member

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    I don't know how to find his tweet at 10pm. Can anyone enlighten me what it said, or point me to it please?
     
  17. Tortoise

    Tortoise Well-Known Member

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    Apologies, I've been misspelling Shanann's name. How ignorant of me.
     
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  18. Mark Morris

    Mark Morris Well-Known Member

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  19. MsBetsy

    MsBetsy Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. Why wouldn't he just go look for her instead of walking to the bedside table to look for her in the monitor?
     
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  20. MsBetsy

    MsBetsy Well-Known Member

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    True, and that is probably exactly why he changed the time from 5:00 to 4:00 when he told the officer what time he woke her up to have the emotional conversation, he quickly realized that would not be enough time.
     
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